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Aliens, UFOs and the demonic: Thinking like Christians about the weird stuff

Jipsah

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Because "of the details" actually IN Rev 16 and 19.
not seeing that at all.
Texts that literally address the topic of end time, end of the world, All nations being instructed to gather together , Armageddon , Christ and His armies appearing in heaven, all armies of Earth gathered in opposition, destroyed in a singular event... IN THE TEXT
Yeah, but none of that particulaly supports your take on what leads up to the final battle. That's pretty imposing a :meaning" on Scripture that comes from a scenario that yiu've thunk up a priori. Is this a common belief amongst SDAs?

as opposed to "making stuff up"
You don't appear tp be that opposed to it.
You don't appear to be willing to address anything but man made traditions outside of the Bible.
I hate tp break this to you, but that appears to be all youre offering.
Why do that?
I'll bite. I don't know of anyone who believe anything like what you're describing.
All Christians agree that Aliens are NOT humans.
I think you'd find out pretty quickly that most Christians don't particularly believe in "aliens" at all. Most of us arewn't particularly adamant about the humanity or lack thereof of critters we don't believe exist at all. It's no good worrying about whether aliens are human or not if there aren't any aliens.
Angels are NOT humans
Bobody that I know of thinks they are. Then again I don'y know of anyone but you who uses the words "alien" and "angel" as though they were synonyms.
, NOT from Earth. Even fallen angels are NOT from Earth.
That makes them "aliens" by definition.
Insistence on that word game doesn't help whatever argument you're trying to make.
This part is not even a tiny bit difficult.
Not difficult, just silly. Most Christians believe in angels and demons matter of faith. Some Christians believe in aliens, but I'd wager most don't. Very few Christians believe that "aliens" and "angels/demons" are the same thing. That's what makes your ideas sound so bizzare.
Rev 163 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
Yeah, so we've all read. Where do the flying saucers come in?
14 for they are spirits of demons, (by definition, "aliens")
By your definition. Unfortunately, that's now the word "alien" is taken to mean. You're kinda hoist on your own linguistic petard.
Rev 16 does not say one word about "angels attacking Earth"
That much is true. I
You make it appear as if you have no use at all for the texts identified for this topic in my initial response.... curious
I think it has more to do with your painfully awkward attempt to turn Spacemen and Flying Saucers, which probably don't exist at all, into essential parts of the Revelation narrative. We'll, E for Effort, but I don't think you've made your case at all. Your main problem is still this: You say "aliens are demons", and the response is "Wha aliens?" As well declare that aliens built the pyramids (as some actually do.) Fine, but first you have to demostrate that there are any aliens at all. You assume it a priopri. Most folks don't. And there the discussion ends.
 
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truthuprootsevil

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1. Angels by definition are "aliens" they don't come from New Jersey or any place at all on Earth
2. NT records fallen angels as beating up on a would-be exorcist. They can have real physical impact according to the Bible
3. Stuff exists that is not on Earth
4. There is absolutely nothing that UFO type aliens claim to be able to do that Satan and his angels cannot do for real.
5. God created planet Earth without any difficulty and He can create more than one World in one Universe.
6. The only fallen beings we know of are human and 1/3 of the Angels. If we were to encounter more God likely would let us know about it in the Bible so I assume that this is all "the fallen beings" that are in the Universe. Everyone else is sinless and fully informed about our problem.

The UFO "story" is needed by Satan to get humans to buy into the Armageddon event in Rev 16 so humans will align themselves against Christ in Rev 19 as if humans expect an evil empire army to show up from space and attack them.

So while I do not reject the idea that God can create sinless beings some place besides the garden of Eden in Gen 1. I don't think the list of intelligent fall beings goes beyond humans and fallen Angels.

The idea that "travel is not possible from some place else to Earth" is just utter nonsense. The fact that humans cannot yet do something does not mean that no created being in the entire universe can also not do that same thing.
I agree

They are extraterrestrial beings according to the definition of the word.

The ancients refer to them as angels today they're referred to as et's or extraterrestrials or aliens when seen.

Not everyone sees them but they are becoming more visible as time continues to pass to millions of more people who report these things.

Indeed, those who don't know Christ will be screaming alien invasion, preparing for war, wrong move.

