New not renewed Covenant

HIM · May 26, 2026

DamianWarS said:
..I will establish a new covenant..." v9 "...not like the covenant that I made with their fathers..." So there is a covenant established, then a new covenant will be established, unlike the former. It seems pretty spelt out here,

HIM said:
Yep that was shared also.

DamianWarS said:
this is disengaging from the point. The language used is new covenant vs not like the former and in Hebrews it continues this new/old contrast

Disengaging? No, what I said was it was shared already. Here is the post

HIM said:
As was said before God says Law. This includes the commandments but is not inclusive to just.

They broke the covenant. This the second covenant according to verse 6. It can’t be the second if it is renewed. As was said and is written, The first was defaulted by the Israelites therefore the second is needed. Notice the first is also vanishing away in verse 13 not vanished

Why is that?

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

DamianWarS · May 26, 2026

HIM said:
Yes

No your translation calls it obsolete.

The actual text says being old, growing old is near disappearing.

You are saying more than what is stated.

Saying the destruction of the Temple has something to do with this ignores the fact that the Covenant changed upon the resurrection and Jesus' assent.

I'll quote the NASB since it's a bit more literal (these are not "my translations") but I'll highlight the word in protest since NASB also uses obsolete

Heb 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first [obsolete/old]. But whatever is becoming [obsolete/old] and growing old is about to disappear.

the verb root is παλαιόω = to make old, declare obsolete, age, wear out. the text uses 2 different forms however.

the latter is "becoming-old" which seems to be the definition you are drawn to

the former is πεπαλαίωκεν or "He-has-made-old" [the first].

-παλαίω- is the stem, which means something old or ancient (and you agree with)

the prefix however πε- is the perfect tense showing a completed action. so πε-παλαίω- carries a meaning of a completed old.

-κ- is another perfect tense marker

-εν is the third person maker

so together carries a meaning of he has made old, he has rendered obsolete, he has worn out. The interesting part is it does not age by itself, but it is a completed action of making old performed on it by Christ. Christ has made old the covenant. Obsolete is a bit specific more abstract word, and a very English way of putting it, but once you break down the word, it's what the meaning is in practice.

I speak a different language (Melayu), and it translates it saying in the sense of "already make old/outdated. Some translations use the word for old some use the word of outdated. Both carry the sense this is a completed action already performed on the object.

I'm happy to leave it more literal "he has made old" but I fail to see how that changes the meaning since it's not old because of years gone by, but it is old because Christ made it old, in this sense it is ordained old, with the new being presented along side of it also ordained new. Obsolete/replacement are images that naturally come to mind but I get if you perhaps have an allergy towards "abolish" language. To be clear, Jesus is not abolishing, he is making old, but he also makes new and shows a better way.

This reminds me of the language in Rom 7:6 "we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit" again an aggregated word and loaded "we-have-been-released" (κατηργήθημεν) and like Heb 8:13 we do not do the releasing. We were made free from law by Christ, Christ is the one doing the releasing and he is the one also that makes it old. "so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit"

Soyeong · May 26, 2026

HIM said:
Yes

No, it spoken in the present tense not future.

I don't see how you can read Deuteronomy 30:1-10 and think that it is speaking about the present tense when it repeatedly speaks about what will happen.

HIM said:
It would be more aptly put that we are of the Torah rather than following it. It is part of who we are in Christ, for it is in our hearts and minds we are of the same Spirit. It is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

The old will be until sin is no more. For it shows those of us who are outside what sin is.

Hence it stating Heb 8:13 that it is old, growing old and ready to vanish away and not has vanished.

What do you see as the difference between being of the Torah and being followers of it? The New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10) regardless of whether or not the Mosaic Covenant has vanished since then.

HIM said:
Yes

We follow the Torah through the Spirit through Christ.
We are dead but alive. Yet not us, but Christ lives in us and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the Faith OF the Son of God who gave Himself for us.

Everything that God has commanded in the Torah teaches us how to walk in the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so that is also the way that we get to live when he is living in us, which is living by faith both of and in the Son.

HIM · May 27, 2026

Soyeong said:
I don't see how you can read Deuteronomy 30:1-10 and think that it is speaking about the present tense when it repeatedly speaks about what will happen.

Not sure why you stoped at 10, Verse 14 is in the present tense.

HIM · May 30, 2026

Soyeong said:
Everything that God has commanded in the Torah teaches us how to walk in the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so that is also the way that we get to live when he is living in us, which is living by faith both of and in the Son.

