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Have we done away with the law by means of faith?

BobRyan

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Actually, the Sabbath is the 4th commandment.
ok I am fine with that. The numbers are not assigned to each commandment in the actual Hebrew manuscripts but the Jews had that custom of numbering the commandments such that the Sabbath was the 4th commandment and that is the numbering that Protestants use.

In Romans 3 Paul says of the Jews "they were entrusted with the the oracles of God" meaning they are custodians of the OT Canon so I am fine with that.
But that's okay. I suspect that you being a Catholic and me being a Protestant of the Reformed Tradition, no less ,will not agree on many things.
Actually this is one of those points where you and I may both agree. (numbering of the Ten Comm) I am not Catholic I am Seventh-day Adventist and we use the Protestant system for example Historicism and Historic Premill etc.
But...have you figured out what "man" and the "sabbath" have in common in Mk 2:27?
I see that as a reference to the making of both mankind and the Sabbath in Gen 1-2 where we see both "made"

Mark 2:27 'the Sabbath was made for mankind , not mankind made for the Sabbath. ... are reference to the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath in Mark 2 . And Gen 1-2 also deals with the making of both mankind (Gen 1) and the Sabbath Gen 2:1-3. Ex 20:11 in the Sabbath commandment goes directly back to Gen 2:1-3
 
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RandyPNW

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There is no adapting the Kingdom to fit into the governments of man.
So I'm to take your word for this? Or, should I take the Bible at its face statement? The Bible plainly states that the Kingdom was taken from Israel and given to another nation. What does that mean but that the Kingdom of God had become enmeshed with the earthly government of the Davidic kings?
 
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truthuprootsevil

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there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised man if he learns to believe, and the Gentile because he believes. Does that mean that we are using faith to rob the law of its force? No, we are setting the law on its right footing. ... You see, then, that it takes deeds as well as faith if a man is to be justified.

The law is not gone, it is in its right place. We are indeed justified by faith and we are justified by works, as the scriptures say (Romans 3:28, James 2:24)
Amen

Well said
 
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timothyu

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The Bible plainly states that the Kingdom was taken from Israel and given to another nation.
Judea perhaps. But show me one other nation that God called His own over the 70 fallen that were given control of by elohim who rebelled, let alone any nation today that follows the will of God in loving all as self..
 
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truthuprootsevil

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Then we cannot possibly be justified by grace, since grace,by definition, is unmerited, unearned favor
The Ten Commandments are the Law / singular which is still in effect.

Jesus said he didn't come to *abolish* the law but to fulfill it. And because it has been fulfilled does not mean it is not still in effect.
Matthew 5:17 - Bible Gateway Matthew 5:17 - Bible Gateway

Jesus said *obey my Commandments* What are the Commandments he gave two new ones or what translators translated as new. They are not new / it is The Ten Commandments broken down into two / the first four of the Ten Commandments is to love God the next six is to love each other and which Jesus said to love God first and to love each other second.

What is The Ten Commandments other than telling us a overall view of what sins not to commit. Being under Grace and Faith without regard to the law is basically saying you can do what you want to do God will forgive you. Paul address that
Romans 6:15 - Bible Gateway Romans 6:15 - Bible Gateway

Paul said we're under grace and some teachers interpreted One / Way while others interpreted another way. Indeed we are under grace / yet we still have to abide by the law. Is SIN; adultery _ fornication _ idolatry _ envy_ drunkenness _ thievery _ lying _ cheating _ to disregard God _ and so many other human ungodly Acts? If those things and others are sin why are not to do such things and the possibility of facing damnation if we continue to do so? The Ten Commandments covers them all in the last six Commandments to love your neighbors / your brother and the first four not to disregard God

Law and Grace - You are not under law but under grace Romans 6:14 Law and Grace - You are not under law but under grace Romans 6:14
 
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timothyu

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The Ten Commandments are the Law / singular which is still in effect.
Yes, they are the Will of God and we are to always put His will first over that of elohim or mankind alike..

Jesus said he didn't come to *abolish* the law but to fulfill it. And because it has been fulfilled does not mean it is not still in effect.
Yes, He did the Will of the Father, thus fulfilling it. At no point in scripture does it say mankind no longer has to put the Will of God first.

esus said *obey my Commandments* What are the Commandments he gave two new ones or what translators translated as new. They are not new / it is The Ten Commandments broken down into two / the first four of the Ten Commandments is to love God the next six is to love each other and which Jesus said to love God first and to love each other second.
Exactly. Grace gave us a way past the first death. The second death still awaits those who fail to stop putting their will ahead of His. He has given us His Will since the Garden and the Bible is the history of mankind refusing to do so, save for a few.
 