The Bible refers to the heavens, Paul referred to three heavens. Heavens is universes...... Jesus said in my Father's house are many mansions and he's not speaking of one big building with a bunch of little buildings inside of it; he's speaking of the heavens the universes that are out there and whatever life form God has chosen to put in them....... Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you where I am you may be also (that's another universe) a new heaven and a new Earth. And the new Earth will not have oceans, a sun, or a moon. This heaven and Earth will be destroyed with a loud noise and melt with intense heat.

Man himself has knows if man could travel at the speed of light or faster time would stop for them. The faster one goes the slower time becomes until time actually hauts.
Is Time Travel Possible? | NASA Space Place – NASA Science for Kids Is Time Travel Possible? | NASA Space Place – NASA Science for Kids

Gravity Probe B - Special & General Relativity Questions and Answers Gravity Probe B - Special & General Relativity Questions and Answers
 
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The Liturgist

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Angels (both fallen and unfallen) are by definition ALIEN to Earth.

This does not mean that demons will in the Eschaton pose as little green men from the planet Zormlarkus V sent here to save our civilization from the avenging angels of God.

Also I would note that demons have been doing what Revelation 16 describes since always, and at least most of the time have not needed to appear in any form at all. Only on a few very rare occasions have they taken form, to impersonate God or various saints and saintly angels - it seems probable that Muhammed was persuaded to compose the Quran by a demon posing as St. Gabriel the Archangel, which in typical fashion later abandoned him resulting in confusion when Muhammed contradicted himself in the infamous “Satanic Verses” controversy which was famously popularized in recent years by the Persian writer Salman Rushdie, who a few years ago lost an eye and was nearly killed by an Islamist fanatic attempting to put into effect one of the numerous fatwas issued against him for offending Islam with that novel (this by the way is an example of demonic activity par excellence; it is also on the basis of the reality of Revelation as the lived experience of the Christian church including continuing tribulation and the perpetual reign of Christ that many such as myself and the 150 holy fathers at Constantinople in 381 AD such as St. Gregory the Theologian interpret it according to the amillenialist principle.
 
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The Liturgist

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They are extraterrestrial beings according to the definition of the word.

That does not mean they must of necessity appear claiming to be from another planet, which was the implication being made earlier in the thread that @Jipsah and myself and @MarkRohfrietsch disagree with.

Now, I believe that alien abductions are a demonic delusion, and that most UFO sightings can be traced to weather phenomena or experimental and high altitude aircraft (they are likely to increase given that a New Mexico-based company just developed a lighter than air airship similar in shape to the Goodyear Blimp or a Zeppelin which unlike previous airships is designed to operate at 60,000 feet to provide internet service in remote areas such as the forests of South America, and these will look like hovering flying saucers to the untrained eye). However we have also seen the dangers of UFO cults like Heaven’s Gate, which were the subject of some concern from the Eastern Orthodox theologian Fr. Seraphim Rose in his 1976 book Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future.

Now to be clear, this point is not a question of fact but of interpretation, and no prophecy is of any private interpretation according to St. Peter (or to use a variant reading, no prophecy is an exposition of itself), and in the case of Revelation it is possible that demons will show up in the form of a delegation of Vulcans led by Mr. Spock, and indeed if they did so they might attract a positive reception, but rather, I object to saying that the text must be interpreted as meaning that demons will appear in the form of aliens, since the text in question is (a) not ambiguously about a time in our future, there being amillenial and preterist interpretations of it as well as futurist and premillenial futurist interpretations such as premillenial dispensationalism developed and popularized by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren in the 19th century (which many people argue is the only correct interpretation, but that’s not the interpretation believed in by Adventists, who have their own premillenial interpretation), and what is more, the text does not contain the word alien or imply that demons will claim to be from another planet.

Man himself has knows if man could travel at the speed of light or faster time would stop for them. The faster one goes the slower time becomes until time actually hauts.

Congratulations, you’ve just stated Special Relativity.

Although interestingly, that’s not actually correct, in that under General Relativity, spacetime itself can move faster than the speed of light, and has been observed doing so, in that the rate at which the universe is expanding is faster than C (the speed of light) and we are on a planet in that expanding universe. There are solutions to the equations of general relativity such as the Einstein-Rosen Bridge and the Alcubierre Drive that could in principle allow for faster than light travel, but would require negative energy or exotic matter in order for us to do so, and as yet we don’t have either or know that it exists.
 
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truthuprootsevil

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That does not mean they must of necessity appear claiming to be from another planet, which was the implication being made earlier in the thread that @Jipsah and myself and @MarkRohfrietsch disagree with.