We walk through the Spirit by the Spirit not by the Torah. It is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

HIM · May 30, 2026

Soyeong said:
What do you see as the difference between being of the Torah and being followers of it? The New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10) regardless of whether or not the Mosaic Covenant has vanished since then

We are a new creature. Old things have passed away, behold all is new and of God. Know you not that we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ and have risen with Him in His resurrection that the old man be destroyed that hence forth we do not serve sin. For He that is dead is freed from sin. So let's walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh, that the righteousness of the Law (Torah) be fulfilled in us.

HIM · May 30, 2026

DamianWarS said:
I'll quote the NASB since it's a bit more literal (these are not "my translations") but I'll highlight the word in protest since NASB also uses obsolete

Heb 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first [obsolete/old]. But whatever is becoming [obsolete/old] and growing old is about to disappear.

the verb root is παλαιόω = to make old, declare obsolete, age, wear out. the text uses 2 different forms however.

the latter is "becoming-old" which seems to be the definition you are drawn to

the former is πεπαλαίωκεν or "He-has-made-old" [the first].

-παλαίω- is the stem, which means something old or ancient (and you agree with)

the prefix however πε- is the perfect tense showing a completed action. so πε-παλαίω- carries a meaning of a completed old.

-κ- is another perfect tense marker

-εν is the third person maker

so together carries a meaning of he has made old, he has rendered obsolete, he has worn out. The interesting part is it does not age by itself, but it is a completed action of making old performed on it by Christ. Christ has made old the covenant. Obsolete is a bit specific more abstract word, and a very English way of putting it, but once you break down the word, it's what the meaning is in practice.

I speak a different language (Melayu), and it translates it saying in the sense of "already make old/outdated. Some translations use the word for old some use the word of outdated. Both carry the sense this is a completed action already performed on the object.

I'm happy to leave it more literal "he has made old" but I fail to see how that changes the meaning since it's not old because of years gone by, but it is old because Christ made it old, in this sense it is ordained old, with the new being presented along side of it also ordained new. Obsolete/replacement are images that naturally come to mind but I get if you perhaps have an allergy towards "abolish" language. To be clear, Jesus is not abolishing, he is making old, but he also makes new and shows a better way.

Yes old not obsolete as was shown to you.

Why old and not obsolete?

Because it is ready to vanish away, not vanished.

Why Because by the Law is the knowledge of sin and there is still a need in the world for the knowledge of sin because not all who profess are and there are still many who need to come to Christ.

DamianWarS said:
This reminds me of the language in Rom 7:6 "we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit" again an aggregated word and loaded "we-have-been-released" (κατηργήθημεν) and like Heb 8:13 we do not do the releasing. We were made free from law by Christ, Christ is the one doing the releasing and he is the one also that makes it old. "so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit"

If we walk in the Spirit we are not sinning.

So what need is there of the law. The Law is for transgressors.

HIM · May 30, 2026

DamianWarS said:
Heb 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first [obsolete/old]. But whatever is becoming [obsolete/old] and growing old is about to disappear.

the verb root is παλαιόω = to make old, declare obsolete, age, wear out. the text uses 2 different forms however.

the latter is "becoming-old" which seems to be the definition you are drawn to

the former is πεπαλαίωκεν or "He-has-made-old" [the first].

-παλαίω- is the stem, which means something old or ancient (and you agree with)

the prefix however πε- is the perfect tense showing a completed action. so πε-παλαίω- carries a meaning of a completed old.

-κ- is another perfect tense marker

-εν is the third person maker

Nice work by the way. Are you fluent?

DamianWarS · Jun 1, 2026

HIM said:
Yes old not obsolete as was shown to you.

old is not enough and lacks transparency of the text, if you disagree with "obsolete" that's fine, but you need to take more time to unpack the context more and it can't be left at "old". We also need to appreciate that "obsolete" may still be a reasonable translation for "πεπαλαίωκεν" and no perfect word exists (old is certainly not it either) as each translated word carries a drifting nuance. Call it what you want, but it is a completed action of "making old" by Christ. I think obsolete captures this, at least for the first 2 instances of the word in the text, where the latter is "become-old". You've collapsed the meaning to the latter use and have ignored former 2 instances.

HIM said:
Are you fluent?

I am well studied

fhansen · Jun 4, 2026

HIM said:
(Staff edit)Let's take a look at Chadash, chadesh.

Without me watching an hour and a half video to find your evidence. I assume the leg you stand on is the Masoretic text use of the vowel marks is incorrect because the Scrolls found Quran caves do not support it. Am I right?

That my friend poses a serious issue.

If my search engine is correct, the Holy Writ in respect to "Chadesh" has 63 Occurrences if we do away with the vowel marks. That leaves us in the dark; subject to our own interpretation, or us thinking we are led by God's Spirit or prayerfully us being led by God's Holy Spirit. And or us relying on the LXX as the given interpretation, through our own interpretation of it or through God's Spirit. Which is still subject to ours's at times, as is the Masoretic due to not hearing God's voice at times or not at all as we might be caught up in ourselves.

