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Holiness Heresy.

The Liturgist

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If I recall correctly, most of the N.T. canon had been widely agreed upon, by near the end of the 2nd C. A.D.; although, it's the usage of the believing assemblies that established the canon, rather than any "official" definition.

That’s incorrect, the four Gospels and the Pauline epistles had been agreed upon by then, but the canon was not settled until the fourth century, and what caused it to be settled was the 39th Paschal Encyclical of St. Athanasius causing all of the churches in Egypt to adopt the same New Testament canon, and due to his role at Nicaea St. Athanasius was extremely influential, and his canon was, by the end of the fifth century*, adopted in Constantinople, Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch and in the following century by the Syriac speaking Christians in Syria, Mesopotamia and India, (which, because the Peshitta only had the 22 book alternative canon I previously mentioned, did not have access to all 27 books until the sixth century translation by Mor Philoxenus of Mabbug and Mor Thomas of Harqel, two Syriac Orthodox fathers).

Here is a good article on the contribution of St. Athanasius: 367 Athanasius Defines the New Testament | Christian History Magazine

* This is fast by standards of the time; alternate canons continued to be discussed and proposed, but once it became clear what the New Testament canon in use in Alexandria was, as the importance of St. Athanasius was realized, and with Arian persecution winding down inside the Roman Empire under Theodosius I, the last incident being in 386 in Milan, as mentioned previously, it was soon thereafter that the churches of Rome, Jerusalem and Constantinople picked up the canon; Antioch I believe was the last holdout among the five Patriarchates. Things took slightly longer for the non-Greek speaking churches, except for the Copts, who benefitted from St. Cyril the Great, who was also bishop of Alexandria, having the Bible translated (with the 27 book New Testament Canon of St. Athanasius included) to them, in the fifth century, along with the liturgy.

It should be noted by the way that Quincunque Vult, the ancient homily sometimes incorrectly called “The Athanasian Creed,” was not actually written by St. Athanasius, but rather dates from the sixth century.
 
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The Liturgist

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The question in my mind was: what happens if the Lord leads someone in the church meeting, to say something, or to sing a particular song, which is not a part of the normal service?

Here we have to clarify what is meant by church meeting, since there are meetings where this could occur, and meetings where the Lord would not move someone to do such a thing because it would disrupt a prayer or hymn that the congregation was singing or, particularly, disrupt the Eucharist.

St. Paul directed that Christian worship be done decently and in order, and thus the Lord would not do that in the context of a Holy Communion service, because that would obviously cause serious disruption. There are times and places where such things do happen, but not during the Divine Liturgy (which to be clear, refers to the Holy Communion service and only the Holy Communion service) or another sacrament, such as Baptism, or Holy Matrimony. If someone made a spontaneous utterance during the consecration of the Eucharist it would be as disruptive and as inappropriate in the context of our worship as if someone did that during the vows of a marriage or during a funeral, or the baptism of an infant.

Now, there are times and places where someone might well be moved to make a spontaneous utterance by the Lord, and such things have happened.



I like quite a few hymns that focus on doctrine myself; although, I don't think it's necessary to avoid emotion; the two can complement each other.

Regarding emotion, the concern of the early church fathers related to emotional manipulation. That being said, there is an emotional context in much Orthodox hymnody, particularly in the polyphonic hymns of the Slavonic church and the Armenian Apostolic church, but even in those churches that use Byzantine Chant there is plenty of emotion; one can tell joyful moments from sorrowful moments with great ease.


Indeed; but, spontaneity?

Yes - very spontaneously, albeit respectfully. To be clear, in the Divine Liturgy, that is to say, the Eucharist, or at other sacramental services such as Holy Matrimony, or during the singing of the sets of hymns of Matins, Vespers and so on, or when grace is being sung before a meal in the Trapeza (every Orthodox Divine Liturgy and most other services except for evening services is usually followed by a meal in the church hall, and yes, we sing grace; if a prayer is not silent, it is usually sung by the choir and/or the congregation; in the Eastern liturgical rites almost everything is sung, unlike in the West, that said there are Orthodox Christians who use the Western Rite, mainly in the Antiochian church), we do not do anything that would distract other worshippers, so obviously when I have been moved to pray in the Divine Liturgy or at Matins or Vespers I have not prayed aloud.