Now, I believe that alien abductions are a demonic delusion, and that most UFO sightings can be traced to weather phenomena or experimental and high altitude aircraft (they are likely to increase given that a New Mexico-based company just developed a lighter than air airship similar in shape to the Goodyear Blimp or a Zeppelin which unlike previous airships is designed to operate at 60,000 feet to provide internet service in remote areas such as the forests of South America, and these will look like hovering flying saucers to the untrained eye). However we have also seen the dangers of UFO cults like Heaven’s Gate, which were the subject of some concern from the Eastern Orthodox theologian Fr. Seraphim Rose in his 1976 book Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future.

Now to be clear, this point is not a question of fact but of interpretation, and no prophecy is of any private interpretation according to St. Peter (or to use a variant reading, no prophecy is an exposition of itself), and in the case of Revelation it is possible that demons will show up in the form of a delegation of Vulcans led by Mr. Spock, and indeed if they did so they might attract a positive reception, but rather, I object to saying that the text must be interpreted as meaning that demons will appear in the form of aliens, since the text in question is (a) not ambiguously about a time in our future, there being amillenial and preterist interpretations of it as well as futurist and premillenial futurist interpretations such as premillenial dispensationalism developed and popularized by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren in the 19th century (which many people argue is the only correct interpretation, but that’s not the interpretation believed in by Adventists, who have their own premillenial interpretation), and what is more, the text does not contain the word alien or imply that demons will claim to be from another planet.



Congratulations, you’ve just stated Special Relativity.

Although interestingly, that’s not actually correct, in that under General Relativity, spacetime itself can move faster than the speed of light, and has been observed doing so, in that the rate at which the universe is expanding is faster than C (the speed of light) and we are on a planet in that expanding universe. There are solutions to the equations of general relativity such as the Einstein-Rosen Bridge and the Alcubierre Drive that could in principle allow for faster than light travel, but would require negative energy or exotic matter in order for us to do so, and as yet we don’t have either or know that it exists.
Hello Again

No that doesn't mean they're from another planet. And I didn't say planet or indicate planets / I said heavens / universes. My comment was not directly to the one who posted the post, at least I thought it wasn't but to another member.

There are many sightings that have been analyzed to be weather balloons or or some type of anomaly in the sky BUT there are sightings that cannot be proven one way or another. There are millions of people all around the world on each continent and many many countries that report these sightings of unexplainable crafts making maneuvers that man cannot make..... So much so that the most capable governments China, the US, Russia, Britain, Australia, Brazil, are actively continually searching for those unidentified aerial phenomenon now called UAP's instead of UFOs in the US.

I said people will be screaming alien invasion when they see Jesus coming back from the sky, I didn't say that it was a prophecy, if that's why you are referring to the Vulcans and Spock from Star Trek.

I never said demons will appear in the form of aliens, nor do I believe they are. I think I said angels are extraterrestrials according to the definition of the word. As I've said for a over a decade angels are not from the Earth they are not made of anything of the Earth and the definition of extraterrestrial is anything with a life form or not that is not from Earth or of the Earth. And when I look at what is written in scripture concerning angels and what **I have seen what they can do** _ what millions have stated throughout decades what these Extra-Terrestrial crafts do I see a perfect connection and not asking you to agree with or even contemplate on.

And the US since 1947 and Roswell has had eight different government organizations searching for UFOs from Project Sign to Project Blue book. AND released to the public a few things


.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8-S-OE_-AH0


John Nelson Darby, Margaret McDonald, I am a post tribulation believer _ that the church will endure the tribulation ........ My studies showed me that it was Billy Graham and Oral Roberts that made dispensationalism popular after the 1950s of the 20th century. Before then it wasn't as widespread as it became.

You said congratulations to me / for what, that's like saying I'm stupid and overcame stupidity.

You disagree with me and my statements of what Einstein has said and with the NASA link provided and others, fine disagree, you should correct them.


Gravity Probe B - Special & General Relativity Questions and Answers Gravity Probe B - Special & General Relativity Questions and Answers

I forgot to speak on abductions it's a possibility that some abductions are true, I personally don't believe all the stories I've heard or read about. People have said for decades they were used in experiments / using humans making hybrid babies and such / that would take us to the Book of Enoch and whatever belief one has for Genesis 6 and who the sons of God were who married the daughters of man and their idea of the nephilims ..... And the amount of people that were being abducted prior to the 1990s have slowed down tremendously, actually rarely hear of abductions or they're not reporting it.
 