Out of the 63 only 20 use the suffix ה in the spelling חֲדָשָׁה֙. As you might know the suffix denotes permanence, state of being. In other words makes the word a noun not a verb. Here they are.

Lev 23:16 עַ֣ד ʿa֣ḏ Even unto מִֽ mīֽמָּחֳרַ֤ת moḥŏra֤ṯ the morrow הַ haשַּׁבָּת֙ śּaboṯ֙ sabbath הַ haשְּׁבִיעִ֔ת śּəḇîʿī֔ṯ after the seventh תִּסְפְּר֖וּ tīsəpər֖ûi shall ye number חֲמִשִּׁ֣ים ḥămīśּī֣ym fifty י֑וֹם y֑ôm days וְ wəהִקְרַבְתֶּ֛ם hīqəraḇəte֛m and ye shall offer מִנְחָ֥ה mīnəḥo֥h meat offering חֲדָשָׁ֖ה ḥăḏośo֖h a new לַ laיהוָֽה׃ yhwoֽh. unto the LORD

A new meat offering not renewed

Num 28:26 וּ ûiבְ ḇəי֣וֹם y֣ôm Also in the day הַ haבִּכּוּרִ֗ים bīkûirī֗ym of the firstfruits בְּ bəהַקְרִ֨יבְ haqərī֨yḇəכֶ֜ם ḵe֜m when ye bring מִנְחָ֤ה mīnəḥo֤h meat offering חֲדָשָׁה֙ ḥăḏośâ֙ a new לַֽ laֽיהוָ֔ה yhwo֔h unto the LORD בְּ bəשָׁבֻעֹ֖תֵי śoḇūʿō֖ṯêכֶ֑ם ḵe֑m after your weeks מִֽקְרָא־ mīֽqəroʾ- convocation קֹ֙דֶשׁ֙ qō֙ḏeś֙ [be out] ye shall have an holy יִהְיֶ֣ה yīhəye֣h shall have לָ loכֶ֔ם ḵe֔m כָּל־ kol- all manner מְלֶ֥אכֶת məle֥ʾḵeṯ work עֲבֹדָ֖ה ʿăḇōḏo֖h no servile לֹ֥א lō֥ʾ not תַעֲשֽׂוּ׃ ṯaʿăšֽûi. ye shall do

A new meat offering not renewed

Deut 24:5 כִּֽי־ kīֽy- When יִקַּ֥ח yīqa֥ḥ hath taken אִישׁ֙ ʾîś֙ When a man אִשָּׁ֣ה ʾīśּo֣h wife חֲדָשָׁ֔ה ḥăḏośo֔h a new לֹ֤א lō֤ʾ nor יֵצֵא֙ yēṣēʾ֙ he shall not go out בַּ baצָּבָ֔א ṣoḇo֔ʾ to war וְ wəלֹא־ lōʾ- nor יַעֲבֹ֥ר yaʿăḇō֥r neither shall he be charged עָלָ֖י ʿolo֖yו w with לְ ləכָל־ ḵol- any דָּבָ֑ר doḇo֑r with any business נָקִ֞י noqī֞y [but] he shall be free יִהְיֶ֤ה yīhəye֤h become לְ ləבֵית ḇêṯוֹ֙ ô֙ at home שָׁנָ֣ה śono֣h year אֶחָ֔ת ʾeḥo֔ṯ one וְ wəשִׂמַּ֖ח šīma֖ḥ and shall cheer up אֶת־ ʾeṯ- אִשְׁתּ֥ ʾīśət֥וֹ ô his wife אֲשֶׁר־ ʾăśer- whom לָקָֽח׃ loqoֽḥ. which he hath taken ס s

A new wife not renewed

Josh 15:37 צְנָ֥ן ṣəno֥n Zenan וַ waחֲדָשָׁ֖ה ḥăḏośo֖h and Hadashah וּ ûiמִגְדַּל־ mīḡədal- גָּֽד׃ goֽḏ. and Migdalgad