It's not my experience, but it doesn't sound strange to me.

Good.

I've nothing against liturgy, per se (it could certainly be part of a godly service), as long as there is also room for the Lord to lead as he wishes (i.e. not a fully set service, with everything planned beforehand).

There is room for spontaneous inspired utterances within the context of church meetings. Its just that one doesn’t do it during the Divine Liturgy proper, because the congregation is focused on prayer. The Lord leads us as he wishes by virtue of the fact that we are there and are praying; obviously the use of a liturgy by a Christian congregation implies that the Lord has led us to assemble and pray in this manner.

In the early church as well a clear distinction was made between those times when the people might make extemporaneous individual prayers and those times of solemn worship in which the congregation sings together.


The presbyter may pray extemporaneously, but what about people in the congregation generally?

With regards to an individual’s prayer one can pray extemporaneously at any time. However during sacramental services one should not offer such a prayer aloud as explained above.



The Quakers have gone to the opposite extreme. As is often the case, I think that a middle path is best (some structure, but also some room for flexibility; and I would certainly never put "inner light" equal to, never mind above, Holy Scripture; in fact, it would need to be tested by Holy Scripture).

The opposite extreme to the Quakers would be the Jehovah’s Witnesses or Christian Science services where everything is controlled and dictated centrally and all churches preach the same sermon and sing the same hymns which are dictated from a central office, which I find to be chilling.

That is not what liturgical worship looks like.

My theology could probably be described as Reformed, Baptist, Charismatic (with caveats - I don't agree with some Charismatic doctrines and practices).

The Orthodox are not cessationist but our experience of what the Charisms are tends to differ greatly from the charismatic opinion about what those constitutes. For example, I’ve met Orthodox monastics who were prophetic and I’ve experienced what some believe is speaking in tongues, but it was entirely different from the charismatic experience. Additionally we believe seeking after spiritual experiences can be dangerous and that one should rather adopt a position of extreme humility regarding such things. There is somewhat of a different mindset compared to charismatics.

Some of the charismatic practices that deeply concern us are the “Toronto blessing”, “Being slain in the spirit”, violent shaking and convulsing, and so on.

Regarding healing, I myself have seen someone be miraculously healed through the sacrament of the anointing of the sick with oil, however, we would never encourage someone to not seek conventional medical care. Also the charismatics who preach the prosperity gospel are very troubling for us.
 
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Cal_

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Your idea of 'imputed holiness' lacks scriptural support. Christ's holiness is 'imparted 'to us, not imputed or positional.
When a person becomes a Christian, they are 'initially sanctified', that is, set apart or dedicated to God. This is the meaning of the word saints.1 Cor 1:2. This is not actually being made holy or Christlike, the Corinthians are an example of this with their carnal living.
Not to mention the foolish carnal Galatians who had no idea if they were made right through the works of the law or by faith in Christ. [Gal 3:2]
From the time of conversion there is a 'progressive sanctification' where the believer gradually gains victory over acts of sin and exhibits the fruit of the Spirit.
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 15
All this should lead up to the crisis of 'entire sanctification' 1Thes 5: 23. ... which deals with the source of sinning, inbred or indwelling sin.
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom 8:9-10
 
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Cal_

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I see you’ve quoted several passages there, the problem of course being that you’re not explaining your interpretation of them clearly;

If on the other hand you’re trying to argue that we can only express doctrine through Scriptural quotations as opposed to explanatory statements that are based on Scripture, this is itself unscriptural according to a verse you yourself quoted 2 Peter 1:16-21
You can explain it to your hearts content but we're still set apart in Christ;

Coming to Him the Living Stone chosen by God;

But to those who do not believe,
“The Stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,” 1 Peter 2:4-8

Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:11-12
 
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Aussie52

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Not to mention the foolish carnal Galatians who had no idea if they were made right through the works of the law or by faith in Christ. [Gal 3:2]

The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 15

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom 8:9-10
Your verses have little to no bearing to my quotes or the subject at hand Do you wish to discuss the issue or just wasting my time?
 