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BobRyan

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This does not mean that demons will in the Eschaton pose as
Rev 16 says demons "pose as something" to all the heads of all the governments...to get them to assemble the armies that we see in Rev 19 that are said to be there to oppose the army coming down from heaven to Earth. The Army that kills all the humans in those armies according to Rev 19.

"now you say" that the demons in Rev 16 can't possibly "look like this ... or like that" as if you have personally seen the form they will take.

Rev 12 tells us that it is Satan himself appearing as the "serpent of old" in Gen 3..

It appears that you have no clue at all about what they will choose to appear as. One thing we do not is that they will not show up as "hey we are the bad guys, ignore us unless you want to follow the devil".

The NT says Satan appears in disguise as "an angel of light" and that is how his servants work as well.

Your entire argument rests on what yous supposedly know about the form the "spirits of devils" in Rev 16, will take when they contact the humans at the head of the government.


Also I would note that demons have been doing what Revelation 16 describes since always,
I guess that "suggestion" would work for those not actually reading the Rev 16 text (which so far appears to be the case in your posts )

You have not addressed a single detail actually in the texts under discussion.
How in the world is that supposed to lend credibility to your "suggestions" ???

Try taking this part of the Bible seriously
 
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BobRyan

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There are many sightings that have been analyzed to be weather balloons or or some type of anomaly in the sky BUT there are sightings that cannot be proven one way or another. There are millions of people all around the world on each continent and many many countries that report these sightings of unexplainable crafts making maneuvers that man cannot make..... So much so that the most capable governments China, the US, Russia, Britain, Australia, Brazil, are actively continually searching for those unidentified aerial phenomenon now called UAP's instead of UFOs in the US.
That is true.

IN a very similar way ghosts/spirits of the dead/ and fake claims about ghosts..are all real events and some are faked while others are cases of people seeing something the way Eve saw the serpent in Gen 3.
I said people will be screaming alien invasion when they see Jesus coming back from the sky,
Certainly some may do that.

And the armies of Earth gathered in Rev 19 to oppose Christ and His army coming from heaven (as we see them doing in Rev 19) adds credibility to your statement.
I said angels are extraterrestrials according to the definition of the word.
yep. That is true. Whether they be good angels or evil ones
 
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BobRyan

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Hello Again

... I am a post tribulation believer _ that the church will endure the tribulation
That is called Historic PreMillennialism because it is the oldest view. The denomination I belong to also holds that view.

But where you and I differ on the post-trib rapture is that I (my church) believe that the rapture is literally/physically exactly what the preTrib and midTrib groups say it is (only it happens post-trib). So then IT is all the saints being raptured bodily to heaven as we see in Matt 24:31 and it is postTrib as we see in Matt 24:29.

In any case there are about 24 million of us (so then larger than the SBC) and Christianity Today calls it the 5th largest single Christian denomination in the world.. and I say that to make the point that this historic preMill postTrib view is not exactly unheard of among Christians even today. It still exists.
 
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The Liturgist

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"now you say" that the demons in Rev 16 can't possibly "look like this ... or like that" as if you have personally seen the form they will take

No, you’re putting words in my mouth - I never said anything of the like. Strawman fallacy. And this is the second time in the past two weeks where you have misrepresented my argument.

I have explicitly acknowledged the possibility they could appear as aliens, and indeed have acknowledged that such has likely happened and that UFO cults are demonic.

Rather I argued that your claim that they positively would appear as aliens was not parsimonious, that it is unreasonable to assert with absolute certainty that they will take the form of aliens when there are other forms if they could take, assuming that the premillenial interpretation is correct (I obviously disagree with premillenialism because the Second Ecumenical Synod in 381 explicitly rejected it in their proceedings - that is why the revised Nicene Creed of 381 says of our Lord “His Kingdom shall have no end.” And I believe this council to be more reliable than contemporary or 19th century church leaders (such as John Nelson Darby, with his pre-millenial dispensationalism, or the premillenial sabbatarianism of your denomination).

The same council by the way expressly denied Papal supremacy as did Nicaea; the canons of Nicaea and Constantinople affirm that the churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople and Cyprus have the same rights and privileges as the church of Rome - in the case of Constantinople, unlike at Nicaea, there were no representatives of Rome or any Western church, which makes it almost unique among the ecumenical synods, since all others (except, if I recall, perhaps the fifth ecumenical synod) had Roman legates present and Pope Leo I played a major and very controversial role at Chalcedon - the council of Constantinople on the other hand consisted only of Greek-speaking fathers of what would become the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches, so attempts at attributing the council to the Roman Catholic Church as if the Pope decreed it would be contrary to the facts. That I do positively assert, whereas in the case of the future, I cannot definitely assert anything; I believe amillenialism is probable because the fathers of the second ecumenical council rejected it, however, since the eschaton hasn’t happened yet, and no prophecy is its own exposition according to 2 Peter, well, it could be the case (and St. Irenaeus of Lyons and St. Justin Martyr were chiliasts).

