Christians should condemn both Israel and Hamas.

Aiden1 · Jan 21, 2025

Yarddog said:
Are you Jewish? If not, we follow the teaching of Jesus Christ.

That's an interesting statement. We follow an unchanging God, and though there are ritualistic and strictly Jewish traditions in the OT, God and His character have not changed. This was a very cheap way of writing off the reality that God is not anti-war, but I believe when war is appropriate, it's justified. Israel is God's holy people, and though they are not exempt from wrongdoing, they are eliminating specific threats who happen to be surrounding themselves in civilians, as opposed to Hamas that has been firing rockets at Israel for years. Back to the original statement though, Jesus has been present throughout history, the Angel of the LORD (whom I believe to be a Christophany) directed many wars, and Jesus is going to return and slay His enemies.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 21, 2025

Yarddog said:
Are you Jewish? If not, we follow the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Who was Jewish...and taught Torah

Yarddog · Jan 21, 2025

Yarddog said:
Are you Jewish? If not, we follow the teaching of Jesus Christ.

And? Israel was under the Mosaic law, at the time, which said "an eye for an eye". If nations allowed Israel to pass through their lands freely, on the way to the promise land, Israel was to peacefully pass. If those nations rose up to battle against them, Israel was to wipe them out.

Jesus, though, changed this and said that they should no longer judge that way. Christians are told "Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Matthew 5 : 38
but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5 : 39

Aiden1 · Jan 21, 2025

Yarddog said:
And? Israel was under the Mosaic law, at the time, which said "an eye for an eye". If nations allowed Israel to pass through their lands freely, on the way to the promise land, Israel was to peacefully pass. If those nations rose up to battle against them, Israel was to wipe them out.

Jesus, though, changed this and said that they should no longer judge that way. Christians are told "Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Matthew 5 : 38
but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5 : 39

Yes, and that's a good argument. My point is that Jesus has not replaced Mosaic law, He has fulfilled it (Matt 5:17), God has not somehow changed His worldview or His stance on any given topic. The point of Jesus refining, "an eye for an eye," to, "turn the other cheek," was not because He got it wrong the first time. People turned what was supposed to be motivation not to sin against each other into a way of treating one another generally. "An eye for an eye," was God's instituting punishment and justice for sinners, who, for example, beat a pregnant woman or a slave, that they would be punished justly. God isn't calling for the removal of justice. Jesus doesn't, however, want us to brutalize each other as a result. God wants us to forgive one another and be merciful, but there is a time for war (Ecc 3:8). God is a warrior (Exodus 15:3), and "turn the other cheek," does not mean letting foreign countries decimate you, not standing up for yourself, and being submissive, always. In the case of Israel-Hamas, Hamas is in the wrong for attacking God's people without justice, and Israel is eliminating terrorists and active threats, as mentioned before. God is not anti-war because of a single verse pulled out of context, and the OT is not invalid to us as Christians because it's still God's Word, though not all ancient Jewish traditional law would apply to us.

Yarddog · Jan 21, 2025

Aiden1 said:
Yes, and that's a good argument. My point is that Jesus has not replaced Mosaic law, He has fulfilled it (Matt 5:17), God has not somehow changed His worldview or His stance on any given topic. The point of Jesus refining, "an eye for an eye," to, "turn the other cheek," was not because He got it wrong the first time. People turned what was supposed to be motivation not to sin against each other into a way of treating one another generally. "An eye for an eye," was God's instituting punishment and justice for sinners, who, for example, beat a pregnant woman or a slave, that they would be punished justly. God isn't calling for the removal of justice. Jesus doesn't, however, want us to brutalize each other as a result. God wants us to forgive one another and be merciful, but there is a time for war (Ecc 3:8). God is a warrior (Exodus 15:3), and "turn the other cheek," does not mean letting foreign countries decimate you, not standing up for yourself, and being submissive, always. In the case of Israel-Hamas, Hamas is in the wrong for attacking God's people without justice, and I Israel is eliminating terrorists and active threats, as mentioned before. God is not anti-war because of a single verse pulled out of context, and the OT is not invalid to us as Christians because it's still God's Word, though not all ancient Jewish traditional law would apply to us.

Citing the OT to justify how Christians are to act doesn't necessarily work. You'd be better using Abraham to justify your issue for a just war. He wasn't under the Mosaic law, like Christians.

Hamas are terrorists that attacked Israel and took many hostage. Abraham had a similar event and he went and attacked the kidnappers and recovered the victims.