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The Liturgist

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You can explain it to your hearts content but we're still set apart in Christ;

Coming to Him the Living Stone chosen by God;

But to those who do not believe,
“The Stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,” 1 Peter 2:4-8

Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:11-12

Please clarify what it is you’re trying to say, since I don’t understand your post or how it relates to the topic of the thread.
 
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Cal_

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Your verses have little to no bearing to my quotes or the subject at hand Do you wish to discuss the issue or just wasting my time?
You're wasting your own time because you can't decide if you're set apart in Christ or through the works of the law.

But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
 
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Cal_

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Please clarify what it is you’re trying to say, since I don’t understand your post or how it relates to the topic of the thread.
Again, Christ also loved and gave Himself to sanctify the church ...Eph 5:25
For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. John 17:19

And if my memory doesn't fail, the topic of the thread relates to heretics sanctifying themselves, holier than thou heresy.
 
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David1701

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That’s incorrect, the four Gospels and the Pauline epistles had been agreed upon by then, but the canon was not settled until the fourth century, and what caused it to be settled was the 39th Paschal Encyclical of St. Athanasius causing all of the churches in Egypt to adopt the same New Testament canon, and due to his role at Nicaea St. Athanasius was extremely influential, and his canon was, by the end of the fifth century*, adopted in Constantinople, Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch and in the following century by the Syriac speaking Christians in Syria, Mesopotamia and India, (which, because the Peshitta only had the 22 book alternative canon I previously mentioned, did not have access to all 27 books until the sixth century translation by Mor Philoxenus of Mabbug and Mor Thomas of Harqel, two Syriac Orthodox fathers).

Here is a good article on the contribution of St. Athanasius: 367 Athanasius Defines the New Testament | Christian History Magazine

* This is fast by standards of the time; alternate canons continued to be discussed and proposed, but once it became clear what the New Testament canon in use in Alexandria was, as the importance of St. Athanasius was realized, and with Arian persecution winding down inside the Roman Empire under Theodosius I, the last incident being in 386 in Milan, as mentioned previously, it was soon thereafter that the churches of Rome, Jerusalem and Constantinople picked up the canon; Antioch I believe was the last holdout among the five Patriarchates. Things took slightly longer for the non-Greek speaking churches, except for the Copts, who benefitted from St. Cyril the Great, who was also bishop of Alexandria, having the Bible translated (with the 27 book New Testament Canon of St. Athanasius included) to them, in the fifth century, along with the liturgy.

It should be noted by the way that Quincunque Vult, the ancient homily sometimes incorrectly called “The Athanasian Creed,” was not actually written by St. Athanasius, but rather dates from the sixth century.
There was the Muratorian Canon, in about 180 A.D., which contained a list of most of the N.T. books, although there were several missing.

What I meant was that establishment of which N.T. books were genuine, God-breathed Scripture, and which were not, was by the general usage of the believing body of Christ. I know that there were official declarations of canonicity; but, they would reflect what was already common usage.
 
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David1701

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Here we have to clarify what is meant by church meeting, since there are meetings where this could occur, and meetings where the Lord would not move someone to do such a thing because it would disrupt a prayer or hymn that the congregation was singing or, particularly, disrupt the Eucharist.

St. Paul directed that Christian worship be done decently and in order, and thus the Lord would not do that in the context of a Holy Communion service, because that would obviously cause serious disruption. There are times and places where such things do happen, but not during the Divine Liturgy (which to be clear, refers to the Holy Communion service and only the Holy Communion service) or another sacrament, such as Baptism, or Holy Matrimony. If someone made a spontaneous utterance during the consecration of the Eucharist it would be as disruptive and as inappropriate in the context of our worship as if someone did that during the vows of a marriage or during a funeral, or the baptism of an infant.