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Doran

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ok I am fine with that. The numbers are not assigned to each commandment in the actual Hebrew manuscripts but the Jews had that custom of numbering the commandments such that the Sabbath was the 4th commandment and that is the numbering that Protestants use.

In Romans 3 Paul says of the Jews "they were entrusted with the the oracles of God" meaning they are custodians of the OT Canon so I am fine with that.

Actually this is one of those points where you and I may both agree. (numbering of the Ten Comm) I am not Catholic I am Seventh-day Adventist and we use the Protestant system for example Historicism and Historic Premill etc.

I see that as a reference to the making of both mankind and the Sabbath in Gen 1-2 where we see both "made"

Mark 2:27 'the Sabbath was made for mankind , not mankind made for the Sabbath. ... are reference to the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath in Mark 2 . And Gen 1-2 also deals with the making of both mankind (Gen 1) and the Sabbath Gen 2:1-3. Ex 20:11 in the Sabbath commandment goes directly back to Gen 2:1-3
Good observation, sir! You're exactly right! Both mankind and the sabbath were created by God in time and space. And there are profound implications to this truth -- so deeply profound that this becomes the fundamental "acid test" in determining what is eternally and intrinsically moral and what isn't! So, permit me to unpack this truth to prove that ALL the sabbath commands (including the 4th) in the bible are not eternally and intrinsically moral, which makes them temporary in nature, and, therefore, moral only up to the point where they expire in temporal reality.

Let me explain this last sentence. Recall when God commanded Abraham to offer up Issac as a sacrifice to God? But who here thinks that human sacrifices to God is an eternal truth and that such sacrifices in and of themselves morally inhere in God? But at the same time, there is a paradox here. Abraham was most definitely morally obligated to obey God for the duration of God's testing of Abraham's faith. And so it is with all the ceremonial ordinances, civil statues and dietary laws in the Covenant Law of Moses. The OC people of God were morally obligated to obey those temporary laws until their expiration date, which occurred at the Cross of Christ which is when the New Covenant was ratified in Christ's blood, rendering the Old Covenant null and void! And this is why the 4th commandment is not repeated in the NT. But I don't want to get ahead of myself until I lay out my argument. I will argue initially from the Royal Law (the 2 Greatest Commandments upon which all the Law and Prophets are hinged), and then apply it to the Decalogue. So here we go. Buckle up <g>.

The commands to love God and to love our neighbor are eternally and intrinsically moral truths, since all the Law and the Prophets (that is to say, the entire OT!) hinges on these two commandments. We also know that Love does no wrong. We know that Love covers a multitude of sins. And Love unselfishly and proactively seeks the general welfare and good of others, etc.. This and much more all make God an intrinsically moral being.

Also, Love isn't something that God created; rather, Love is something that God eternally is in His very essence. Love is as "ancient" as the Ancient of Days is! To deny this truth is to deny that the three Persons of the Godhead eternally loved each other!

These truths stand in sharp contrast to the created and temporary ceremonial, civil and dietary laws. It's no wonder, whatsoever, that Moses characterized the 7th day sabbath as being a ceremonial law when he listed the 4th commandment first in the long list of other sabbaths in Lev 23! In fact, Moses considered the 7th day sabbath a feast day, along with all the others in this chapter.

And, of course, Jesus made that well known analogy in Lk 6:3-5 in which He drew a parallel between one type of religious ritual that David and his companions violated and another ritual of weekly observance of the 7th day. It is on the basis of the ritualistic aspects of both types that Jesus was able to logically make this analogy.

Paul taught that the ceremonial days were but types and shadows of the Substance (Col 2:16-17), namely Christ. Also, Paul himself drew an analogy between the observation of "special" days and the dietary laws (Rom 14:1-8)! In this passage, he teaches that we all have the freedom to observe special days or not, or to eat only vegetables or not -- according to the dictates of our conscience -- not the Law!