Aiden1 · Jan 21, 2025

Yarddog said:
Citing the OT to justify how Christians are to act doesn't necessarily work. You'd be better using Abraham to justify your issue for a just war. He wasn't under the Mosaic law, like Christians.

Hamas are terrorists that attacked Israel and took many hostage. Abraham had a similar event and he went and attacked the kidnappers and recovered the victims.

I mean, 2 Timothy 3:16 pretty clearly states that all scripture is God-breathed and useful. Romans 6 speaks to the being apart from the law, and yet not going on in sin because to serve (be a slave of) God is to obey Him. Romans 3 speaks to being apart from the law through God's grace, and yet not nullifying it because of that grace. So, the OT is definitely applicable today. The idea that we're not under Mosaic law but under the New Covenant is true (Romans 6:14), but what that means is that the only way to salvation is through Christ (John 14:6-7), and that we (as Christians) aren't expected to be perfect (by God's standard) to get to Heaven (Romans 3:23); not that we have no responsibility to obey the Law. What your viewpoint seems like (stepping away from Israel-Hamas), is that the Old Testament no longer applies since Christ came, and a dangerous assumption based on that principle is that we can do anything we want because Christ forgave us. I'm not saying you actually think this way, but this is what taking away from the importance of the Old Testament Law often leads to. Mosaic law is important, it's still God's word, and it still applies to us today. The difference is that unlike the followers of God before Christ came, we can enter God's grace even though we've broken His Law and so enter His grace apart from the Law. On a side note, Abraham was not exempt of the punishment of sin, or the responsibility to act uprightly, even though the Law had not been given to man, but Abraham still served the God who made the Law and punished evil even before Moses lived. So we as Christians are still expected to follow God and honor Him in life. One of the most basic ways to do that is to abstain from the things condemned in God's Word and obey His law (in the grace of Christ, because we fail). The Law defines good and evil, and thus, none of us can be saved by it (ergo, the need for Christ), but a misinterpretation of this principle is that the only thing we as Christians should consider is the New Testament. That is silly and foolish for many reasons. So, rabbit hole aside, the idea that Israel is also in the wrong because the only thing Christians should consider is the New Testament, and Christ said, "turn the other cheek," is false. there's more we have to consider, context to God's written Word that does not only include submissiveness. God is not a passivist (as evidenced throughout His entire Word), and neither should we be.

Yarddog · Jan 21, 2025

Aiden1 said:
I mean, 2 Timothy 3:16 pretty clearly states that all scripture is God-breathed and useful. Romans 6 speaks to the being apart from the law, and yet not going on in sin because to serve (be a slave of) God is to obey Him. Romans 3 speaks to being apart from the law through God's grace, and yet not nullifying it because of that grace. So, the OT is definitely applicable today. The idea that we're not under Mosaic law but under the New Covenant is true (Romans 6:14), but what that means is that the only way to salvation is through Christ (John 14:6-7), and that we (as Christians) aren't expected to be perfect (by God's standard) to get to Heaven (Romans 3:23); not that we have no responsibility to obey the Law. What your viewpoint seems like (stepping away from Israel-Hamas), is that the Old Testament no longer applies since Christ came, and a dangerous assumption based on that principle is that we can do anything we want because Christ forgave us. I'm not saying you actually think this way, but this is what taking away from the importance of the Old Testament Law often leads to. Mosaic law is important, it's still God's word, and it still applies to us today. The difference is that unlike the followers of God before Christ came, we can enter God's grace even though we've broken His Law and so enter His grace apart from the Law. On a side note, Abraham was not exempt of the punishment of sin, or the responsibility to act uprightly, even though the Law had not been given to man, but Abraham still served the God who made the Law and punished evil even before Moses lived. So we as Christians are still expected to follow God and honor Him in life. One of the most basic ways to do that is to abstain from the things condemned in God's Word and obey His law (in the grace of Christ, because we fail). The Law defines good and evil, and thus, none of us can be saved by it (ergo, the need for Christ), but a misinterpretation of this principle is that the only thing we as Christians should consider is the New Testament. That is silly and foolish for many reasons. So, rabbit hole aside, the idea that Israel is also in the wrong because the only thing Christians should consider is the New Testament, and Christ said, "turn the other cheek," is false. there's more we have to consider, context to God's written Word that does not only include submissiveness. God is not a passivist (as evidenced throughout His entire Word), and neither should we be.

Okay, not being under the says nothing about being "okay" to sin. Anything not of faith is sin but people seem to failed to understand how to live by faith.

