Earthly immortality

mindlight · Apr 7, 2026

Man was made to live for ever. The key to immortality lies in God who is the source of all life. Both Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven and never died. Elijah was able to visit on the Mount of Transfiguration. At the second coming a whole host of believers will also be transformed to live forever with glorious bodies without having to die and be resurrected. So we know that the metamorphosis that occurs with the resurrection from the dead can also occur without it. God has planned a time for most of us shortly before Judgment Day but clearly he has allowed exceptions to this rule.

So my question is this- are there people walking among us or interacting with us who have already been glorified. Immortals on a Divine mission. So for example a view of the two witnesses that allows for the idea that they are actual physical witnesses to the story of the church because they live with that church through the Millennia, moving from place to place.

These people would no doubt be utterly anonymous as otherwise their presence might distract, but the possibility exists - does it not?

d taylor · Apr 7, 2026

mindlight said:
Man was made to live for ever. The key to immortality lies in God who is the source of all life. Both Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven and never died. Elijah was able to visit on the Mount of Transfiguration. At the second coming a whole host of believers will also be transformed to live forever with glorious bodies without having to die and be resurrected. So we know that the metamorphosis that occurs with the resurrection from the dead can also occur without it. God has planned a time for most of us shortly before Judgment Day but clearly he has allowed exceptions to this rule.

So my question is this- are there people walking among us or interacting with us who have already been glorified. Immortals on a Divine mission. So for example a view of the two witnesses that allows for the idea that they are actual physical witnesses to the story of the church because they live with that church through the Millennia, moving from place to place.

These people would no doubt be utterly anonymous as otherwise their presence might distract, but the possibility exists - does it not?

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Enoch was never stated as being taken to heaven The Bible just states God took him he was not.

And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Elijah was just taken up into the sky and to another location on earth, he did not die or was taken away by God

Where did Elijah go? - Right Reason

Maria Billingsley · Apr 7, 2026

mindlight said:
So my question is this- are there people walking among us or interacting with us who have already been glorified.

Absolutely not. There is one glaring problem with your interpretation, we are still on the " old" earth. Scripture specifically revealed a " new heavens and earth".

* Isaiah 65:17 – For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
* Isaiah 66:22 – For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me, says the Lord, so shall your descendants and your name remain.
* 2 Peter 3:13 – Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
* Revelation 21:1 – Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

mindlight · Apr 7, 2026

Maria Billingsley said:
Absolutely not. There is one glaring problem with your interpretation, we are still on the " old" earth. Scripture specifically revealed a " new heavens and earth".

* Isaiah 65:17 – For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
* Isaiah 66:22 – For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me, says the Lord, so shall your descendants and your name remain.
* 2 Peter 3:13 – Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
* Revelation 21:1 – Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

Then how do you explain Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. They did not come down to the New heavens the New Earth.

Hentenza · Apr 7, 2026

mindlight said:
Then how do you explain Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. They did not come down to the New heavens the New Earth.

They came down from heaven. They are not ghosts roaming the earth.

mindlight · Apr 7, 2026

d taylor said:
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Enoch was never stated as being taken to heaven The Bible just states God took him he was not.

And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Elijah was just taken up into the sky and to another location on earth, he did not die or was taken away by God

Where did Elijah go? - Right Reason

There are some strong traditions, not least the extra biblical book of Enoch which help us interpret the bible phrases.

Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. ( in LXX translates not found) - Genesis 5:24

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for before he was taken up, he was attested to have been pleasing to God. - Hebrews 11:5

The verse relating to Elijah is also clear:

And as they were walking along and talking, behold, a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and they separated the two of them. Then Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

The mainstream global historical Christian view is not that controversial - all denominations agree on this. But even Aquinas's original suggestion of an alternate location/intermediary place would still fit the thesis presented in the OP, Elijah came down from heaven or that intermediate place and was physically on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus centuries after being taken up. So he is not dead or in the tomb and is able to be among us.

mindlight · Apr 7, 2026

Hentenza said:
They came down from heaven. They are not ghosts roaming the earth.

Not ghosts no - Jude describe a conflict between the devil and the Archangel Michael over his BODY. The assumption into heaven also includes a full body. But Moses was assumed into heaven having been separately raised while Elijah never died. Both were physically on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Maria Billingsley · Apr 7, 2026

mindlight said:
Then how do you explain Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. They did not come down to the New heavens the New Earth.

Scriptue describes them as appearing "in glory," which leads us to believe that it was a supernatural state rather than in the flesh. Their presence was a miraculous manifestation of their spirits made visible to Peter, James, and John.

Hentenza · Apr 7, 2026

mindlight said:
Not ghosts no - Jude describe a conflict between the devil and the Archangel Michael over his BODY. The assumption into heaven also includes a full body. But Moses was assumed into heaven having been separately raised while Elijah never died. Both were physically on the Mount of Transfiguration.