Name of a city

1Sam 6:7 וְ wəעַתָּ֗ה ʿato֗h Now קְח֨וּ qəḥ֨ûi and take וַ waעֲשׂ֜וּ ʿăš֜ûi Now therefore make עֲגָלָ֤ה ʿăḡolo֤h cart חֲדָשָׁה֙ ḥăḏośâ֙ new אֶחָ֔ת ʾeḥo֔ṯ a וּ ûiשְׁתֵּ֤י śətē֤y two פָרוֹת֙ p̄orôṯ֙ kine עָל֔וֹת ʿol֔ôṯ milch אֲשֶׁ֛ר ʾăśe֛r which לֹא־ lōʾ- has never עָלָ֥ה ʿolo֥h on which there hath come עֲלֵי ʿălêהֶ֖ם he֖m and עֹ֑ל ʿō֑l no yoke וַ waאֲסַרְתֶּ֤ם ʾăsarəte֤m and tie אֶת־ ʾeṯ- הַ haפָּרוֹת֙ porôṯ֙ the kine בָּ boעֲגָלָ֔ה ʿăḡolo֔h to the cart וַ waהֲשֵׁיבֹתֶ֧ם hăśêḇōṯe֧m and bring בְּנֵי bənêהֶ֛ם he֛m their calves מֵ mēאַחֲרֵי ʾaḥărêהֶ֖ם he֖m from them הַ haבָּֽיְתָ boֽyəṯoה׃ h. home

New cart not renewed

2Sam 6:3 וַ waיַּרְכִּ֜בוּ yarəkī֜ḇûi And they set אֶת־ ʾeṯ- אֲר֤וֹן ʾăr֤ôn the ark הָֽ hoֽאֱלֹהִים֙ ʾĕlōhîm֙ of God אֶל־ ʾel- about עֲגָלָ֣ה ʿăḡolo֣h cart חֲדָשָׁ֔ה ḥăḏośo֔h upon a new וַ waיִּשָּׂאֻ֔ yīšּoʾū֔הוּ hûi and brought מִ mīבֵּ֥ית bē֥yṯ it out of the house אֲבִינָדָ֖ב ʾăḇînoḏo֖ḇ of Abinadab אֲשֶׁ֣ר ʾăśe֣r which בַּ baגִּבְעָ֑ה gīḇəʿo֑h the hill וְ wəעֻזָּ֣א ʿūzo֣ʾ and Uzzah וְ wəאַחְי֗וֹ ʾaḥəy֗ô and Ahio בְּנֵי֙ bənê֙ the sons אֲבִ֣ינָדָ֔ב ʾăḇī֣ynoḏo֔ḇ of Abinadab נֹהֲגִ֖ים nōhăḡī֖ym drave אֶת־ ʾeṯ- הָ hoעֲגָלָ֥ה ʿăḡolo֥h cart חֲדָשָֽׁה׃ ḥăḏośoֽh. the new

New cart not renewed.

2Sam 21:16 [וְיִשְׁבֹּו wəyīśəbōw כ ḵ ] (וְיִשְׁבִּ֨י wəyīśəbī֨y ק q ) בְּנֹ֜ב bənō֜ḇ And Ishbibenob אֲשֶׁ֣ר ʾăśe֣r ׀ ׀ who בִּ bīילִידֵ֣י ylîḏē֣y which [was] of the sons הָ hoרָפָ֗ה rop̄o֗h of the giant וּ ûiמִשְׁקַ֤ל mīśəqa֤l the weight קֵינ qênוֹ֙ ô֙ of whose spear שְׁלֹ֤שׁ śəlō֤ś [weighed] three מֵאוֹת֙ mēʾôṯ֙ hundred מִשְׁקַ֣ל mīśəqa֣l in weight נְחֹ֔שֶׁת nəḥō֔śeṯ [shekels] of brass וְ wəה֖וּא h֖ûiʾ he חָג֣וּר ḥoḡ֣ûir he being girded חֲדָשָׁ֑ה ḥăḏośo֑h with a new וַ waיֹּ֖אמֶר yō֖ʾmer [sword] thought לְ ləהַכּ֥וֹת hak֥ôṯ to have slain אֶת־ ʾeṯ- דָּוִֽד׃ dowīֽḏ. David

Girded with a new not renewed

1Kgs 11:29 וַֽ waֽיְהִי֙ yəhî֙ came בָּ boעֵ֣ת ʿē֣ṯ And it came to pass at that time הַ haהִ֔יא hī֔yʾ he וְ wəיָֽרָבְעָ֖ם yoֽroḇəʿo֖m when Jeroboam יָצָ֣א yoṣo֣ʾ went out מִ mīירוּשָׁלִָ֑ם yrûiśolīo֑m of Jerusalem וַ waיִּמְצָ֣א yīməṣo֣ʾ found אֹת֡ ʾōṯ֡וֹ ô אֲחִיָּה֩ ʾăḥîּâ֩ Ahijah הַ haשִּׁילֹנִ֨י śּîlōnī֨y the Shilonite הַ haנָּבִ֜יא noḇī֜yʾ that the prophet בַּ baדֶּ֗רֶךְ de֗reḵə him in the way וְ wəה֤וּא h֤ûiʾ now Ahijah מִתְכַּסֶּה֙ mīṯəkaseh֙ and he had clad בְּ bəשַׂלְמָ֣ה šaləmo֣h garment חֲדָשָׁ֔ה ḥăḏośo֔h himself with a new וּ ûiשְׁנֵי śənêהֶ֥ם he֥m and they two לְ ləבַדָּ֖ ḇado֖ם m were alone בַּ baשָּׂדֶֽה׃ šּoḏeֽh. [were] alone in the field