Having said all that, in which category do the other 9 commandments in the Decalogue belong: Eternal and Intrinsically moral or Temporal and Temporally moral? I think Paul answers that for us in Rom 13:8-10; for stealing, murder, envying, adultery, etc. all militate violently against God's eternally righteous and holy nature -- and he wraps up these commandments in the blanket of Love! Even Jesus himself taught essentially the same truth (cf. Mat 19:18; Mk 10:19; Lk 18:20). The consistent absence of the 4th commandment in all these passages speaks volumes to the temporal and temporary nature of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was created by God in time and space and the Sabbath Day ceased in time and space; for the Sabbath was a shadow that pointed to God's ultimate spiritual rest: Christ! Christ is the "[an]other" Day (Heb 4:8) of which God spoke about later, since He is the Light of the World. And He is this Light EVERY DAY of the week!

Before I close out this post, I will address an anticipated objection to this preponderance of biblical evidence that some sabbatarians might try to make via Isa 66:23 which reads:

Isa 66:23
23 From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath ,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the Lord.

ESV

Three observations should be made. First, this is figurative language that actually denotes eternal worship. How we can know this with certainty is that there is no progression of time in eternity. Eternity is the infinite NOW, the infinite TODAY -- the Today that never had a beginning and will never have an end. There are no yesterdays or tomorrows in the new eternal order. The prophet uses such language to accommodate our finite understanding of the infinite! It was his way of addressing ongoing, ceaseless, endless worship.

Another way we can know this is symbolic language is that there will be no moons (new, old or otherwise) in the eternal order; therefore, it's illogical to think that there will be a succession of new moon festivals. Jesus himself tells us there will be no need for the sun or the moon (the two major temporal markers of Time of this world!) since God Himself will be the Light of the saints and the Lamb will be their Lamp (Rev 21:23).

And lastly, all Typology is a one-way street! All typology flows from past Old Covenant historical persons, events, institutions, etc. to the ETERNAL New Covenant Substance, which is Christ who totally and perfectly fulfills all the types and shadows of the temporary Old Covenant era. There's no going back ever to the weak and beggarly types and shadows (Gal 4:9-10) of this new eternal covenant order.
 
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Doran

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Judea perhaps. But show me one other nation that God called His own over the 70 fallen that were given control of by elohim who rebelled, let alone any nation today that follows the will of God in loving all as self..
His Catholic (universal) and borderless Church is that Nation. Christ gave himself for that nation (his Church)!
 
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timothyu

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His Catholic (universal) and borderless Church is that Nation. Christ gave himself for that nation (his Church)!
Then we are not of this world as Jesus said. His Kingdom was not. Neither should we follow the traditional ways of man.
 
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Doran

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Then we are not of this world as Jesus said. His Kingdom was not. Neither should we follow the traditional ways of man.
Exactly! Since the Head [of the Body] was and is not of this world, then neither is his Body (Christ's Church); for we are under Christ's theocratic rule. Biblical Theocracy is still alive and well in this world through Christ ruling over his Church.
 
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BobRyan

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Recall when God commanded Abraham to offer up Issac as a sacrifice to God? But who here thinks that human sacrifices to God is an eternal truth
In fact God stopped even Abraham from doing it and in Lev 18 condemned any of mankind that would dare try it. So that one never really got off the ground as a 'general command" even for one person, Abraham.

Lev 18:
21 You shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the Lord. .. 24 ‘Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled
. And so it is with all the ceremonial ordinances
Heb 10:4-11 explicitly says all sacrifices and offerings end at the cross.
Yet we have the 'Every Sabbath" worship services and gospel preaching in Acts 18:4 that continue
And this is why the 4th commandment is not repeated in the NT.
"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 is the only commandment that is not quoted , not even in part, in the NT. The Sabbath commandment is quoted from a number of times and "every Sabbath" observance is found even in Acts.

Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

I find that very convincing.
But I don't want to get ahead of myself until I lay out my argument. I will argue initially from the Royal Law (the 2 Greatest Commandments upon which all the Law and Prophets are hinged), and then apply it to the Decalogue.
James 2 reminds us that the TEN are included in "The Royal Law"
Matt 22 is where Christ reminds us that the LAW Of Moses in Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" and the LAW of Moses in Lev 19:18 'Love your neighbor as yourself" have always been the foundation upon which all scripture "All the Law and prophets" are based right from the start
The commands to love God and to love our neighbor are eternally and intrinsically moral truths,
Just like "do not covet" and "Do not take God's name in vain" . Moral law applies to all mankind for all eternity.

