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Mamdani’s ‘tax the rich’ slogan is ‘just as hateful’ as racial slurs, New York real estate titan says

lismore

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Deeper than what? Which group by name is the entitled group and which group by name another group? So vague!
Hello. Good to hear from you, I hope you're having a good day. In my experience of welfare in this country, which is perhaps further along the road than the United States, I'll give an observation that might better explain my point for you. Welfare is often a good thing and helps a lot of needy people, however it should be handled carefully. When people become dependent on welfare and see it as an entitlement it acts as a disincentive to work. For example I know many people, third generation on welfare, physically fit and with no interest in seeking employment because they don't have to, you can game the system and get a living. The amount of money the UK government spends on Welfare is ballooning year on year and has been of concern to a least two governments now, it will reach the point where it is unaffordable. And when the working man is taxed more and more to pay for benefits and sees their neighbour with the same standard of liivng that they have, but has never worked, it acts as a disincentive for the working man to work. Welfare should not be lifestyle, it's a temporary safety net.

God Bless You
 
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ThatRobGuy

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This analogy being appropriate would be like a person saying...well nothing really cause it's not appropriate.

You've been pooping on him since his election being nothing but cynical in what he says he'll accomplish.

There was a budget deficit of 12 BILLION.
New York Mayor Mamdani Applauded for Closing $12 Billion Budget Deficit Without Austerity Measures | Common Dreams
The state helped him with 30%. That means 60-70% he managed to deal with.

And yet you still poop on his efforts and minimize them by comparing him to a nepo kid.....a wonderfully capitalist example.
Common Dreams isn't really an objective source (hence the reason why I cited the NBC NY article), they're a collectivist slanted outlet that will likely shine a positive light on any collectivist politician.

Here's the key details that they're leaving out (one of them I already touched on, but I'll re-list it again)

The details:
--$8 billion in total state assistance over two years (Hochul/Albany), including $4 billion in new gap-closing support — $352 million in direct aid, $3.2 billion from programs requiring state authorization, $500 million in new revenue.

--More than $1 billion in savings came through delaying the state's mandated cap on class sizes. (delaying the enforcement of a self-imposed rule that was going to create part of the deficit, and then claiming it as a savings, is a bit of the creative accounting)

--$2 billion+ from pension amortization (restructuring payments — i.e., kicking them down the road).

So the bulk of the deficit closure came from state aid and accounting changes, not from Mamdani's own cost-cutting or revenue generation.



So, to expound on my earlier analogy.

I'd be like if I said "Look I paid off my credit card debt and got my finances in good shape for the upcoming year!"

And the mechanisms I used for that were:
- Got a big check from mom & dad
- Decided not to buy that new car I originally was planning on buying
- Got a debt consolidation loan so I could have lower payments now, and push the responsibility of paying it off a few years down the road




While there may be some truth to that, I think you would actually find that workers like this are MORE willing to talk about "making some shifts" like this if they ALSO see the rich having to pay more.

The previous system where everything falls on the worker to sacrifice, well that makes them reactionary if they don't see rich people sacrificing more for a system that has such an outrageous benefit plan for JUST them.
If you think "Hey I see that rich person is going to be paying more" is going to make any public sector union employee happy about getting less OT money, then I'll assume you haven't personally known any American public sector union employees. Perhaps that's a difference between Canada and the US (I know the culture is a little different between private sector unions like the CAW vs. UAW as well -- having known people in both).

Having one side of the family that were union guys, being able to milk some OT for extra cash is one of the perks they'll nonchalantly discuss.

Public sector overtime reform is one of the most consistently failed, and fought back against, budget reform approaches in American municipal government. (even in NYC, Deblasio and Adams both tried it as well)

Ample OT opportunities are often written into those contracts. You can't reform it by management or executive edict. You have to negotiate it away and the public sector unions have no incentive to part with it.
 
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iluvatar5150

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But it is the opportunity for some form capitalization that ultimately underpins these sorts of things?

That can take two forms, commercial application and military application.

Do any of these discoveries make it out of the chute and reach/impact the general public in any meaningful way without the kind of acceleration afforded by people looking to make some money off of it?

That wasn't the initial question, which was, "What was the last great innovation that occurred without the impetus of someone trying to get richer or without the capital backing of said people?"

There are plenty of innovations that happen without profit motivation all the time. I'd also add the entire open source software movement.

Without venture capital, these ideas never graduate out of the lab or the realm of the theoretical in a way that could change society?

And there are other innovations that most of us use and think nothing about, that were entirely capital backed from start to finish.

Obviously private financial interests have a been part in this, too, but the issue was why to put such a priority on protecting the people who try to siphon up as much money as possible. They'll keep making things that make them money.
 
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DaisyDay

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Hello. Good to hear from you, I hope you're having a good day. In my experience of welfare in this country, which is perhaps further along the road than the United States, I'll give an observation that might better explain my point for you. Welfare is often a good thing and helps a lot of needy people, however it should be handled carefully. When people become dependent on welfare and see it as an entitlement it acts as a disincentive to work. For example I know many people, third generation on welfare, physically fit and with no interest in seeking employment because they don't have to, you can game the system and get a living. The amount of money the UK government spends on Welfare is ballooning year on year and has been of concern to a least two governments now, it will reach the point where it is unaffordable. And when the working man is taxed more and more to pay for benefits and sees their neighbour with the same standard of liivng that they have, but has never worked, it acts as a disincentive for the working man to work. Welfare should not be lifestyle, it's a temporary safety net.

God Bless You
Thank you for your kind reply. I hope your day is going well.

Deeper than what? Keep in mind that the statement was "I think Mamdani will potentially dig a deeper hole..."
 