The prevailing theory is that both have physical, glorified bodies in heaven. Moses and Elijah, appearing together at the transfiguration, represent Jesus fulfillment of both the law and the prophets.

Proximus · Apr 7, 2026

mindlight said:
These people would no doubt be utterly anonymous as otherwise their presence might distract, but the possibility exists - does it not?

If you come into the affection of truth for the sake of truth and the good of others — that is, apart from the considerations of your friendships, loyalties, traditions, love of self, and love of the world — then you yourself may become a spiritually regenerated man.

d taylor · Apr 7, 2026

mindlight said:
There are some strong traditions, not least the extra biblical book of Enoch which help us interpret the bible phrases.

Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. ( in LXX translates not found) - Genesis 5:24

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for before he was taken up, he was attested to have been pleasing to God. - Hebrews 11:5

The verse relating to Elijah is also clear:

And as they were walking along and talking, behold, a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and they separated the two of them. Then Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

The mainstream global historical Christian view is not that controversial - all denominations agree on this. But even Aquinas's original suggestion of an alternate location/intermediary place would still fit the thesis presented in the OP, Elijah came down from heaven or that intermediate place and was physically on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus centuries after being taken up. So he is not dead or in the tomb and is able to be among us.

-

Not all English translation use up. That is right Elijah was taken up into to heaven which is the sky.

There are three heavens 1. the visible sky 2. the heaven above the raqia and 3. the 3rd heaven where Jesus came from.

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Hentenza · Apr 7, 2026

d taylor said:
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Not all English translation use up. That is right Elijah was taken up into to heaven which is the sky.

lol your flat earth belief is showing. Nowhere in scripture does it say that heaven is the sky.

Hawkins · Apr 8, 2026

No one is supposed to be immortal on Earth. Transfiguration itself implies that the image is a spiritual one, not a physical one. A "new body" (if immortal at all) will only be given after the Judgment. Both Moses and Elijah were taken to the Third Heaven (Abraham's Bosom). Moses is without a body, nor is Elijah (it's no point for a spiritual Moses live with a bodily Elijah).

On the other hand, death is a known process which all shall experience except for a few such as Enoch and Elijah. It however has nothing to do with human state in the Third Heaven. The souls of Enoch and Elijah were brought there (so were that of Moses and Samuel) but without a body. That's why a transfiguration but not the bodily form was seen.

mindlight · Apr 11, 2026

Maria Billingsley said:
Scriptue describes them as appearing "in glory," which leads us to believe that it was a supernatural state rather than in the flesh. Their presence was a miraculous manifestation of their spirits made visible to Peter, James, and John.

That is a sort of superspiritual asceticism. It would require Elijah be separated from his physical body in order to attend the meeting. Since the glorified Christ walked among us why not Elijah or Moses also?

mindlight · Apr 11, 2026

Hentenza said:
The prevailing theory is that both have physical, glorified bodies in heaven. Moses and Elijah, appearing together at the transfiguration, represent Jesus fulfillment of both the law and the prophets.

They appeared on earth and came from heaven is what the bible said. Peter James and John all witnessed the physical presence on a physical mountain.

mindlight · Apr 11, 2026

Hawkins said:
No one is supposed to be immortal on Earth. Transfiguration itself implies that the image is a spiritual one, not a physical one. A "new body" (if immortal at all) will only be given after the Judgment. Both Moses and Elijah were taken to the Third Heaven (Abraham's Bosom). Moses is without a body, nor is Elijah (it's no point for a spiritual Moses live with a bodily Elijah).

On the other hand, death is a known process which all shall experience except for a few such as Enoch and Elijah. It however has nothing to do with human state in the Third Heaven. The souls of Enoch and Elijah were brought there (so were that of Moses and Samuel) but without a body. That's why a transfiguration but not the bodily form was seen.

If Christs body can sit on the throne of God which it can, then the existence of individuals like Moses, Elijah or Enoch with physical bodies in heaven is also feasible.

The heresy here is a kind of gnostic preference for the spiritual over the physical (not flesh in the tainted sense), in Christology Apollinarianism comes closest I suppose - it is a denial of the full humanity of these three men.

Maria Billingsley · Apr 11, 2026

mindlight said:
That is a sort of superspiritual asceticism. It would require Elijah be separated from his physical body in order to attend the meeting. Since the glorified Christ walked among us why not Elijah or Moses also?

Why?

Because Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the "firstfruits". The permanent, incorruptible resurrection of the saints could not have legally or biblically preceded His death and resurrection. At the Transfiguration, Jesus had not yet died, risen, or ascended. Therefore, Moses and Elijah appearing in resurrected bodies would contradict the "firstfruits" status of Christ.
Maybe rather than being in a " glorified state" the apostles were witnessing a visionary manifestation. Ultimately, neither of us really know for sure.