Now, there are times and places where someone might well be moved to make a spontaneous utterance by the Lord, and such things have happened.





Regarding emotion, the concern of the early church fathers related to emotional manipulation. That being said, there is an emotional context in much Orthodox hymnody, particularly in the polyphonic hymns of the Slavonic church and the Armenian Apostolic church, but even in those churches that use Byzantine Chant there is plenty of emotion; one can tell joyful moments from sorrowful moments with great ease.




Yes - very spontaneously, albeit respectfully. To be clear, in the Divine Liturgy, that is to say, the Eucharist, or at other sacramental services such as Holy Matrimony, or during the singing of the sets of hymns of Matins, Vespers and so on, or when grace is being sung before a meal in the Trapeza (every Orthodox Divine Liturgy and most other services except for evening services is usually followed by a meal in the church hall, and yes, we sing grace; if a prayer is not silent, it is usually sung by the choir and/or the congregation; in the Eastern liturgical rites almost everything is sung, unlike in the West, that said there are Orthodox Christians who use the Western Rite, mainly in the Antiochian church), we do not do anything that would distract other worshippers, so obviously when I have been moved to pray in the Divine Liturgy or at Matins or Vespers I have not prayed aloud.





Good.



There is room for spontaneous inspired utterances within the context of church meetings. Its just that one doesn’t do it during the Divine Liturgy proper, because the congregation is focused on prayer. The Lord leads us as he wishes by virtue of the fact that we are there and are praying; obviously the use of a liturgy by a Christian congregation implies that the Lord has led us to assemble and pray in this manner.

In the early church as well a clear distinction was made between those times when the people might make extemporaneous individual prayers and those times of solemn worship in which the congregation sings together.




With regards to an individual’s prayer one can pray extemporaneously at any time. However during sacramental services one should not offer such a prayer aloud as explained above.





The opposite extreme to the Quakers would be the Jehovah’s Witnesses or Christian Science services where everything is controlled and dictated centrally and all churches preach the same sermon and sing the same hymns which are dictated from a central office, which I find to be chilling.

That is not what liturgical worship looks like.



The Orthodox are not cessationist but our experience of what the Charisms are tends to differ greatly from the charismatic opinion about what those constitutes. For example, I’ve met Orthodox monastics who were prophetic and I’ve experienced what some believe is speaking in tongues, but it was entirely different from the charismatic experience. Additionally we believe seeking after spiritual experiences can be dangerous and that one should rather adopt a position of extreme humility regarding such things. There is somewhat of a different mindset compared to charismatics.

Some of the charismatic practices that deeply concern us are the “Toronto blessing”, “Being slain in the spirit”, violent shaking and convulsing, and so on.

Regarding healing, I myself have seen someone be miraculously healed through the sacrament of the anointing of the sick with oil, however, we would never encourage someone to not seek conventional medical care. Also the charismatics who preach the prosperity gospel are very troubling for us.
The more I read your posts, the more I realise how different "Orthodox" services are from my experience. That's not a criticism, just an observation; but, it's like a different world. I'm finding this quite interesting actually.

Things like the "Toronto blessing", being "slain in the Spirit", violent shaking, animal noises, the so-called "prosperity gospel", and a few other practices/doctrines, I avoid like the plague (they are some of the caveats I had in mind).

I didn't know that the "Orthodox" were not cessationist, but I'm pleased to hear it.
 
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Cal_

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The more I read your posts, the more I realise how different "Orthodox" services are from my experience. ...