A new garment not renewed

1Kgs 11:30 וַ waיִּתְפֹּ֣שׂ yīṯəpō֣š caught אֲחִיָּ֔ה ʾăḥîּo֔h And Ahijah בַּ baשַּׂלְמָ֥ה šּaləmo֥h garment הַ haחֲדָשָׁ֖ה ḥăḏośo֖h the new אֲשֶׁ֣ר ʾăśe֣r which עָלָ֑י ʿolo֑yו w was on וַ waיִּ֨קְרָעֶ֔ yī֨qəroʿe֔הָ ho that [was] on him and rent שְׁנֵ֥ים śənē֥ym both עָשָׂ֖ר ʿošo֖r ten קְרָעִֽים׃ qəroʿīֽym. pieces

New garment rent in 12 pieces not renewed

2Kgs 2:20 וַ waיֹּ֗אמֶר yō֗ʾmer And he said קְחוּ־ qəḥûi- Bring לִ līי֙ y֙ צְלֹחִ֣ית ṣəlōḥī֣yṯ cruse חֲדָשָׁ֔ה ḥăḏośo֔h me a new וְ wəשִׂ֥ימוּ šī֥ymûi and put שָׁ֖ם śo֖m in it מֶ֑לַח me֑laḥ salt וַ waיִּקְח֖וּ yīqəḥ֖ûi therein And they brought אֵלָֽי ʾēloֽyו׃ w. about

A new cruse not renewed

1Chr 13:7 וַ waיַּרְכִּ֜יבוּ yarəkī֜yḇûi And they carried אֶת־ ʾeṯ- אֲר֤וֹן ʾăr֤ôn the ark הָ hoאֱלֹהִים֙ ʾĕlōhîm֙ of God עַל־ ʿal- and עֲגָלָ֣ה ʿăḡolo֣h cart חֲדָשָׁ֔ה ḥăḏośo֔h in a new מִ mīבֵּ֖ית bē֖yṯ out of the house אֲבִינָדָ֑ב ʾăḇînoḏo֑ḇ of Abinadab וְ wəעֻזָּ֣א ʿūzo֣ʾ and Uzza וְ wəאַחְי֔וֹ ʾaḥəy֔ô and Ahio נֹהֲגִ֖ים nōhăḡī֖ym drave בָּ boעֲגָלָֽה׃ ʿăḡoloֽh. the cart

A new cart not renewed

2Chr 20:5 וַ waיַּעֲמֹ֣ד yaʿămō֣ḏ stood יְהוֹשָׁפָ֗ט yəhôśop̄o֗ṭ And Jehoshaphat בִּ bīקְהַ֧ל qəha֧l in the congregation יְהוּדָ֛ה yəhûiḏo֛h of Judah וִ wīירוּשָׁלִַ֖ם yrûiśolīa֖m and Jerusalem בְּ bəבֵ֣ית ḇē֣yṯ in the house יְהוָ֑ה yəhwo֑h of the LORD לִ līפְנֵ֖י p̄ənē֖y before הֶ heחָצֵ֥ר ḥoṣē֥r court הַ haחֲדָשָֽׁה׃ ḥăḏośoֽh. the new

This one could go either way. New court or renewed. But I tend to think it is new because when Asa heard and heeded the Prophet Oded he addressed the altar. In the KJV it says renewed the Alter in 2 Chron 15:8. But since it was desecrated I think the old was destroyed and another was built. At this time the court would have rebuilt also being desecrated. Couple that with the fact that all the evidence thus far shows us when the word is used with the spelling being the way it is in Jer 31:31-33 it is in relation with something being New not renewed.

Isa 43:19 הִנְ hīnəנִ֨י nī֨y behold עֹשֶׂ֤ה ʿōše֤h Behold I will do חֲדָשָׁה֙ ḥăḏośâ֙ a new thing עַתָּ֣ה ʿato֣h Now תִצְמָ֔ח ṯīṣəmo֔ḥ now it shall spring forth הֲ hăל֖וֹא l֖ôʾ not תֵֽדָע֑וּ ṯēֽḏoʿ֑ûiהָ ho shall ye not know אַ֣ף ʾa֣p̄ will even אָשִׂ֤ים ʾošī֤ym it? I will even make בַּ baמִּדְבָּר֙ mīḏəbor֙ in the wilderness דֶּ֔רֶךְ de֔reḵə a way בִּֽ bīֽישִׁמ֖וֹן yśīm֖ôn in the desert נְהָרֽוֹת׃ nəhorֽôṯ. [and] rivers

A new thing not renewed according to context.