Even though (as in the case of Ex 20:7 "do not take God's name in vain" the command is not explicitly quoted in the NT
since all the Law and the Prophets (that is to say, the entire OT!) hinges on these two commandments. We also know that Love does no wrong. We know that Love covers a multitude of sins. And Love unselfishly and proactively seeks the general welfare and good of others, etc.. This and much more all make God an intrinsically moral being.
And we know
"Love Me and keep My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"If you Love me Keep My Commandments" John 14:15
"This IS THE LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3-4

Shows us the moral obligation in the Law of Love, to actually obey God rather than living in rebellion against His Word
It's no wonder, whatsoever, that Moses characterized the 7th day sabbath as being a ceremonial law when he listed the 4th commandment first in the long list of other sabbaths in Lev 23!
He does not say it is "ceremonial" in Lev 23 , and there is no animal sacrifice ceremony in Gen 2:2-3 when according to Ex 20:11 the Sabbath "Was made' a holy day, sanctified for mankind... made for mankind.

So then not too surprising to find Is 66:23 saying that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"
In fact, Moses considered the 7th day sabbath a feast day, along with all the others in this chapter.

And, of course, Jesus made that well known analogy in Lk 6:3-5 in which He drew a parallel between one type of religious ritual that David and his companions violated and another ritual of weekly observance of the 7th day.
There is no violation stated by Christ in Luke 6 regarding the Sabbath. Jesus fully complied with the Law and the prophets as a perfect sinless sacrifice. "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT. Jesus' accusers accused Him and His disciples of a great many things.

The act of leasurely plucking a head of grass while walking was never condemned in the actual law of God OT or NT. The Jews were simply "making stuff up" as Christ pointed out in Mark 7:7-13
It is on the basis of the ritualistic aspects of both types that Jesus was able to logically make this analogy.

Paul taught that the ceremonial days were but types and shadows of the Substance (Col 2:16-17), namely Christ.
true. And none of them were to be continued for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth... unlike the seventh day Sabbath as Is 66:23 points out.

So then we have "every Sabbath" worship services and gospel preaching in Acts 18:4 to BOTH gentiles and Jews in the NT
Also, Paul himself drew an analogy between the observation of "special" days and the dietary laws (Rom 14:1-8)! In this passage, he teaches that we all have the freedom to observe special days or not, or to eat only vegetables or not
1. Not one law in the OT says we can only eat vegetables. Rom 14 statements about vegetables is not about an OT Law.
2. The special days of Rom 14 are about the annual holy days of Lev 23 of which all but 3 were optional even in the OT for the men and ALL were optional for the women even in the OT. Yet the 7th day Sabbath always applied to all
-- according to the dictates of our conscience -- not the Law!

Having said all that, in which category do the other 9 commandments in the Decalogue belong:
James 2. To break one is to break them all
God "spoke these ten words and "added no more" Deut 5
Eternal and Intrinsically moral or Temporal and Temporally moral? I think Paul answers that for us in Rom 13:8-10; for stealing, murder, envying, adultery, etc. all militate violently against God's eternally righteous and holy nature
Not one mention in Rom 13 of "do not take God's name in vain" or "Love God with all your heart"
-- and he wraps up these commandments in the blanket of Love!
Indeed. IT was always the Law of Love even in Gen 2:2-3
Even Jesus himself taught essentially the same truth (cf. Mat 19:18; Mk 10:19; Lk 18:20). The consistent absence of the 4th commandment in all these passages speaks volumes
Ex 20:7 "do not take God's name in vain" is missing from all those texts "consistently" and means nothing in terms of rejecting that command

Making rules up is not a safe way to define ways to cut out moral law
The Sabbath was created by God in time and space and the Sabbath Day ceased in time and space; for the Sabbath was a shadow
Ex 20:8-11 points back to Christ as Creator in Eden before sin. IT was not created to rescue mankind from sin.
He is the Light of the World.
That has always been the reality even in Gen 2. Nothing has changed in that regard
And He is this Light EVERY DAY of the week!
yep. As always
Isa 66:23
23 From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath ,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the Lord.

ESV

Three observations should be made. First, this is figurative language that actually denotes eternal worship.
which does not pass the test of exegesis. Isaiah's readers had NO BASIS for imagining that "from Sabbath to Sabbath " means '"every day for all eternity". Reading such a meaning into the text is eisegesis in that case.
How we can know this with certainty is that there is no progression of time in eternity.
No text says that minutes will cease to exist in the new Earth.
No text says the Earth will not rotate or that we will never be able to schedule meetings etc.