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Hans Blaster

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Right, so it didn't actually have any noteworthy impact on the every day lives of people until there was a relatively marketable commercial application for it and it actually started satisfy a public demand, and venture capitalists saw the potential and started throwing big bucks at it.
Way to invert that, man.

We've not yet seen the societal benefit of AI yet, but if AI development had relied on profit seeking for its development all we'd have now is a string of commercial failures that even VCs would have a hard time ignoring.

Web browsers and the internet weren't invented to sell cat toys delivered to your doorstep, but once they existed profit seekers saw an opportunity to make new modes of business using them.

I also note that you didn't include CRISPR in your response. When I hear about possible medical applications of that technology I don't hear things that *require* commercialization to be of benefit to humanity. Let's consider a related example:

Suppose a researcher at cancer institute discovers a new way to attack cancer cells (a chemical, a virus, radiation). In our very commercialized world of drugs and medicine, this usually is licensed to some company to make a drug/treatment, but the government health agency could just develop the method themselves, test it, and then administer it to all patients that need it. No commercial money is needed. Things don't work that way in our country because of the way healthcare is financed, but that doesn't make it the only way things can be done.
 
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lismore

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Thank you for your kind reply. I hope your day is going well.

Deeper than what? Keep in mind that the statement was "I think Mamdani will potentially dig a deeper hole..."
Hello Daisy. A debt hole, public debt will increase. It's what happened in this country. If spending increases without growth, the tax base can only be squeezed so far, borrowing increases. God Bless.
 
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FireDragon76

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Hello Daisy. A debt hole, public debt will increase. It's what happened in this country. If spending increases without growth, the tax base can only be squeezed so far, borrowing increases. God Bless.

Britain has been pushing to be a tax haven for billionaires for decades, and it hasn't worked to boost living standards for average Britons - it's gone hand in hand with austerity policies.
 
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Desk trauma

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Britain has been pushing to be a tax haven for billionaires for decades, and it hasn't worked to boost living standards for average Britons - it's gone hand in hand with austerity policies.
We all need to tighten our belts to help accommodate our betters.
 
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lismore

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Britain has been pushing to be a tax haven for billionaires for decades, and it hasn't worked to boost living standards for average Britons - it's gone hand in hand with austerity policies.
Hello! Yes it's true some possibly shadowy characters linked to controversial regimes like Iran and Russia live quite openly in the UK in luxury. There are some countries in the world where taxation is zero, tax the rich too far and they'll just move there, it's the world we're in.

In terms of austerity, public spending has been ballooning in the UK for many years now. Some people are inevitably finding it a hard time, hence the 'austerity' but the money is going somewhere. God Bless.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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New York —
No one likes higher taxes. But New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani’s plan to tax wealthy residents’ second homes has elicited a highly emotional response from two of the city’s richest.

“Creepy and weird,” is what Ken Griffin had to say Tuesday at a conference about Mamdani’s campaign-style video touting the tax outside the hedge fund manager’s $238 million penthouse.

Steven Roth, the CEO of real estate giant Vornado, went further Tuesday on an earnings call.

“I consider the phrase ‘tax the rich’ when spit out with anger and contempt by politicians both here and across the country, to be just as hateful as some disgusting racial slurs and even the phrase, ‘from the river to the sea,’” Roth said, referring to the pro-Palestinian phrase that the Anti-Defamation League labels an antisemitic threat.



This could make for an interesting conversation...

While I would personally critique Roth's approach of comparing a current financial situation to an immutable characteristic like race, perhaps the door has already been kicked open for people to define their own "here's what should be considered protected classes based on my opinion and current situation" grading standard.

"Being real-estate savvy is part of who I am, I can't control it, I didn't choose to proficient at doing this" isn't any more ridiculous than some other claims we've seen over the past few years.
Oh, it's hateful and short-sighted. I wouldn't say it is THAT hateful. Being rich isn't an immutable characteristic or a protected class.
 
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DaisyDay

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Oh, it's hateful and short-sighted. I wouldn't say it is THAT hateful. Being rich isn't an immutable characteristic or a protected class.
Why do you think "tax the rich" is hateful and short-sighted? It seems eminently sensible to me - have you seen the US Gini index these days? If the call were to "hang the rich" then you would be correct.

God bless the child that's got his own.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Why do you think "tax the rich" is hateful and short-sighted? It seems eminently sensible to me - have you seen the US Gini index these days? If the call were to "hang the rich" then you would be correct.

God bless the child that's got his own.
Because it is based on the false premise that the rich don't pay taxes. They DO pay taxes. The top 5% or so pay almost ALL the taxes - and then throw it away, mostly. The bottom 50% of earners only pay about 3% of the taxes.
 
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Belk

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Because it is based on the false premise that the rich don't pay taxes. They DO pay taxes. The top 5% or so pay almost ALL the taxes - and then throw it away, mostly. The bottom 50% of earners only pay about 3% of the taxes.
the bottom 50% control 2.5% of the wealth in the US. Exactly what percentage of the taxes do you believe they should be paying?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Because it is based on the false premise that the rich don't pay taxes.
You are incorrect. It is based on the premise that the rich do not pay enough taxes relative to the benefits that they receive from the system.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Systems of prolonged oppression, without a release valve, will result in the inevitable response. For the mega-wealthy, it is actually in their own self-interest to contribute more--because while you or me may not engage in violent revolution, history shows that this happens with significant regularity. As the wealth gap widens, as the middle class shrinks, as more and more ordinary people struggle, there will be a breaking point.

A reasonable billionaire would recognize that being a billionaire is only a short-term boon, and in the long term, they may find themselves on the chopping block.

It is perfectly reasonable that, proportionally, those who hold the most wealth also shoulder the most burden.

Maintaining the current course is, ultimately, going to result in very bad things. Just read a history book.
 
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