Is Salvation a choice? If it is, whose choice is it ?

joeschmoe62 said:

Any thoughts ?

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Yes. Choose to love Jesus Christ of Nazareth or not. Your choice.

Blessings.

The one autonomous free will choice mature adults need to be able to make to complete their earthly objective is to humbly accept or reject God’s help (charity/mercy/grace/Love/forgiveness) as pure charity. In other words: sinful humans can choose to hang in there, be macho, pay the piper and take the punishment they fully deserve or they can wimp out, give up and surrender to their hated enemy, while they still hate their enemy (God) they are just willing to humbly accept their enemy’s undeserved pure charity. They still might feel they deserve from their enemy to be severely tortured to death, for their previous war crimes, yet they are willing to take undeserved charity. They are not being righteous, holy, glorious, honorable, worthy and noble in what they are doing, since it is for selfish reasons, they are willing to accept their enemy’s charity.

God is not forcing his charity on the sinner like some kind of shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, since that would not be Loving on God’s part nor would the sinner obtain Godly type Love in that manner. By accepting this Love in the form of forgiveness Jesus has taught us “…he who is forgiven much Loves much…” so humbly accepting pure undeserved forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt automatically results in the former sinner receiving an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) and thus fulfill the first part of sinners earthly objective.

Depends on what you really are asking. Are you asking if the person's choice causes salvation? I.e. are you asking if one's salvation hinges on the creature's choice?

Salvation is God's choice. (I'm a monergist). But, then, that does not mean that we do not choose it. Indeed we do, and if we do not in some sense choose what God gave us entirely by Grace, then we are not saved.

To me the saying is valid, that, "We do so because it is so".

bling said:

The one autonomous free will choice mature adults need to be able to make to complete their earthly objective is to humbly accept or reject God’s help (charity/mercy/grace/Love/forgiveness) as pure charity. In other words: sinful humans can choose to hang in there, be macho, pay the piper and take the punishment they fully deserve or they can wimp out, give up and surrender to their hated enemy, while they still hate their enemy (God) they are just willing to humbly accept their enemy’s undeserved pure charity. They still might feel they deserve from their enemy to be severely tortured to death, for their previous war crimes, yet they are willing to take undeserved charity. They are not being righteous, holy, glorious, honorable, worthy and noble in what they are doing, since it is for selfish reasons, they are willing to accept their enemy’s charity.

God is not forcing his charity on the sinner like some kind of shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, since that would not be Loving on God’s part nor would the sinner obtain Godly type Love in that manner. By accepting this Love in the form of forgiveness Jesus has taught us “…he who is forgiven much Loves much…” so humbly accepting pure undeserved forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt automatically results in the former sinner receiving an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) and thus fulfill the first part of sinners earthly objective.

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Notice the difference here, between how something those insisting on self-determinism posit has to be dressed up in innovation, to be palatable even to its advocate, vs the simple statement of Ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. They have to qualify and codify it, then misrepresent what God actually does, in order to defeat the notion of salvation entirely by Grace. Monergism.

joeschmoe62 said:

Any thoughts ?

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Salvation is synergistic, a co-operation of the individual with the Holy Spirit, who is wooing and persuading us to accept God's offer of salvation.

Your choice.

Jesus saved the collective whole, aka humanity, but every individual is on their own. You are responsible for your own sin and asking for forgiveness.

No because receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life (salvation) is by belief. And people simply do not choose their beliefs. When they come to believe something is true, they will then believe.
A person comes to believe in something when they have examined the evidence in favor of something. So in turn when they come to believe the evidence presented is true, they will believe.

A person can not believe something is true and then decide not to believe that it is true.

Knowledge in or about something does not equate belief in their knowledge about the something they have knowledge about.

Belief is persuasion and faith or believe mean being convinced that something is true

Can Someone Believe John 3:16 But Choose Not to Have Everlasting Life? - Grace Evangelical Society

George Meisinger on Belief as Persuasion - Grace Evangelical Society

Can Someone Believe That Faith Is Not Persuasion and Still Be Saved? - Grace Evangelical Society

Mark Quayle said:

Notice the difference here, between how something those insisting on self-determinism posit has to be dressed up in innovation, to be palatable even to its advocate, vs the simple statement of Ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. They have to qualify and codify it, then misrepresent what God actually does, in order to defeat the notion of salvation entirely by Grace. Monergism.