I didn't know that the "Orthodox" were not cessationist, but I'm pleased to hear it.
The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12. gotquestions.org
The gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them exalting and magnifying and praising God. Acts 10
Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy... Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3). gotquestions.org
So that in everything you were [exceedingly] enriched in Him, in all speech [empowered by the spiritual gifts] and in all knowledge [with insight into the faith]. Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift. 1 Cor 1:5-9

Do not despise prophecy. 1 Thessalonians 5:20

So that each of you know how conduct your own vessel in sanctification and honor, not like [unbelieving] Gentiles who do not know God...
For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who
has also given us His Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:4-8
 
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David1701

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The gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them exalting and magnifying and praising God. Acts 10

So that in everything you were [exceedingly] enriched in Him, in all speech [empowered by the spiritual gifts] and in all knowledge [with insight into the faith]. Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift. 1 Cor 1:5-9

Do not despise prophecy. 1 Thessalonians 5:20

So that each of you know how conduct your own vessel in sanctification and honor, not like [unbelieving] Gentiles who do not know God...
For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who
has also given us His Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:4-8
Do you have a point?
 
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The more I read your posts, the more I realise how different "Orthodox" services are from my experience. That's not a criticism, just an observation; but, it's like a different world. I'm finding this quite interesting actually.

It really is another world. That said, we do not condemn the West nor demand Western Christians to Easternize and in the US, Canada and other English speaking lands most services are in English or a mix of English and whatever languages were used by the majority of that parish in “the Old Country,” in parishes that have lots of immigrants, but increasingly converts are everywhere. Due to a high birth rate and high conversion rate some churches are seeing 18% annual growth rates.

On the point of us not saying Western Christianity is wrong example many hymns from Western Christianity are entirely absent from the actual liturgy, however, and this is an important however, popular hymns for Christmas such as Silent Night are sung at other church events, there usually being a Christmas concert. Western Rite Orthodoxy is more familiar to Western Christians because it uses the Anglican and Roman holy communion services (the latter is what is used by most Lutherans, by the way) with slight adjustments, such using the original 381 version of the Creed.

Most converts however are joining Byzantine Rite parishes; the Western Rite has not seen much growth although I hope it does as I regard it as important. There is a lot people really love in the beauty of the Eastern liturgical forms. The Oriental Orthodox, who I also love, are also seeing converts, but not as many in the US, rather their growth has mainly been in Latin America and the Carribean and Africa outside of the historic Orthodox lands of Egypt (Coptic is an archaic word meaning Egyptian) and Ethiopia and Eritrea (ancient Abyssinia and Kush).

Things like the "Toronto blessing", being "slain in the Spirit", violent shaking, animal noises, the so-called "prosperity gospel", and a few other practices/doctrines, I avoid like the plague (they are some of the caveats I had in mind).

Very good, it seems are are of one accord on that also. I also love the Appalachian people, and the Orthodox Church has been growing there, but among the other churches in Appalachia, the Snake Handling Pentecostals I disagree with, because as I see it they’re endangering themselves based on an overly broad interpretation of one part of the longer ending of Mark (which unlike some I do regard as canonical; we read it and the other ten Resurrection Gospels in rotation during Orthros, also sometimes called Matins, for it is similar to the early morning prayers and hymns in the Western liturgical rite (the three ancient “offices” of prayer in the early church are called in Latin Vespers, which is prayer at dusk, Compline, or prayer at night before bed, and Matins, which is prayer before dawn (Lauds being dawn prayer, which became a thing in both churches in times and places where less persecution was occurring and it was possible to pray openly during the day; the Eastern Orthodox service of Orthros combines Matins and Lauds, however, it is frequently sung together with Vespers and Compline in a lovely Saturday evening service called “All Night VIgils” which is in parishes abbreviated so as to take around two hours to two and a half hours; in some monasteries however, and among the Russian Old Rite Orthodox, the service can be up to five hours, and the Ethiopian Orthodox and Eritrean Orthodox, who are Oriental Orthodox, will have vigils that last 12 hours; indeed Ethiopian Christians will sometimes spend nearly 24 hours worshipping with breaks for a community meal; Ethiopian Orthodox Christians are in my experience extremely devout and loving and despite spending so much time praying they are extremely humble rather than being holier-than-thou about it.

I didn't know that the "Orthodox" were not cessationist, but I'm pleased to hear it.

Indeed, we would not be able to explain what happens in the monastery if we were.