Isa 65:17 כִּֽי־ kīֽy- for הִנְ hīnəנִ֥י nī֥y behold בוֹרֵ֛א ḇôrē֛ʾ For behold I create שָׁמַ֥יִם śoma֥yīm heavens חֲדָשִׁ֖ים ḥăḏośī֖ym new וָ woאָ֣רֶץ ʾo֣reṣ earth חֲדָשָׁ֑ה ḥăḏośo֑h and a new וְ wəלֹ֤א lō֤ʾ not תִזָּכַ֙רְנָה֙ ṯīzoḵa֙rənâ֙ shall not be remembered הָ hoרִ֣אשֹׁנ֔וֹת rī֣ʾśōn֔ôṯ and the former וְ wəלֹ֥א lō֥ʾ or תַעֲלֶ֖ינָה ṯaʿăle֖ynâ nor come עַל־ ʿal- unto לֵֽב׃ lēֽḇ. into mind

Here we have a contrast which is nice. We have in respect the new heavens חֲדָשִׁ֖ים. As you can see this time the word in question has the suffix ם. As you might know this modifies the word to it's masculine plural form. (I will look more in depth at it's uses later) And we have חֲדָשָׁ֑ה in respect to the earth being new or renewed. Peter prophesying in regard to the day of the Lord in 2Pet 3:10 says the earth shall λύω in the Greek. Translated melt in the KJV but is defined, loosened in the sense of being destroyed in the BDAG Lexicon. The citation is below for your convenience. With this in mind we see that the earth being melted (loosened) by fervent heat is not the same as it being decimated, raised like a city that can be rebuilt from the ruins, renewed. If it is dissolved it has no form and must be made NEW.

2 Pet 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

BDAG: to reduce someth. by violence into its components, destroy (Iren. 1, 8, 1 [Harv. I 67, 9]), of a building tear down (Il. 16, 10; X., An. 2, 4, 17f; Herodian 7, 1, 7; 1 Esdr 1:52; Jos., Bell. 6, 32; SibOr 3, 409) τ. ναὸν τοῦτον J 2:19. τὸ μεσότοιχον Eph 2:14 (in imagery).—ἡ πρύμνα ἐλύετο the stern began to break up Ac 27:41 (PLond III 1164h, 19 p. 164 [III A.D.] uses λ. of the dismantling of a ship). Of the parts of the universe, as it is broken up and destroyed in the final conflagration 2 Pt 3:10–12

Isa 66:22 כִּ֣י kī֣y for כַ ḵaאֲשֶׁ֣ר ʾăśe֣r Which הַ haשָּׁמַ֣יִם śּoma֣yīm heavens הַ֠ ha֠חֳדָשִׁים ḥŏḏośîm For as the new וְ wəהָ hoאָ֨רֶץ ʾo֨reṣ earth הַ ha חֲדָשָׁ֜ה ḥăḏośo֜h and the new אֲשֶׁ֨ר ʾăśe֨r Which אֲנִ֥י ʾănī֥y I עֹשֶׂ֛ה ʿōše֛h which I will make עֹמְדִ֥ים ʿōməḏī֥ym shall remain לְ ləפָנַ֖ p̄ona֖י y before נְאֻם־ nəʾūm- me saith יְהוָ֑ה yəhwo֑h the LORD כֵּ֛ן kē֛n So יַעֲמֹ֥ד yaʿămō֥ḏ remain זַרְעֲ zarəʿăכֶ֖ם ḵe֖m so shall your seed וְ wəשִׁמְ śīməכֶֽם׃ ḵeֽm. and your name

New not renew for He will make not remake. For the FIRST Earth and Heaven shall melt, disolve with fervent and shall be no more.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Jer 31:22 עַד־ ʿaḏ- against מָתַי֙ moṯai֙ How תִּתְחַמָּקִ֔י tīṯəḥamoqī֔yן n How long wilt thou go about הַ haבַּ֖ת ba֖ṯ first הַ haשּֽׁוֹבֵבָ֑ה śּֽôḇēḇo֑h O thou backsliding כִּֽי־ kīֽy- for בָרָ֨א ḇoro֨ʾ hath created יְהוָ֤ה yəhwo֤h the Lord חֲדָשָׁה֙ ḥăḏośâ֙ a new thing בָּ boאָ֔רֶץ ʾo֔reṣ in the earth נְקֵבָ֖ה nəqēḇo֖h A woman תְּס֥וֹבֵֽב təs֥ôḇēֽḇ shall compass גָּֽבֶר׃ goֽḇer. a man ס s

The Lord have CREATED a new thing in the earth a women shall compass a man. New not renewed for it is not like anything before. It is created, new.