When there is "no time" then there can be "no event" and with "no event" then there is learning.

We will not "Be God" in heaven or the New Earth.
Another way we can know this is symbolic language is that there will be no moon
No text says that
s (new, old or otherwise) in the eternal order; therefore, it's illogical to think that there will be a succession of new moon festivals. Jesus himself tells us there will be no need for the sun or the moon
The city has no need for sun or moon in the new Earth. Is not the same thing as "Sun and moon won't exist"
 
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fhansen

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The vid rightly divides law and grace since man is justified by grace, not the law (Rom 3:24)! Scripture says that man cannot please God without FAITH (Heb 11:6); and that whatever is not of FAITH is sin (Rom 14:23...AND the Law itself is not of faith (Gal 3:12)! IOW, you do a great disservice to the Christian Faith by apparently insisting that obedience to Law is on par with or even greater than faith! The vid is spot-on because the natural inclination of the unregenerated, depraved heart is for sinners to make God a debtor to their obedience -- an obedience that is devoid of any true saving faith! Sinners naturally believe they can earn God's favor! This is why ALL the world's religions are based on works; whereas salvation within biblical Christianity is based on grace through faith! This is what sets Christianity apart from all the dead religions of the world!

Having said all that, I'm not saying that FAITHFULNESS to God's revealed will isn't expected of born again believers. Since Faith itself is a divine gift of God, we can be sure that the flip side to that coin is faithfulness; for biblical faith works through God's love; and love is what moves the regenerated human heart to want to please God.

Finally, you should try to understand that keeping all the negative commands of the Decalogue (save for the 5th commandment) still makes us unworthy servants; for we are only doing our duty -- what is required of us (Lk 17:7-10)! But the Two Greatest Commandments go far beyond mere refraining from sin! The Royal Law of Love impels us to proactively seek doing good to and for our neighbor. After all, Love does no wrong/harm to a neighbor (Rom 13:10); for it positively and actively SEEKS the Highest Good of others; just as Jesus came into this world to not serve himself but His Father and sinners! Agape Love within our hearts enables us to esteem others more highly than we do ourselves!

So...if you want to boast about the importance and place of Law in a Christian's life, then boast in the Cross of Christ, his grace and His agape love within us which empowers us to proactively serve God and others. Obedience to this Royal Law of Love written on all the hearts of God's elect's is infinitely more difficult than merely keeping the letter of commandments written on stone. This is why the New Covenant promises are unilateral in nature! There are NO conditions in the NC promises for God's people to meet. God Almighty himself sovereignly and graciously fulfills those promises, thereby making his chosen people willing in the day of his power (Ps 110:3). Our faith, therefore, should not be in our [will] power to obey, but rather in God's power (1Cor 2:5)!

Agape Love is the game changer in a believer's life; for it is God's precious love within us that protects and guards us from becoming mere legalists bent on serving the letter of the Law; but it does empower us to serve God by keeping the spirit of His Holy Law.
Hmm… Since I never said anything about being justified by the law-just the opposite in fact- I'll assume you’ve commented without reading my posts with any real care. Anyway, the real crux of the problem here is that the Reformers thought that righteousness was merely imputed/declared rather than freely given, that a person is made just by declaration only. And that’s not Christianity. Righteousness is righteousness; we either have and express it, or not-with or without regard to the law. And, again, the new covenant/gospel is not a reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous while it acknowledges that man cannot be righteous by observation of the law. Yes, only love can do that; and love comes only by nearness to its Source. Love is man’s righteousness as God is man’s righteousness-so the first step in man's righteousness is reconciliation with God: the reason Jesus came here. If you turn to and remain in Him and in that love you will produce much fruit. Anything else is just talk.

And, yes, that love is difficult to cultivate in us, obstinate as we can be in our pride- which favors self over love of others. Love is both a gift and a daily human choice-as faith and hope are as well. But love we must-that’s our full-true obligation in a nutshell. And there are, indeed, conditions besides faith that must be met, as Scripture-which I’ve quoted and you’ve apparently ignored- makes clear, but love will meet them as it obeys and does right by its nature, willingly. It’s just not automatic-God isn’t interested in puppets-our wills are involved from our first encounter with that love until the end of our lives. Then He judges us-on our love. Have we embraced it? Do we truly value it as we value Him, who is love, above all else?