Since we’re venturing offtopic for the thread, perhaps you might send me a PM? Or I could post a thread in a more appropriate forum for us to continue this exploration.
 
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David1701

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It really is another world. That said, we do not condemn the West nor demand Western Christians to Easternize and in the US, Canada and other English speaking lands most services are in English or a mix of English and whatever languages were used by the majority of that parish in “the Old Country,” in parishes that have lots of immigrants, but increasingly converts are everywhere. Due to a high birth rate and high conversion rate some churches are seeing 18% annual growth rates.

On the point of us not saying Western Christianity is wrong example many hymns from Western Christianity are entirely absent from the actual liturgy, however, and this is an important however, popular hymns for Christmas such as Silent Night are sung at other church events, there usually being a Christmas concert. Western Rite Orthodoxy is more familiar to Western Christians because it uses the Anglican and Roman holy communion services (the latter is what is used by most Lutherans, by the way) with slight adjustments, such using the original 381 version of the Creed.

Most converts however are joining Byzantine Rite parishes; the Western Rite has not seen much growth although I hope it does as I regard it as important. There is a lot people really love in the beauty of the Eastern liturgical forms. The Oriental Orthodox, who I also love, are also seeing converts, but not as many in the US, rather their growth has mainly been in Latin America and the Carribean and Africa outside of the historic Orthodox lands of Egypt (Coptic is an archaic word meaning Egyptian) and Ethiopia and Eritrea (ancient Abyssinia and Kush).



Very good, it seems are are of one accord on that also. I also love the Appalachian people, and the Orthodox Church has been growing there, but among the other churches in Appalachia, the Snake Handling Pentecostals I disagree with, because as I see it they’re endangering themselves based on an overly broad interpretation of one part of the longer ending of Mark (which unlike some I do regard as canonical; we read it and the other ten Resurrection Gospels in rotation during Orthros, also sometimes called Matins, for it is similar to the early morning prayers and hymns in the Western liturgical rite (the three ancient “offices” of prayer in the early church are called in Latin Vespers, which is prayer at dusk, Compline, or prayer at night before bed, and Matins, which is prayer before dawn (Lauds being dawn prayer, which became a thing in both churches in times and places where less persecution was occurring and it was possible to pray openly during the day; the Eastern Orthodox service of Orthros combines Matins and Lauds, however, it is frequently sung together with Vespers and Compline in a lovely Saturday evening service called “All Night VIgils” which is in parishes abbreviated so as to take around two hours to two and a half hours; in some monasteries however, and among the Russian Old Rite Orthodox, the service can be up to five hours, and the Ethiopian Orthodox and Eritrean Orthodox, who are Oriental Orthodox, will have vigils that last 12 hours; indeed Ethiopian Christians will sometimes spend nearly 24 hours worshipping with breaks for a community meal; Ethiopian Orthodox Christians are in my experience extremely devout and loving and despite spending so much time praying they are extremely humble rather than being holier-than-thou about it.



Indeed, we would not be able to explain what happens in the monastery if we were.

Since we’re venturing offtopic for the thread, perhaps you might send me a PM? Or I could post a thread in a more appropriate forum for us to continue this exploration.
Snake handling is dangerous nonsense (thankfully, we don't have that in Britain).

I also believe that Mark 16:9-20 is canonical.

Ten resurrection gospels? What does that mean?

I believe the Ethiopian Orthodox view the so-called "Book of Enoch" as canonical, which I find somewhat disturbing. There is also quite a lot of persecution of non-Ethiopian Orthodox Christians in Ethiopia (and the equivalent, in Eritrea).

Feel free to post a new thread, if you want to.
 
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Cal_

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Do you have a point?
Try to focus Davie.

Then the church had peace in the Lord and being strengthened in the Spirit, continued to grow. Acts 9:31

Now may God grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus, 6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Rom 15
 
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David1701

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Try to focus Davie.

Then the church had peace in the Lord and being strengthened in the Spirit, continued to grow. Acts 9:31

Now may God grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus, 6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Rom 15
My name is not "Davie", it's David; and I have no problem focusing.
 