Your entire argument rests on what yous supposedly know about the form the "spirits of devils" in Rev 16, will take when they contact the humans at the head of the government.

You seem to be projecting - my entire argument is that we can’t know the form that such demons would take and the specific assertion that they must impersonate aliens from another planet as opposed to other persuasive figures is not logically parsimonious, since you made an extremely specific assertion about what form the demons must take as opposed to merely speculating that they might take such a form.

My original argument, which you are misrepresenting, was simply this:

Forgive me, but I don’t see why that’s the case. Assuming for the moment that such an interpretation of Revelation is correct in general*, the argument that the devil specifically needs UFO mythology in order to manipulate humans into aligning themselves against Christ is so specific as to lack logical parsimony. Additionally, Scripture is clear that humans align themselves against Christ by default and only are able to align themselves with Christ and follow Him through the Grace of the Holy Spirit.

As should be evident, I did not claim the demons would not take the form of demons.
 
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BobRyan

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Rev 16 says demons "pose as something" to all the heads of all the governments...to get them to assemble the armies that we see in Rev 19 that are said to be there to oppose the army coming down from heaven to Earth. The Army that kills all the humans in those armies according to Rev 19.

"now you say" that the demons in Rev 16 can't possibly "look like this ... or like that" as if you have personally seen the form they will take.

Rev 12 tells us that it is Satan himself appearing as the "serpent of old" in Gen 3..

It appears that you have no clue at all about what they will choose to appear as. One thing we do not is that they will not show up as "hey we are the bad guys, ignore us unless you want to follow the devil".

The NT says Satan appears in disguise as "an angel of light" and that is how his servants work as well.

Your entire argument rests on what yous supposedly know about the form the "spirits of devils" in Rev 16, will take when they contact the humans at the head of the government.

your "suggestions" only work those not actually reading the Rev 16 text (which so far appears to be the case in your posts )

You have not addressed a single detail actually in the texts under discussion.
How in the world is that supposed to lend credibility to your "suggestions" ???

Try taking this part of the Bible seriously

No, you’re putting words in my mouth - I never said anything of the like. Strawman fallacy.
state a fact please
I have explicitly acknowledged the possibility they could appear as aliens, and indeed have acknowledged that such has likely happened and that UFO cults are demonic.
Then are you posting "much ado about nothing"???
Why post as if you are certain the text cannot possibly mean what it says "in the details" that it mentions, in some of your posts?
Rather I argued that your claim that they positively would appear as aliens
I don't claim to have a video I simply point out that by definition angels (bad angels in the case of Rev 16) are not from Earth so then "alien" and they are engaged in misleading all governments on Earth as Rev 16 says, to assemble their armies as Rev 19 says to oppose Christ's army as it comes to Earth from Heaven as Rev 19 says.

I did not claim the demons would not take the form of demons.
noted
 
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truthuprootsevil

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That is called Historic PreMillennialism because it is the oldest view. The denomination I belong to also holds that view.

But where you and I differ on the post-trib rapture is that I (my church) believe that the rapture is literally/physically exactly what the preTrib and midTrib groups say it is (only it happens post-trib). So then IT is all the saints being raptured bodily to heaven as we see in Matt 24:31 and it is postTrib as we see in Matt 24:29.

In any case there are about 24 million of us (so then larger than the SBC) and Christianity Today calls it the 5th largest single Christian denomination in the world.. and I say that to make the point that this historic preMill postTrib view is not exactly unheard of among Christians even today. It still exists.
I don't recall going into detail of how I feel the events of the rapture will occur.

I believe that the rapture as it is called will take place; that the dead in Christ will rise first and we will be caught up together to meet Christ in the air. That is what both pre and mid tribulation rapture believers teach the only thing I disagree with is the timing.

Now I do not believe that our bodies, these flesh bodies is what is raptured but our spirits will rise to meet the Lord. Making way for our new bodies, for we shall be like him, and see him as he is, 1 John 3:2.