Jer 31:31 הִנֵּ֛ה hīnē֛h Behold יָמִ֥ים yomī֥ym Behold the days בָּאִ֖ים boʾī֖ym come נְאֻם־ nəʾūm- saith יְהוָ֑ה yəhwo֑h the LORD וְ wəכָרַתִּ֗י ḵoratī֗y that I will make אֶת־ ʾeṯ- with בֵּ֧ית bē֧yṯ with the house יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל yīšəroʾē֛l of Israel וְ wəאֶת־ ʾeṯ- and with בֵּ֥ית bē֥yṯ and with the house יְהוּדָ֖ה yəhûiḏo֖h of Judah בְּרִ֥ית bərī֥yṯ covenant חֲדָשָֽׁה׃ ḥăḏośoֽh. a new

With verse 22's use of the word in question we find ourselves Here we are at the verse in questioned and the context of the passages should be enough for you along with the evidence thus far. What do I mean by context? The text literally says that this new covenant is not like the covenant before. Therefore It is new not renewed. Especially considering how it was just used in Jer 31:22

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Ezek 11:19 וְ wəנָתַתִּ֤י noṯatī֤y And I will give לָ loהֶם֙ hem֙ לֵ֣ב lē֣ḇ heart אֶחָ֔ד ʾeḥo֔ḏ them one וְ wəר֥וּחַ r֥ûiḥa spirit חֲדָשָׁ֖ה ḥăḏośo֖h a new אֶתֵּ֣ן ʾetē֣n and I will put בְּ bəקִרְבְּ qīrəbəכֶ֑ם ḵe֑m within וַ waהֲסִ֨רֹתִ֜י hăsī֨rōṯī֜y you and I will take לֵ֤ב lē֤ḇ heart הָ hoאֶ֙בֶן֙ ʾe֙ḇen֙ the stony מִ mīבְּשָׂרָ֔ bəšoro֔ם m out of their flesh וְ wəנָתַתִּ֥י noṯatī֥y and will give לָ loהֶ֖ם he֖m לֵ֥ב lē֥ḇ them an heart בָּשָֽׂר׃ bošoֽr. of flesh

He will give us One heart with a new Spirit, His.

Ezek 18:31 הַשְׁלִ֣יכוּ haśəlī֣yḵûi Cast away מֵ mēעֲלֵי ʿălêכֶ֗ם ḵe֗m and אֶת־ ʾeṯ- כָּל־ kol- all פִּשְׁעֵי pīśəʿêכֶם֙ ḵem֙ from you all your transgressions אֲשֶׁ֣ר ʾăśe֣r which פְּשַׁעְתֶּ֣ם pəśaʿəte֣m whereby ye have transgressed בָּ֔ bo֔ם m וַ waעֲשׂ֥וּ ʿăš֥ûi and make לָ loכֶ֛ם ḵe֛m לֵ֥ב lē֥ḇ heart חָדָ֖שׁ ḥoḏo֖ś you a new וְ wəר֣וּחַ r֣ûiḥa spirit חֲדָשָׁ֑ה ḥăḏośo֑h and a new וְ wəלָ֥ lo֥מָּה mâ why תָמֻ֖תוּ ṯomū֖ṯûi for why will ye die בֵּ֥ית bē֥yṯ O house יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃ yīšəroʾēֽl. Israel

A new Spirit not renewed for we did not have the right Spirit, His in the first place

Ezek 36:26 וְ wəנָתַתִּ֤י noṯatī֤y also will I give לָ loכֶם֙ ḵem֙ לֵ֣ב lē֣ḇ heart חָדָ֔שׁ ḥoḏo֔ś A new וְ wəר֥וּחַ r֥ûiḥa spirit חֲדָשָׁ֖ה ḥăḏośo֖h you and a new אֶתֵּ֣ן ʾetē֣n will I put בְּ bəקִרְבְּ qīrəbəכֶ֑ם ḵe֑m within וַ waהֲסִ֨רֹתִ֜י hăsī֨rōṯī֜y you and I will take away אֶת־ ʾeṯ- לֵ֤ב lē֤ḇ heart הָ hoאֶ֙בֶן֙ ʾe֙ḇen֙ the stony מִ mīבְּשַׂרְ bəšarəכֶ֔ם ḵe֔m out of your flesh וְ wəנָתַתִּ֥י noṯatī֥y and I will give לָ loכֶ֖ם ḵe֖m לֵ֥ב lē֥ḇ you an heart בָּשָֽׂר׃ bošoֽr. of flesh

Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The evidence in respect to the Hebrew word that is translated new in Jer 31;31-33 and the Greek word translated new in the LXX is overwhelmingly against what you are sharing my friend. I pray you, @SabbathBlessings and others reconsider.