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I’m not sure what you are trying to get across with Eph. 2:8





People use Eph 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” to show “faith” is a gift and forget about verse 9 which says: “not by works, so that no one can boast.” The gift cannot be grammatical correct and be “faith”, but you do not have to know Greek, just look at verse 9. If “faith” were the gift then Paul is telling us faith cannot be worked for and earned which is not logical or discussed as even an option anywhere else. How would people go about working to obtain faith anyway (it is to quit working, trying to do it yourself and start trusting). The “gift” in Eph. 2:8 is the whole salvation process which Paul talks about in other places, showing people trying to earn salvation.



I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:



And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.









"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.

This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).



You can look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not among scholars.

Jeff Carr said:

Salvation is synergistic, a co-operation of the individual with the Holy Spirit, who is wooing and persuading us to accept God's offer of salvation.

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Thus, not quite entirely by grace, no?

bling said:

I’m not sure what you are trying to get across with Eph. 2:8





People use Eph 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” to show “faith” is a gift and forget about verse 9 which says: “not by works, so that no one can boast.” The gift cannot be grammatical correct and be “faith”, but you do not have to know Greek, just look at verse 9. If “faith” were the gift then Paul is telling us faith cannot be worked for and earned which is not logical or discussed as even an option anywhere else. How would people go about working to obtain faith anyway (it is to quit working, trying to do it yourself and start trusting). The “gift” in Eph. 2:8 is the whole salvation process which Paul talks about in other places, showing people trying to earn salvation.

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We've been through this before, many times, now, and every time, you ignore what you wish, deny what you wish, and cannot prove me wrong: The grammar indeed does say the gift is the grace. But, logically, then, if the gift (the grace), is through faith, then the faith is also gift. The faith does not "access" the gift, as you wish to paint the picture. I challenge you to show me the worthiness of your faith that springs from yourself, and is not generated by God himself within you. MY ability to do anything faithful is a joke, but what God does within me is entirely faithful.

bling said:

I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:



And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.

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Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8, ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)

​

Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8, kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)

​

Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)

"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.

This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).



You can look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not among scholars.

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I have yet to disagree with any of this, except for the illogical notion implied, that if the faith is not what the Greek says is gift, that it therefore is not gift. That is where you go wrong. Again, if salvation is not of ourselves, and the grace by which we are saved is gift, then the faith through which we are saved is also gift and not of ourselves —not by grammatical matchup, but by logical order of the sentence.

Maria Billingsley said:

Yes. Choose to love Jesus Christ of Nazareth or not. Your choice.

Blessings.

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We love because HE first loved us..

Here are some who are against free will and surely having a choice. Maybe they are looking at the words predestined used in the New Testament, which without understanding indicates that God chose certain people to be saved and certain people to be banned. Also when Jesus said all that the Father has given to him he will not lose any, without understanding indicates some were chosen for salvation and others were not.

Because God knows the beginning as well as the end he has already determined he has already judged each and every individual to. God already knows the choices that everyone has already made even those that haven't been born, he knows.

We from the creation of man until the judgment of man have been living out what God already knows we're going to do, he has seen it. He has judged it.

I tried telling a person if man could travel at the speed of light or even close to it time would slow down for that person while time continues on Earth at the same pace 5 years may have passed for him to 30 or 40 years for the person on Earth and if he could recard any individual's life he would know what they've done when he returns to earth. That is example how such a thing could be accomplished and not saying this is what God does - he is not subjected to time as man is. It traverses time.

Salvation is given freely and it is up to the individual. Choice is ours to accept or reject.

truthuprootsevil said:

Here are some who are against free will and surely having a choice.

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Strawman argument. "Against free will" does not translate to, nor imply, "against having sure (or even, real,) choice". But I would be curious to hear your explanation how anything can happen—and in this case, our real choices—apart from God's establishing them. Show me from Scripture.

truthuprootsevil said:

Maybe they are looking at the words predestined used in the New Testament, which without understanding indicates that God chose certain people to be saved and certain people to be banned. Also when Jesus said all that the Father has given to him he will not lose any, without understanding indicates some were chosen for salvation and others were not.