From my understanding, my personal knowledge, and studied knowledge the majority of the church's teach pre-trib rapture, which became famous from oral Roberts and Billy Graham.

I looked up what the fifth largest denomination and they have around 64 million. Baptist fall under Protestants, which there is an ongoing debate some accepting some Protestant roots while others don't . So much division.
 
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BobRyan

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. I have explicitly acknowledged the possibility they could appear as aliens,
I have mentioned that same thing a time or two.

I don't see the need to "agree disagreeably"
and indeed have acknowledged that such has likely happened and that UFO cults are demonic.
indeed they are
Rather I argued that your claim that they positively would appear as aliens was not parsimonious, that it is unreasonable to assert with absolute certainty that they will take the form of aliens when there are other forms
You have no such library of forms for demons appearing to leaders of human governments to persuade them to assemble armies. You are not in a position to exclude the observation that: Rev 16 and 19 make it appear demon spirits call for the assembly of human armies to confront the nonEarth army of Rev 19 just as the text states.

I guess we all know that.

My point is that demons are not from Earth and the human armies of Rev 19 are not opposing an army from Earth according to the text but rather armies coming TO Earth from a nonEarth location with Christ at their head (according to a reasonable reading of the text)
revised Nicene Creed of 381 says of our Lord “His Kingdom shall have no end.”
I never argue otherwise
And I believe this council to be more reliable than contemporary or 19th century church leaders (such as John Nelson Darby, with his pre-millenial dispensationalism,
I am not dispensationalist
or the premillenial sabbatarianism of your denomination).
its called "Historic Premillennial" and is far older than the start of the Adventist denomination and is not the subject of this thread

You seem to be projecting - my entire argument is that we can’t know the form that such demons would take
I don't have any "The exact form is known" statements in my posts
and the specific assertion that they must impersonate aliens from another planet as opposed to other persuasive figures is not logically parsimonious,
1. "as opposed to other persuasive figures" is incredibly ambigous to the point of meaning nothing. It can't be used as an argument against any suggested form.
2. I said nothing about an exact form and I know of no one on this thread that has said they know the exact form of some alien from another planet


since you made an extremely specific assertion about what form the demons must take as opposed to merely speculating that they might take such a form.
"such a form" as what??. I have not identified/suggested/specified any exact form so far
As should be evident, I did not claim the demons would not take the form of demons.
not not?
 
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BobRyan

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I don't recall going into detail of how I feel the events of the rapture will occur.

I believe that the rapture as it is called will take place; that the dead in Christ will rise first and we will be caught up together to meet Christ in the air. That is what both pre and mid tribulation rapture believers teach the only thing I disagree with is the timing.
So then you agree with PreTrib and MidTrib that the rapture of 1 Thess 4 takes all the saints bodily to heaven for some period of time as they teach?
Now I do not believe that our bodies, these flesh bodies is what is raptured but our spirits will rise to meet the Lord. Making way for our new bodies, for we shall be like him, and see him as he is, 1 John 3:2..
1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 5 seem to say that we get new bodies at the resurrection that takes place at the rapture.
I looked up what the fifth largest denomination and they have around 64 million.
Using the strict criteria that a denomination is a single "church" (denomination) have exactly one set of doctrine across all locations for that denomination (rather than aggregating groups together having a mix of doctrine and still having a few doctrines in common) ChristianityToday came up with that ordered list in 2016
Baptist fall under Protestants, which there is an ongoing debate some accepting some Protestant roots while others don't . So much division.
I think Baptists can be classed as Protestant , but SBC is the largest Baptist "denomination" and it is not above 20 million
 
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The Liturgist

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Then are you posting "much ado about nothing"???
Why post as if you are certain the text cannot possibly mean what it says "in the details" that it mentions, in some of your posts?

In answer to the first question, because the second question shows that you were and still are misrepresenting the contents of my posts in a strawman argument. I never posted as if I was certain the text could not possibly mean that, I rather posted that it seemed such a specific argument was lacking in parsimonious and that it was unreasonable to assert that:

The UFO "story" is needed by Satan to get humans to buy into the Armageddon event in Rev 16 so humans will align themselves against Christ in Rev 19 as if humans expect an evil empire army to show up from space and attack them.