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Cal_

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My name is not "Davie", it's David; and I have no problem focusing.
Duly noted.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely...
He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 1:9
 
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fhansen

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One of the things that has been happening in the Church for the last 400 years has been opposition to the doctrine and experience of 'entire sanctification.'
This truth, revived by John & Charles Wesley in the 1700's was met with hostile opposition by both Christian and non-Christian alike. As it still is today.
What actually is 'entire sanctification' or as was John Wesley's preferred term, 'Christian Perfection'?
Here is a definition from the Church of the Nazarene web site:
We believe entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotion to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.
It is wrought by the baptism or filling of the Holy Spirit and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service.
Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness'.


What entire sanctification is NOT.
* Not a perfection in knowledge or freedom from ignorance.
*Not a freedom from mistakes.
*Not freedom from infirmities.
*Not freedom from temptations.
*Not freedom from the need for further growth in grace.

As I mentioned above, this belief and experience has met bitter opposition in the Church from the past to the present. Why?
*Some Christians are opposed to any teaching on the subject of Holiness.
*Some oppose it based on theology. e.g. Calvinism.
* Some believe that they are positionally 'Holy in Christ', and that is all that matters.
* Some believe it is unscriptural, and that the Christian will be 'dogged' by sin until they reach Heaven.

In my country, Australia, Holiness Churches did not exist till after World War 2. The Church of the Nazarene, Wesleyan Methodist Church, Church of God (Anderson) began works in Australia and were met by a hostile reception from local evangelicals and called heretics, holy rollers, and sinless perfectionists. They were viewed as a cult, like the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists. Many of the students from the Bible Colleges established by these Holiness Churches, upon graduating from were denied a place in Missionary Societies, Interdenominational organizations. During the 1959 Billy Graham Crusade, Church of Nazarene Christians were banned from any involvement in the Crusade, because of the belief in entire sanctification. Funny, the Wesleyan Methodist Church, which believes in entire sanctification, was allowed to participate in the Crusade. Go figure!
Over time, Evangelicals in Australia have softened their opposition, to Holiness Churches. Whether this is because the Evangelicals have become more benevolent or the Holiness Churches have toned down their witnessing to the reality entire sanctification, is a matter to ponder.

There are Churches today that still preach and teach and testify to the reality of entire sanctification throughout the world. Including the 3 Churches mentioned there are also the Global Methodist Church, a minority in the United Methodist Church, Free Methodist Church, several other Church of God groups, and many independent Holiness Churches and Missions, and others that I have not mentioned.

Heb 13:12,13 says, Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with HIs own blood, suffered outside the gate. Therefore, let us go forth to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.

For Holiness Christians, who have experienced the grace of entire sanctification, they know what it is like to 'suffer outside the gate........outside the camp, bearing His reproach. Despite the opposition, the sneers, the abuse, the vitriol, we will continue to testify and preach the reality of entire sanctification, of a heart cleansed from all sin and filled with Perfect Love, of a Savior, Jesus, who saves to the 'uttermost'.
It would seem that, if “growth in grace” is still necessary then the person would not yet be perfected. Either way, the goal is right, and laudable, the ideal, far superior to the positionally right theology or the teaching that man can never be right. But it’s too extreme in the belief that such perfection is completely attainable in this life. God will have perfection in us ultimately and this sanctification must begin in this life and involve the overcoming of sin with testing, refinement, and struggle but it won’t be completed until the next life.
 
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Cal_

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God will have perfection in us ultimately and this sanctification must begin in this life and involve the overcoming of sin with testing, ...
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? 2 Corinthians 13:5

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom 8:9-10
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ;
Grace and peace be multiplied to you ... 2 Peter 1:1-3
 
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fhansen

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Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? 2 Corinthians 13:5


To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ;
Grace and peace be multiplied to you ... 2 Peter 1:1-3
Yes, and it's important for us to understand that this righteousness is real for us, not strictly declared- it's like having a piece of Him in us, His life: living, directing, guiding, empowering.
 
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