The old didn't need to be renewed; it was never revoked. It was simply made obsolete by a new and better covenant that could actually accomplish in us what the old rightfully demanded-but could never accomplish.

under grace1 · Jun 6, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
Not necessarily. The Law can mean the Ten Commandments or can mean what was written in the book by Moses on the outside of the ark Deut 31:24-26 of God's covenant (Ten Commandments) or can mean both. The context will determine when using the generic term of law what it means.

For example

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Which law does you shall not covet come from? (see below)

Indeed:
Thou shalt not covet/desire anything that belongs to your neighbour
Thou shalt not lust/have sexual desire for anyone apart from your spouse
Thou shalt not dwell on any impure thought.

I often wonder, how many that believe you must obey the TC if you want to enter Heaven, fully apply that belief to their own lives

SabbathBlessings · Jun 6, 2026

under grace1 said:
Indeed:
Thou shalt not covet/desire anything that belongs to your neighbour
Thou shalt not lust/have sexual desire for anyone apart from your spouse
Thou shalt not dwell on any impure thought.

I often wonder, how many that believe you must obey the TC if you want to enter Heaven, fully apply that belief to their own lives

God will be our righteousness Judge on this and there is nothing none of us can hide from Him Ecc12:13-14 James 2:11-12 Rev11:18-19 We must all stand before Him one day soon 2Cor5:10

under grace1 · Jun 6, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
God will be our righteousness Judge on this

Indeed he will:
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matt7:2

SabbathBlessings · Jun 6, 2026

under grace1 said:
Indeed he will:
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matt7:2

Yes it applies to us all. That’s why I do not like to judge anyone, it’s not our place, God is the only one who knows all the facts. Some people confuse sharing Scripture as judging, but judging means condemning someone or a whole group of people as unsaved Based on our own outward observations which mean nothing. We can share what the Bible says about that topic, but in the end again only God knows all the facts. If we are condemning someone through our own unrighteous eyes, that measure will be used back on us at the time of Judgement day. its why its best not to do it.

under grace1 · Jun 6, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
Yes it applies to us all. That’s why I do not like to judge anyone, its not our place, God is the only one who knows all the facts.

Well if the fact is for someone, you must obey the TC if you want to enter Heaven, according to Jesus words, you will be judged according to that

under grace1 · Jun 6, 2026

Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. Luke12:1

SabbathBlessings · Jun 6, 2026

under grace1 said:
Well if the fact is for someone, you must obey the TC if you want to enter Heaven, according to Jesus words, you will be judged according to that

I think you’re confusing your own standard of judgement with God’s, not the same. It’s not as if one group of people can vain God’s name and still be saved without repenting and another can do anything they want and no worries about a change of mind and will be saved regardless of what they do, the Bible does not teach this. God shows no partiality Rom2:11 on His judgement we are all judged the same standard Ecc 12:13-14 Mat5:19-30 James 2:11-12 Rev11:18-19. Only God knows what’s really going on. Why He will be the one to separate the wheat from the tares and the ones who say LORD LORD but not do His will Mat7:21-23.

Anyway, I am OK agreeing to disagree. This will be sorted out by God in His time.

under grace1 · Jun 6, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
I think you’re confusing your own standard of judgement with God’s, not the same. It’s not as if one group of people can vain God’s name and still be saved without repenting and another one can’t. God shows no partiality Rom2:11 on His judgement we are all judged the same Ecc 12:13-14 Mat5:19-30 James 2:11-12 Rev11:18-19

Im not confusing my own standard at all, Im simply stating the plain words of Christ regarding judgement on this subject.
If someone makes a statement:
You must obey the TC if you want to enter Heaven, they themselves will be judged according to that statement

SabbathBlessings · Jun 6, 2026

under grace1 said:
Im not confusing my own standard at all, Im simply stating the plain words of Christ regarding judgement on this subject.
If someone makes a statement:
You must obey the TC if you want to enter Heaven, they themselves will be judged according to that statement

Well you could actually quote someone saying that, I guess that would be the first step.

I guess we can start with Jesus

Mat 19:17 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

I see it more as a result of God’s works Exo32:16 inside us Jer 31:33 Heb8:10 and our love to God and cooperating with His Spirit John14:15-18 which results in salvation

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city

Sadly not everyone does Rom8:7-8

under grace1 · Jun 6, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
Well you could actually quote someone saying that, I guess that would be the first step.

OK, can a person enter heaven if they do not obey the letter of the TC?

New not renewed Covenant

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