This has nothing to do, obviously, with the alien nature of demons, but rather with the issue of what you call the UFO “story”, that is to say, your positive assertion that Satan needed to use it for purposes of manipulating humanity in the Chiliast interpretation of chapters 16 and 19 the Apocalypse of St. John, since that argument, as I pointed out, seemed oddly specific, and it makes a definite assertion about what will happen in the Apocalypse, which I myself never made. I never said that the devil will not use UFO mythology, rather, I criticized your post for saying that the devil needed to use it, as if it is the only sufficiently seductive mode of reasoning that could be employed in such a hypothetical.
 
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The Liturgist

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Oh. I see. And this was revealed to you via....?

Hmmm... I don't recall Rev saying that evil angels will persuade humans that they're actually ET aliens so that the deceived humans will join the evil angels to fight against the forces of our Lord.

Well, that idea is certainly... original. I don't see any Scriptural warrant to believe any such thing, but hey, it's a free coutry.

OK, i'm trying to see how the Bad Aliens posing as Good Aliens are going to persuade pretty much everybody on Earth that the Hosts of Heaven are Bad Aliens and to go out and fight them. Isn't that what you're s

Uhhh, sure.

It’s a pity dear Jipsah I can’t spontaneously produce the kind of amusing replies that you are capable of! This is very amusing, and I am very amused, and good heavens this sentence looks stilted, but alas, in my recently completed novelette “An unpleasant evening in Constantinople” I did manage to self-consciously satirize myself by writing a character who utters the line “Very good, you having done that, we are, amused by that, yes.”
 
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BobRyan

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The UFO "story" is needed by Satan to get humans to buy into the Armageddon event in Rev 16 so humans will align themselves against Christ in Rev 19 as if humans expect an evil empire army to show up from space and attack them.
This has nothing to do, obviously, with the alien nature of demons, but rather with the issue of what you call the UFO “story”
The topic of this thread... as it turns out.
And yes they are aliens in Rev 16 by definition that is what external intelligent life is ... angels (good or bad) are alien to Earth instead of 'born here"

Which is an obvious fact and hardly with bickering over the obvious
, that is to say, your positive assertion that Satan needed to use it for purposes of manipulating humanity
which is what we see him doing in Rev 16 in the details you refuse to reference
in the Chiliast interpretation of chapters 16 and 19
Rev 16 does not mention the millennium at all.. why do you keep dragging it into REv 16.
Are you not reading the text??
it makes a definite assertion about what will happen in the Apocalypse
the book of revelation (the Apocalypse) deals with events past , present and future. Pick a lane.
I never said that the devil will not use UFO mythology
so then no need to agree disagreeably
I criticized your post for saying that the devil needed to use it
I connection with Rev 16 and 19, my comment is perfectly logical and even your constant objections provide not one better suggestion ... just complaints that the good one I am making ... is made
 
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The UFO "story" is needed by Satan to get humans to buy into the Armageddon event in Rev 16 so humans will align themselves against Christ in Rev 19 as if humans expect an evil empire army to show up from space and attack them.

And you accuse me of making arbitrary claims about what will happen in the eschaton?

Just as there is no way I can positively declare the above will not happen (and indeed - I did not), there is no way for you to assert that the above will happen, since the text in Revelations does not specifically identify the form the demons will take in seducing the leaders of the world.

(Indeed, from an amillenial perspective the experience of the Orthodox Church has been that they will take whatever form is most advantageous to them, often impersonating unfallen angels, or taking the form of pagan deities (see Psalm 95 v. 5 LXX, “the gods of the gentiles are demons” or its somewhat less helpful Masoretic variant, Psalm 96 v. 5, “the gods of the gentiles are idols”, in either case, something demons can easily pass themselves off as”, or indeed in all probability being involved to some extent in some aspects of the UFO movement, specifically in people who believe they’ve had some positive interaction with beings from other planets, for example, in the late 1990s I met a young woman who was under the demonic delusion that she was being counseled in some form by some extraterrestrial power; one could imagine the Desert Fathers and St. Ignatius Brianchaninov with exasperation shouting at her ‘no, you’re not, it’s the devil, repent and run to the Church, run for your life!” since the Cross of Christ is our only defense against such delusions.