After I was baptized, I tried to be worthy of what Jesus had done by being obedient to the 10 Commandments. The problem was that a deep anxiety fell over me.

I asked what I needed to do and God spoke and said, "I did not ask you to be perfect, Jesus has already done that for you". He then gave me understanding on righteousness.

Righteousness is a state where GOD creates us in his image. Man cannot create himself in God's image so why do so many try. This is the meaning of the Tower of Babylon.

It is not my place to change me, it is my place all my faith in God and allow his Holy Spirit to change me. As the Spirit taught me how to love, doing anything against another became abhorrent. When you love someone, how can you hurt them? Your desire is to help others.

Aiden1 · Jan 21, 2025

Yarddog said:
Okay, not being under the says nothing about being "okay" to sin. Anything not of faith is sin but people seem to failed to understand how to live by faith.

After I was baptized, I tried to be worthy of what Jesus had done by being obedient to the 10 Commandments. The problem was that a deep anxiety fell over me.

I asked what I needed to do and God spoke and said, "I did not ask you to be perfect, Jesus has already done that for you". He then gave me understanding on righteousness.

Righteousness is a state where GOD creates us in his image. Man cannot create himself in God's image so why do so many try. This is the meaning of the Tower of Babylon.

It is not my place to change me, it is my place all my faith in God and allow his Holy Spirit to change me. As the Spirit taught me how to love, doing anything against another became abhorrent. When you love someone, how can you hurt them? Your desire is to help others.

I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think you're right that faith shouldn't become a ritual or this legalistic charade. I can relate to trying to obey to the letter of the law. An obsessive kind of anxiety. When we surrender to Jesus, we should let Him change us, but that change has to direct us toward righteousness. As I seek to follow Jesus in my life, I think naturally I should try to be a better person, knowing full well I'll fail in so many ways. I have to let God in, let Him change me, like you said, but I also have to go after Him with everything I've got. We can't let ourselves get burned out or become complacent, we should strive to obey God's word. When we let pride and rebellion take over, and try to do everything ourselves, your right, Tower of Babel. But we have to try to be better, focusing on Him, and becoming more Christlike. Why though do you think that Israel is not justified? And more importantly what would you have them do? Honestly, I've never heard a stance that neither side should be supported in the war. I find it interesting.

RDKirk · Jan 22, 2025

Aiden1 said:
I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think you're right that faith shouldn't become a ritual or this legalistic charade. I can relate to trying to obey to the letter of the law. An obsessive kind of anxiety. When we surrender to Jesus, we should let Him change us, but that change has to direct us toward righteousness. As I seek to follow Jesus in my life, I think naturally I should try to be a better person, knowing full well I'll fail in so many ways. I have to let God in, let Him change me, like you said, but I also have to go after Him with everything I've got. We can't let ourselves get burned out or become complacent, we should strive to obey God's word. When we let pride and rebellion take over, and try to do everything ourselves, your right, Tower of Babel. But we have to try to be better, focusing on Him, and becoming more Christlike. Why though do you think that Israel is not justified? And more importantly what would you have them do? Honestly, I've never heard a stance that neither side should be supported in the war. I find it interesting.

I stated that Christians should not "support" either side the first day or so this thread opened (or maybe some other similar thread).

There is nothing in scripture requiring or even suggesting that Christians support kings of other nations. What, were Christians in the first century called to decide whether to support kings in Africa or Germanica? And while God will never permit the extermination of Jews as a people, He has--even in scripture--permitted the destruction of Jewish state governments when they have not been in obedience to His laws...

...which the current government has not been.

Aiden1 · Jan 22, 2025

RDKirk said:
I stated that Christians should not "support" either side the first day or so this thread opened (or maybe some other similar thread).

There is nothing in scripture requiring or even suggesting that Christians support kings of other nations. What, were Christians in the first century called to decide whether to support kings in Africa or Germanica? And while God will never permit the extermination of Jews as a people, He has--even in scripture--permitted the destruction of Jewish state governments when they have not been in obedience to His laws...

...which the current government has not been.

I appreciate your point of view that we are not obligated to support, "kings of other nations," I happen to agree. Obviously, Israel is not my country, I take it it's not yours either, but what I disagree with is the idea that we should treat Israel like some other random state of government across the ocean just because you don't think their government is particularly godly. Israel is God's chosen people. From the beginning when God promised to make Abraham's descendants into a great nation in Genesis 12, He told Abraham that He would bless those who bless him, and curse those who curse him. Whether or not you believe that that was referring to Abraham directly or not, we see throughout sematic history that yes, when Israel disobeyed God, He used other nations to conquer, enslave, and oppress Israel, that they might turn back to Him. What happened to the oppressing nations when the Israelites did turn back to God was that He delivered His people and wiped the former out. Christian history revolves around Israel and Israel plays an important role in the End. I'm not saying that you're calling for an extinction of the Jews, but if for no other reason, we as Christians should stand with Israel because God loves them, and they are His nation.