Because God knows the beginning as well as the end he has already determined he has already judged each and every individual to. God already knows the choices that everyone has already made even those that haven't been born, he knows.

We from the creation of man until the judgment of man have been living out what God already knows we're going to do, he has seen it. He has judged it.

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Does it happen out of nothing, for no reason, no cause, without God causing it? What makes you think God must depend on what he can see down the corridors of time, that somehow springs out of nothing? Did not God make all this?

truthuprootsevil said:

I tried telling a person if man could travel at the speed of light or even close to it time would slow down for that person while time continues on Earth at the same pace 5 years may have passed for him to 30 or 40 years for the person on Earth and if he could recard any individual's life he would know what they've done when he returns to earth. That is example how such a thing could be accomplished and not saying this is what God does - he is not subjected to time as man is. It traverses time.

Salvation is given freely and it is up to the individual. Choice is ours to accept or reject.

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The individual God has predestined to be his own, will indeed accept. That accepting, which is indeed an act of the same faith through which he is saved, does not bring the salvation about, nor the Grace of Eph 2:8,9, but the fellowship—the part of being 'in Christ' that we notice. We love him because he first loved us

Mark Quayle said:

Strawman argument. "Against free will" does not translate to, nor imply, "against having sure (or even, real,) choice". But I would be curious to hear your explanation how anything can happen—and in this case, our real choices—apart from God's establishing them. Show me from Scripture.
What Does the Bible Say About Choose Life? What Does the Bible Say About Choose Life?

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Mark Quayle said:

Does it happen out of nothing, for no reason, no cause, without God causing it?

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God is the cause, the reason for everything in existence. He allows mankind to make their own choices. The Bible from beginning to end is God almost begging man to choose him, to choose life to choose righteousness.

Mark Quayle said:

What makes you think God must depend on what he can see down the corridors of time, that somehow springs out of nothing? Did not God make all this?

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You ask what makes me think God must depend on what he can see down the corridors of time - other than saying it has already been done (choices made) there is nothing else that can be said, whether it is understood or unaccepted.
Not sure how "that springs out of nothing is related, to God knowing the beginning and the end."

Mark Quayle said:

The individual God has predestined to be his own, will indeed accept. That accepting, which is indeed an act of the same faith through which he is saved, does not bring the salvation about, nor the Grace of Eph 2:8,9, but the fellowship—the part of being 'in Christ' that we notice. We love him because he first loved us

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The Bible indicates God knew us before we were born. The Bible tells us that our names are already written in the Lamb's Book of Life no matter what point in time we're born and can be blotted out / erased.
BIBLE VERSES ABOUT LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE BIBLE VERSES ABOUT LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE

What Does the Bible Say About God Knew Us Before We Were Born? What Does the Bible Say About God Knew Us Before We Were Born?

truthuprootsevil said:

God is the cause, the reason for everything in existence. He allows mankind to make their own choices. The Bible from beginning to end is God almost begging man to choose him, to choose life to choose righteousness.

You ask what makes me think God must depend on what he can see down the corridors of time - other than saying it has already been done (choices made) there is nothing else that can be said, whether it is understood or unaccepted.
Not sure how "that springs out of nothing is related, to God knowing the beginning and the end."

The Bible indicates God knew us before we were born. The Bible tells us that our names are already written in the Lamb's Book of Life no matter what point in time we're born and can be blotted out / erased.
BIBLE VERSES ABOUT LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE BIBLE VERSES ABOUT LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE

What Does the Bible Say About God Knew Us Before We Were Born? What Does the Bible Say About God Knew Us Before We Were Born?

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Is God the cause of sin?

Jeff Carr said:

Is God the cause of sin?

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The one called Lucifer, Satan, the devil, is the CAUSE of rebellion / sin which spread to 1/3 of the Angels, and to mankind.