However in the grand scheme of things, UFO mythology represents only a tiny fraction of the ways in which demons manipulate humanity; if we look at a broader picture of the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, far more people were deceived by Islam (indeed this is by far the biggest deception), Mormonism, the Jehovah’s Witnessses and other non-Trinitarian forms of Christianity (and consider, if someone can be persuaded to deny the Trinity and the Incarnation, one cannot worship God in spirit and truth, since God is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and in the person of the Son became man for our salvation, as the Nicene Creed says), and various reincarnationist and ancient Pagan and animist religions of the Far East and the Indian Subcontinent, such as Buddhism, Shinto, Hinduism, Confucianism, Daoism, Chinese folk religion, Korean shamanism, Hindu, Sikhism, Jainism - all religions which have attracted interest and in many cases converts from the West, particularly Buddhism and Hinduism, as well as various syncretic religions such as the Bahai Faith and Unitarian Universalism (which started out as denying the Trinity and then expanded to denying the specific truth of Christianity and then denying the concept of truth on a philosophical level; I find myself wondering what happened to Trinitarian Universalists after the merger with the Unitarians, if they left for other churches like the United Church of Christ or if there are still some present - there are a few UUA churches which are tolerant of Trinitarians, and always were, but did not insist on the Trinity as being essential, for instance, King’s Chapel in Boston, which had been associated with the Church of England before the revolutionary war but after the Declaration of Independence decided to strike out on its own and later join the Unitarians, having modified the Book of Common Prayer to delete the Creeds and all references to the Trinity (although as was typical of early Unitarianism, not the references to Jesus Christ as Lord, as there was a faint whiff of Arian heteroousia doctrine remaining by implication).

However if we read the Life of Anthony, by St. Athanasius, or the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, or the Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John Climacus, or the Arena of St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, and the Scripture those texts refer to (indeed one could read Scripture itself but the problem is in some cases our preconceived) it becomes clear that most of the time the devil will seduce us with human desires - the passions of greed, lust, wrath, slothfulness, despair, idle-talk, vanity, vindictiveness, avarice, gluttony, and pride (which is particularly dangerous as it tends to ensnare the most accomplished and disciplined Christians who have overcome the other sinful passions through ascetic effort enabled by the grace of the Holy Spirit).

Thus, my entire argument is that you can’t know that the devil will need to make use of the UFO “story” in the Eschaton as your post claims, if indeed the premillenial interpretation of your church should prove correct.
 
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the book of revelation (the Apocalypse) deals with events past , present and future. Pick a lane.

The Apocalypse deals with all three, yes, even from an amillenial perspective we assert that (the only people who would deny that are full preterists whose beliefs I regard as almost incomprehensibly strange) so you’re asking me to only refer to it in one such context?

I have no idea what point you’re trying to make there.
 
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1. "as opposed to other persuasive figures" is incredibly ambigous to the point of meaning nothing. It can't be used as an argument against any suggested form.
2. I said nothing about an exact form and I know of no one on this thread that has said they know the exact form of some alien from another planet

No, on point 1, I am saying that the demons have a vast cast of characters including other humans, other religious figures, divine angels, as well as impersonal temptations to rely on in order to delude us. The idea that they will need to use the UFO story specifically in the eschaton is unwarranted presumption.

On point 2, you say that, but then you say:

The UFO "story" is needed by Satan to get humans to buy into the Armageddon event in Rev 16 so humans will align themselves against Christ in Rev 19 as if humans expect an evil empire army to show up from space and attack them.

This statement and “I said nothing about an exact form and I know of no one on this thread that has said they know the exact form of some alien from another planet” are by implication contradictory, since you have asserted that the UFO story is definitely required, which puts an exacting constraint upon the specific forms of deception that will be used. It narrows the field from the entire spectrum of demonic deceits to a question as to whether or not we’re dealing with demons acting as little green men, or as the gray aliens with elongated eyes, or perhaps Vulcans or Pandorans (the “Naa’vi”, which is a title just begging for a parody after the fashion of the Village People) or some other beneficent alien species from science fiction.

And then in another post you told ME to “pick a lane.”

It increasingly appears that you are applying a double standard to my arguments, in that not only are you incorrectly characterizing them, but you then criticize their mischaracterized form for faults that your own arguments also possess, which would be indicative of a double-standard.
 
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@prodromos are you familiar with Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Fr. Seraphim Rose? Since it, along with the Desert Fathers, the Life of St. Anthony, the Ladder of Divine Ascent, the Philokalia and other foundational Patristic and Orthodox texts have become relevant here in that the issue of whether or not UFOs will definitely or merely possibly be employed in a hypothetical premillenial eschaton, or in the more probable amillenial interpretation of the Apocalypse which we as Orthodox believe, are actively employed in order to deceive the leaders of humanity and lead them into prelest, has become relevant. Since it seems to me that UFOs are merely the latest tool the devil has in his belt along with a vast array of other methods of deception.
 
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