Thanks for sharing.
Be blessed.

mindlight · Apr 11, 2026

Maria Billingsley said:
Why?

Because Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the "firstfruits". The permanent, incorruptible resurrection of the saints could not have legally or biblically preceded His death and resurrection. At the Transfiguration, Jesus had not yet died, risen, or ascended. Therefore, Moses and Elijah appearing in resurrected bodies would contradict the "firstfruits" status of Christ.
Maybe rather than being in a " glorified state" the apostles were witnessing a visionary manifestation. Ultimately, neither of us really know for sure.

Thanks for sharing.
Be blessed.

If you believe that Moses and Abraham were saved then you need an explanation of how they can endure the presence of God even though both sinful men who predated the cross.

Also how could Elijah and Enoch be transformed into heavenly citizens pre cross and pre resurrection? We know they were.

In the cross the Trinitarian nature of the crucified God is revealed, His self sacrificial love is however an eternal feature not something new. What is accomplished on the cross is a substitutionary sacrifice for sins God always knew He was going to have to pay for. So the same metamorphosis of our physical form that will occur at the resurrection or return has already occurred with Enoch, Elijah and Moses and I believe does not have to wait for the Second Coming if God so decides on a specific mission for individuals

Maria Billingsley · Apr 12, 2026

mindlight said:
If you believe that Moses and Abraham were saved then you need an explanation of how they can endure the presence of God even though both sinful men who predated the cross.

Also how could Elijah and Enoch be transformed into heavenly citizens pre cross and pre resurrection? We know they were.

In the cross the Trinitarian nature of the crucified God is revealed, His self sacrificial love is however an eternal feature not something new. What is accomplished on the cross is a substitutionary sacrifice for sins God always knew He was going to have to pay for. So the same metamorphosis of our physical form that will occur at the resurrection or return has already occurred with Enoch, Elijah and Moses and I believe does not have to wait for the Second Coming if God so decides on a specific mission for individuals

Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, signaling that Jesus Christ of Nazareth fulfilled the entire Old Testament. Their presence confirmed Jesus’ divine authority and prepared the disciples for His upcoming suffering and glory. Their presence, for centuries, has always been understood as a visionary preview or temporary manifestation, (possibly the two witnesses). Scripture explicitly identifies Jesus Christ of Nazareth as the "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" in 1 Corinthians 15:20, establishing Him as the very first to receive a resurrected, glorified body. If others had been resurrected and glorified prior to the crucifixion, it would contradict the biblical timeline where Christ holds the preeminence as the first to conquer death permanently.
I can not be moved from this position because your position negates the biblical promise that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20). Asserting that others received glorified bodies before the resurrection of the dead at Christ's coming contradicts the very scriptural order of the resurrection.

Thanks for sharing.
Be blessed.

mindlight · Apr 12, 2026

Maria Billingsley said:
Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, signaling that Jesus Christ of Nazareth fulfilled the entire Old Testament. Their presence confirmed Jesus’ divine authority and prepared the disciples for His upcoming suffering and glory. Their presence, for centuries, has always been understood as a visionary preview or temporary manifestation, (possibly the two witnesses). Scripture explicitly identifies Jesus Christ of Nazareth as the "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" in 1 Corinthians 15:20, establishing Him as the very first to receive a resurrected, glorified body. If others had been resurrected and glorified prior to the crucifixion, it would contradict the biblical timeline where Christ holds the preeminence as the first to conquer death permanently.
I can not be moved from this position because your position negates the biblical promise that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20). Asserting that others received glorified bodies before the resurrection of the dead at Christ's coming contradicts the very scriptural order of the resurrection.

Thanks for sharing.
Be blessed.

We agree that we are saved by Christ and that He is the first fruits of resurrection and so I need to revise how I have stated this.

Abraham and Moses were both saved by faith retroactively. Rom 3:25, Rom 4. Their faith means they could be recipients of the same salvation we receive now

A glorified resurrected body has a different kind of resilience to the one that Moses, Elijah and Enoch appear to have had. So you can only get a glorified resurrected body after the resurrection of Jesus. But you can be an non mortal before that. Enoch and Elijah have this kind of existence and maybe Moses also. Some traditions also add Mary of course.

On the Mount of Transfiguration Moses and Elijah appear as a supernatural vision which may or may not include a body (the traditional view is not but not universally). Jesus says this in Matthew 17:9 which uses the Greek word horama. If there were no body where was it during the encounter and why was it necessary to separate it?

So the thesis proposed in the OP remains in tact. It is possible to be physically immortal on earth before the second coming and main resurrection. There may therefore be people walking among us who are so and the bible may give an example in the case of the two witnesses. Actually this becomes more possible now that we know such people may have an intermediary form of ability to resist mortality rather than being current recipients of final glorified resurrection bodies that would be incompatible with the corruption and brokenness in the world as it is.

Earthly immortality

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