RDKirk · Jan 22, 2025

Aiden1 said:
I appreciate your point of view that we are not obligated to support, "kings of other nations," I happen to agree. Obviously, Israel is not my country, I take it it's not yours either, but what I disagree with is the idea that we should treat Israel like some other random state of government across the ocean just because you don't think their government is particularly godly. Israel is God's chosen people. From the beginning when God promised to make Abraham's descendants into a great nation in Genesis 12, He told Abraham that He would bless those who bless him, and curse those who curse him. Whether or not you believe that that was referring to Abraham directly or not, we see throughout sematic history that yes, when Israel disobeyed God, He used other nations to conquer, enslave, and oppress Israel, that they might turn back to Him. What happened to the oppressing nations when the Israelites did turn back to God was that He delivered His people and wiped the former out. Christian history revolves around Israel and Israel plays an important role in the End. I'm not saying that you're calling for an extinction of the Jews, but if for no other reason, we as Christians should stand with Israel because God loves them, and they are His nation.

As I said:

And while God will never permit the extermination of Jews as a people, He has--even in scripture--permitted the destruction of Jewish state governments when they have not been in obedience to His laws

Michael Snow · Jan 22, 2025

thejoshbro said:
I see that people are either fully support israel or fully support hamas. I think that christians should condemn both, given that both israel and hamas have killed multitudes of civilians.

Yes. I have written these two pieces against the murderous assaults of BOTH.

The Rise of Demonic Spirits

Exhibit A} Diabolical Atrocities The Hamas atrocity of October 7th was not a military operation with military objectives. Sheer terror and blood-lust were its hallmarks. Dr. Nachman noted, for 28 y…

zeitgeistcontext.wordpress.com

Dead Children. Silent American Evangelicals

The Reaction to the Demonic, Savage Attack By HAMAS On October7 “7,797 children and 4,959 women were killed in Gaza as of April 30. Those figures, however, only account for 70% of deaths full…

zeitgeistcontext.wordpress.com

Guardianista · Apr 11, 2026

thejoshbro said:
I see that people are either fully support israel or fully support hamas. I think that christians should condemn both, given that both israel and hamas have killed multitudes of civilians.

Yes, we certainly should. Christians should support the moderate Palestiniian cause, and work towards the replacement of Israel with a single state covvering the whole of Israel and the occupied territoris, a secular liberal democracy with equal rights for all, regardless of race, creed or culture - what we take for granted in the West, in other words.

timewerx · Apr 13, 2026

Postvieww said:
There are righteous wars, and sometimes innocents are killed in the process. It is not the Israelies hiding behind women and children.

Israelites are the ones shooting through women and children to kill Hamas hiding behind women and children.

Pretty sure some accommodation can be reached instead of acting like cold, mindless zombies by both sides.

Oompa Loompa · Apr 13, 2026

thejoshbro said:
I see that people are either fully support israel or fully support hamas. I think that christians should condemn both, given that both israel and hamas have killed multitudes of civilians.

The difference is that one side deliberately attacks civilians while simultaneously uses civilians as human shields. Hamas, a proximity of Iran, blatantly demonstrated this. The video below illustrates.

So, pick your poison. Meaning that using civilians as cannon fodder is the propaganda game play. That is their leverage, because they know they cannot win a war with Isreal or the US through combat, so they win wars through the media propaganda to pin the American populace against themselves. Something that I respectfully believe you are demonstrating. Iran and their proxies are acting like cockroaches, because of their ideology, they believe that if only they win is to survive. The only thing that will bring Iran, Hamas, Hezbulah, or the Huthis to the negotiation table is a threat of full destruction.

Postvieww · Apr 14, 2026

timewerx said:
Israelites are the ones shooting through women and children to kill Hamas hiding behind women and children.

Pretty sure some accommodation can be reached instead of acting like cold, mindless zombies by both sides.

So your response for the following Hamas attack outlined would be what????? On October 7, 2023, Hamas launched a surprise, multi-pronged attack ("Operation Al-Aqsa Flood") on southern Israel, firing thousands of rockets, breaching the border, and attacking towns and a music festival, resulting in roughly 1,200 deaths and 240+ hostages. I don’t need to in detail describe some of the evil atrocities Hamas committed.

