Have we done away with the law by means of faith?

fhansen said:

Yes:
"I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34

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Heb 8:
Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

That is the THIRD Temple! Up and running in 66 AD when Paul writes the book of Hebrews, even WHILE the 2nd temple in Jerusalem is still up and running.

6 But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

. 8 ... He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord (Christ), when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I (Christ) made with their fathers in the day when I (Christ) took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I (Christ) will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

According to Heb 8 it is Christ speaking in Jer 31, about the fact that it is He HIMSELF (Christ) speaking at Sinai

No wonder in Ex 20 HE says "Love me and keep My Commandments" Ex 20;6
and in John 14:15 HE says "If you LOVE Me , KEEP My Commandments"
and in 1 John 5:3-4 "THIS IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

Where as Eph 6:1-2 says "The FIRST Commandment with a promise is HONOR your father and mother"

And in Deut 5 HE says "He spoke the TEN Words and added no more". Only they were chiseled on stone
Yet as Jesus reminds us in MAtt 22 it is more than just the TEN that are included in the moral law of God

Xeno.of.athens said:

there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised man if he learns to believe, and the Gentile because he believes. Does that mean that we are using faith to rob the law of its force? No, we are setting the law on its right footing. ... You see, then, that it takes deeds as well as faith if a man is to be justified.

The law is not gone, it is in its right place. We are indeed justified by faith and we are justified by works, as the scriptures say (Romans 3:28, James 2:24)

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In Rom 5:1 we see that justification is completed past tense "Having BEEN Justified by faith WE HAVE peace with God"


But in James 2 and in Rom 2:13 we see "WILL BE JUSTIFIED"
Matt 7 Jesus says "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord WILL enter the kingdom of heaven , but rather He who DOES the Will of My Father" (future approval based on the record of what was done). 2 Cor 5:10 says the same thing

The salvation process begins with "Justified by faith" and is that same step, at every step.
But it ends with a 2 Cor 5:10 and Dan 7 objective corporate review of the record. where as Christ said in Matt 7 "The good tree is known by its good fruit"

Bad trees don't become good trees by producing good fruit.
Only a good tree can produce good fruit

BobRyan said:

Yep that is what it does for the lost.

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Actually, the law condemns anyone who breaks it, which your quote of Romans 2:13 makes clear. Believers are in no way immune from still earning the wages of death, IOW. Otherwise, it might have been simpler if you had just agreed with my post instead of replied to it , since I don't really see any disagreement and the ancient churches have always maintained that obedience of the ten commandments is necessary, obligatory.

The difference between the old and new covenants is not in whether we must obey, but in how and why we do so: with God or apart from Him, via the love He pours into our hearts, by the Spirit who gives life (under grace), or just on our own, by the Letter that can only kill.

This is why reconciliation with God first of all, accomplished by his Son, is paramount, because communion with God is paramount, because communion with God is justice and life for man and the very fulfillment of his created purpose.

BobRyan said:

In Rom 5:1 we see that justification is completed past tense "Having BEEN Justified by faith WE HAVE peace with God"


But in James 2 and in Rom 2:13 we see "WILL BE JUSTIFIED"
Matt 7 Jesus says "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord WILL enter the kingdom of heaven , but rather He who DOES the Will of My Father" (future approval based on the record of what was done). 2 Cor 5:10 says the same thing

The salvation process begins with "Justified by faith" and is that same step, at every step.
But it ends with a 2 Cor 5:10 and Dan 7 objective corporate review of the record. where as Christ said in Matt 7 "The good tree is known by its good fruit"

Bad trees don't become good trees by producing good fruit.
Only a good tree can produce good fruit

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So is a born again believer justified in God's eyes, by Law, by Grace and by Faith? God has invented three methods of salvation? --

And if one is justified by the Law, as you seem to think Rom 2:13 is teaching, doesn't one have to keep the entire law perfectly, since even one infraction makes one guilty of breaking the entire Law (Jas 2:10)? After all, the Law does teach that it's the doers of the Law who will live (Lev 18:5)! Perhaps this is why the Law is not of faith (Gal 3:12)?

Also, if you read Jas 2 very carefully, you'll find that the justification that is talked about in v. 24 is on the horizontal level -- that one's righteous deeds, good works, faithfulness to obeying God's will, etc. is proof to our fellow man that our claim to being believers is affirmed. Such believers are bearing good fruit that others can see and be influenced by.

Doran said:

So is a born again believer justified in God's eyes, by Law, by Grace and by Faith? God has invented three methods of salvation? --

And if one is justified by the Law, as you seem to think Rom 2:13 is teaching, doesn't one have to keep the entire law perfectly, since even one infraction makes one guilty of breaking the entire Law (Jas 2:10)? After all, the Law does teach that it's the doers of the Law who will live (Lev 18:5)! Perhaps this is why the Law is not of faith (Gal 3:12)?

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Rom 2:13 doesn't say that one is justified by the law, but that one must obey the commandments nonetheless in order to be considered righteous-without necessarily ever even hearing the law let alone being "under the law". IOW, righteousness is, simply...righteousness, as 1 John 3:7-9 explains, not a merely declared state but a real one, where one becomes personally righteous by the power of God by virtue of entering union/fellowship with Him through and on the basis of faith, and not solely by a declaration of His. And then we're called to live out and even increase in that gift of righteousness or holiness, that love, properly understood, throughout our lives.

To put it slightly differently, no one becomes just by obedience of the law, but only by a faith-born connection to the Vine, the only Source of true righteousness for man. This is how man was always meant to be. From there, now with Him, righteousness and good fruit may begin to flow from, in and through us.

Xeno.of.athens said:

I, for one, think that the NT is best read with Justify and its cognate forms understood as nuanced words meaning both the be forensically declared righteous and to be made righteous in practise.

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I think confusion entered the scene when it was conceived that a person might be justifed, and therefore saved, by no more than being declared to be just- and not by anything that they do or righteouness they may have even after or as a result of justification: of being made just. This also easily leads to the doctrine of OSAS/eternal security because, after all, a declaration is a declaration and our actions are irrelevant anyway. Shades of antinomianism can't help but creep in here-or at the very least the waters get muddied as to whether or not any righteousness/ actual obedience is at all required in order to get to heaven/ see God.

Ancient Christianity held that righteousness is a free gift given (infused, imparted) at justification but also that this gift must be valued: embraced and acted upon, lived out, expressed, "invested" as the parable of the talents puts it-and grown-for whatever time and opportunity we have during the rest of our lives. Salvation is worked out, together with He who works in us.

fhansen said:

but that one must obey the commandments nonetheless

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Yes as the 10 commandments are the will of God. Why would we want to carry on what Adam and Eve started by putting their will ahead of God’s and seeking ways to self justify doing so?

timothyu said:

Yes as the 10 commandments are the will of God. Why would we want to carry on what Adam and Eve started by putting their will ahead of God’s and seeking ways to self justify doing so?

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Yes, why would we-especially since now man finally has the ability to no longer be clothed in those filthy rags due to the reconciliation with God that's been wrought by His Son?

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

fhansen said:

Yes, why would we-especially since now man finally has the ability to no longer be clothed in those filthy rags due to the reconciliation with God that's been wrought by His Son?

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We still have to pledge allegiance to the counter-culture of the Kingdom

timothyu said:

We still have to pledge allegiance to the counter-culture of the Kingdom

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We have to make effort to do His will, which, yes, is not of this world, while He, Himself, initiates and crowns those efforts. It's a partnership, by His wise discretion.