Now if you are referring to
Isaiah 45:7 KJV - I form the light, and create darkness: - Bible Gateway Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 45:7 - King James Version

Giving his creations the ability to think of their own will, to choose. He created Satan, so therefore he created evil. It is written Lucifer was blameless
UNTIL pride / iniquity was found in him.
Ezekiel 28:15 - Bible Gateway Ezekiel 28:15 - Bible Gateway

And when it is written God hardens one heart they are already full of iniquities / sins and unrepentant.

truthuprootsevil said:

The one called Lucifer, Satan, the devil, is the CAUSE of rebellion / sin which spread to 1/3 of the Angels, and to mankind.

Now if you are referring to
Isaiah 45:7 KJV - I form the light, and create darkness: - Bible Gateway Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 45:7 - King James Version

Giving his creations the ability to think of their own will, to choose. He created Satan, so therefore he created evil. It is written Lucifer was blameless
UNTIL pride / iniquity was found in him.
Ezekiel 28:15 - Bible Gateway Ezekiel 28:15 - Bible Gateway

And when it is written God hardens one heart they are already full of iniquities / sins and unrepentant.

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The reason I asked the question, 'is God the cause of sin', is because Mark Qualyle stated, 'God is the cause, the reason for everything'. I find that view very deterministic.

truthuprootsevil said:

What Does the Bible Say About Choose Life? What Does the Bible Say About Choose Life?

Click to expand...

truthuprootsevil said:

God is the cause, the reason for everything in existence. He allows mankind to make their own choices. The Bible from beginning to end is God almost begging man to choose him, to choose life to choose righteousness.

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If he is the cause for everything in existence, then he is also the cause for mankind's own choices.

truthuprootsevil said:

You ask what makes me think God must depend on what he can see down the corridors of time - other than saying it has already been done (choices made) there is nothing else that can be said, whether it is understood or unaccepted.
Not sure how "that springs out of nothing is related, to God knowing the beginning and the end."

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Look up "foreknow", "foreknowledge", "foreknown", (and, in fact, the word, "know", in the Old Testament), in the Concordances. Too, consider the attributes of God. For him to foreknow involves his purposeful knowing. One might go so far as to say that he knows BECAUSE he causes. The Biblical use of "foreknowledge" goes beyond the mere modern English "to know".

Thayers Greek Lexicon says, "forethought, prearrangement": 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23

Topical Lexicon: Definition and Key Idea
"The noun πρόγνωσις (prognōsis) denotes the prior knowledge and purposeful awareness of God that undergirds His sovereign actions in history. More than mere foresight, it is the personal, relational knowing by which God sets His redemptive plan in motion and lovingly fixes His regard upon His people before their existence in time."

Chat GPT-5 mini, concerning Cruden's Concordance:
Summary — Cruden on "Foreknowledge"

• Cruden treats "Foreknowledge" mainly as God's prior, purposeful knowledge that undergirds election and providential action. He cross‑references Foreknowledge with Knowledge, Election, Predestination, Providence, and Counsel, and highlights verses where God’s prior knowledge is tied to his determinate counsel or purposeful decrees.

Exact verse references Cruden lists under "Foreknowledge" (as cross‑referenced to related headings)

• Genesis 18:19
• Exodus 33:17
• Job 10:8–9
• Psalm 147:5
• Isaiah 46:10
• Jeremiah 1:5
• Amos 3:2
• Acts 2:23
• Acts 4:28
• Acts 17:26–27
• Romans 8:29
• Romans 11:2
• 1 Corinthians 8:3–4 (contextual cross refs)
• 1 Peter 1:2
• 2 Peter 3:9 (contextual)
• Revelation 13:8 (the Lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" often cross‑referenced with foreknowledge/election)

truthuprootsevil said:

The Bible indicates God knew us before we were born. The Bible tells us that our names are already written in the Lamb's Book of Life no matter what point in time we're born and can be blotted out / erased.
BIBLE VERSES ABOUT LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE BIBLE VERSES ABOUT LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE

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truthuprootsevil said:

What Does the Bible Say About God Knew Us Before We Were Born? What Does the Bible Say About God Knew Us Before We Were Born?

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How does "What....God Knew About Us Before We Were Born" support your view more than mine? Romans 8: "29...whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..." Romans 9: "11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls..."

John 6:44 "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me."

Sory Mark Qualyle, I got the wrong poster, it was truthuprootsevil, not you that wrote, 'God is the cause, the reason for everything'.