Love is what distinguished the Good Samaritan from the others, love fulfills the law, love is the criteria that separated the sheep from the goats in Matt 25. Love is what overcomes the deeds of the flesh in Rom 8:12-13 as the Holy Spirit pours out that love into our hearts-Rom 5:5. The video, OTOH, insists on none of that: faith is only to acknowledge and rely on our forgiven status-and grace involves that forgiveness only according to the video. But here’s the new covenant in the fuller perspective, quoting Jer 31:33-34

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.” I will pour my love into them: Rom 5:5

“I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” I will be reconciled with them, with communion between us now established as they turn to Me in faith.

“No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,
declares the Lord.” That personal, direct knowledge, that union, is the essence of man’s justice and his salvation: ref John 17:3

“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” Forgiveness is the primary first step in this vital renewed and reconciled union between man and God.

Basil of Caesarea, a 4the century believer, put it this way:
“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”
 
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fhansen

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true.

true.

"Love Me and Keep My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is Old Testament Ex 20, and also Gospel (John 14:15) and also Apostolic letters such as 1 John 5:3-4 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

But more to your point above... take a look at this Do Bible Sabbath keepers and the Catholic Church Agree on Certain points?

There #1 I show Catholic statements in approved documents affirming some of my positions.
Yes, the CC as well as the Eastern Orthodox affirm that the TCs are obligatory, as many Protestant denominations continued to do (it's simply not ok to deny or dishonor God- or to murder, commit adultery, etc, but not to do this as "works of the law" done by virtue of being "under the law" but fulfillable only by being under grace, meaning to be walking in the Spirit now, by the power of the love given us by Him.

This is why direct, personal knowledge of and communion with God is the heart of the new covenant because 'apart from Him we can do nothing', John 15:5. Adam had thought otherwise. We're here to learn that Adam was wrong. As man turns back to God in faith he's already moved into a state of justice/righteousness and so the result of that vital relationship is righteousness (love) within man.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, the CC as well as the Eastern Orthodox affirm that the TCs are obligatory, as many Protestant denominations continued to do (it's simply not ok to deny or dishonor God- or to murder, commit adultery, etc, but not to do this as "works of the law" done by virtue of being "under the law"
Rom 3 makes it clear that Paul often uses the phrase "under the Law" to mean "under the condemnation of the LAW", for all have sinned and so all are condemned.

Rom 3: 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.vs 23 "ALL have sinned"

He never argues that the lost person "obeys the Law"

This is why direct, personal knowledge of and communion with God is the heart of the new covenant because 'apart from Him we can do nothing', John 15:5.
Which is exactly how Moses and Elijah can stand WITH CHRIST in Matt 17 even before the cross ever happens.

It is the Jer 31:31-34 NEW Covenant
 
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fhansen

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Rom 3 makes is clear that Paul often uses the phrase "under the Law" to mean "under the condemnation of the LAW", for all have sinned and so all are condemned.
Rom 3: 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.vs 23 "ALL have sinned"

He never argues that the lost person "obeys the Law"
Yes, and?? Romans 3 and elsewhere makes it clear that the law can justify no one so that we need a different righteousness, apart from the law, and that righteousness comes by virtue of being reconciled with and in communion with God. The law can only serve to condemn because it cannot justify but only reveal and convict us of our unjust status, our unrighteousness, our sin.
Which is exactly how Moses and Elijah can stand WITH CHRIST in Matt 17 even before the cross ever happens.

It is the Jer 31:31-34 NEW Covenan
Yes:
"I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord."
Jer 31:33-34
 
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BobRyan

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Rom 3 makes is clear that Paul often uses the phrase "under the Law" to mean "under the condemnation of the LAW", for all have sinned and so all are condemned.
Rom 3: 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.vs 23 "ALL have sinned"
Romans 3 and elsewhere makes it clear that the law can justify no one
Gal 3 says the Law is in no way conflicted with the Gospel.
Rom 3 above says that for the lost the purpose of the Law is to condemn all sinners.

Heb 8 says that under the New Covenant that same Law is "written on the heart" as Jer 31 points out.
Rom 8 says that the New Covenant enables obedience and those outside of it "do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"

A great many people see the point of the condition that lost are in ... but how few understand the New Covenant Spirit led obedience To God's Word aspect of the Gospel these days.
The law can only serve to condemn

Yep that is what it does for the lost.

But as Rom 8:4-11 (And Rom 3:31 ) point out, for the saved it is written on the heart
Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? God forbid!! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

James 2:21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. 22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts,
 
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