Hawkins · Apr 20, 2026

First as a rule of thumb, wars belong to Caesars, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Second, to Israel it's a curse if you would understand the nature of what the conflict is. Since I see it as a curse I'd rather leave it between God and His chosen people.

The nature of the conflict;

Moderate nationalism (and patriotism) is required to protect a nation. Without such a nationalism a nation (Caesar in nature) would be easily wiped out by its neighbors (other Caesars in a sense). The nationalism of an old ethnicity has something additional which is the legacy of lands belonging to an ethnicity. Nationalism has a much close tie to lands upon which nationalism/patriotism is to be built. If there are two separate sets of nationalism (of ethnicity legacy) built upon the same piece of land, it's a curse.

The nature of nationalism is basically the notion by a group of humans that, "these lands belong to us, whoever come with hostility will need to driven out of our lands completely". Without this notion your nation is vulnerable to be destroyed by others (nations, or Caesars or beasts described in the Bible). With this notion in place but duplicated in a single piece of land, it becomes a curse and a fight of death or life.

In the ethnical concept of the Jews, Palestine belongs to Israel. That's the way how nationalism was built upon. After the six-day war however, the defeated middle east nations (Caesars or beasts) have built another set of nationalism onto the minds of the Palestinians, that is, Palestine belongs to Palestinians. You may need to pay attention on how the school teachers from the middle east nations educated Palestinians since childhood on this nationalism conceptually.

That is, to Israel;
"these lands belong to us, whoever come with hostility need to driven out of our lands completely"

To Palestinians, the same;
"these lands belong to us, whoever come with hostility need to driven out of our lands completely"

It's a curse and endless wars are expected till one side is "driven out of the lands". It's very possible that a conflict of this kind will last endlessly through generations (actually it has started generations ago since the six-day war), and it's death or life to both sides.

If such a curse is "allowed" to occur, I'd rather leave it between our Lord and His chosen people without any judgment made.

RDKirk · Apr 20, 2026

Hawkins said:
First as a rule of thumb, wars belong to Caesars, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Second, to Israel it's a curse if you would understand the nature of what the conflict is. Since I see it as a curse I'd rather leave it between God and His chosen people.

The nature of the conflict;

Moderate nationalism (and patriotism) is required to protect a nation. Without such a nationalism a nation (Caesar in nature) would be easily wiped out by its neighbors (other Caesars in a sense). The nationalism of an old ethnicity has something additional which is the legacy of lands belonging to an ethnicity. Nationalism has a much close tie to lands upon which nationalism/patriotism is to be built. If there are two separate sets of nationalism (of ethnicity legacy) built upon the same piece of land, it's a curse.

The nature of nationalism is basically the notion by a group of humans that, "these lands belong to us, whoever come with hostility will need to driven out of our lands completely". Without this notion your nation is vulnerable to be destroyed by others (nations, or Caesars or beasts described in the Bible). With this notion in place but duplicated in a single piece of land, it becomes a curse and a fight of death or life.

In the ethnical concept of the Jews, Palestine belongs to Israel. That's the way how nationalism was built upon. After the six-day war however, the defeated middle east nations (Caesars or beasts) have built another set of nationalism onto the minds of the Palestinians, that is, Palestine belongs to Palestinians. You may need to pay attention on how the school teachers from the middle east nations educated Palestinians since childhood on this nationalism conceptually.

That is, to Israel;
"these lands belong to us, whoever come with hostility need to driven out of our lands completely"

To Palestinians, the same;
"these lands belong to us, whoever come with hostility need to driven out of our lands completely"

It's a curse and endless wars are expected till one side is "driven out of the lands". It's very possible that a conflict of this kind will last endlessly through generations (actually it has started generations ago since the six-day war), and it's death or life to both sides.

During the second Palestinian intifada back in the late 80s, ABC news anchor Ted Koppel had a nightly news show called "Nightline." For one show, he set up a short wall across the studio. On one side of the wall he had gathered prominent Israeli spokespeople, and on the other side he had brought in prominent Palestinian spokespeople.

The intent was to have a frank and civil conversation about how the confrontation got started and what could be done to end it.

Notably, within five minutes the television debate had actually gone all the way back to Isaac and Ishmael.

Hawkins said:
If such a curse is "allowed" to occur, I'd rather leave it between our Lord and His chosen people without any judgment made.

The US is certainly not going to resolve it with our Johnny-come-lately selves.

Christians should condemn both Israel and Hamas.

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