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Birthright citizenship

ThatRobGuy

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Trump is going to loose this one. The 14th amendment is quite clear.
So is the 1st amendment and 2nd amendment.

Are you sure you want to go with a strict textualist approach to interpreting the constitution?
 
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BasedLutheran

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It's been a hot topic for a few years now, with one political faction saying "the language is clear, anyone born on US soil is a US citizen", and another faction saying that's not the case.

While courts leverage interpretation for such matters, I think it's worth considering other statements from principle authors of that amendment in figuring out context and intent

View attachment 378166

I'll keep digging to see if I can find a more "clear to read version" for folks.

Senator Howard was a leading author of that amendment (and sorry if this is hard to read, this is the best I can get the resolution...the Library of Congress version isn't any easier to read unfortunately)

But his statements seem to indicate that the intent was centered around granting birthright citizenship to the children of freed former slaves (which makes sense, he was one of the top reconstructionists from the north at that time), but he mentioned excluding American Indians. (they didn't acquire official citizenship until the 1920's via a separate act of congress)

He argued that Native Americans, while born within the geographical limits of the United States, were "not fully subject to the jurisdiction thereof" in the way the amendment intended, because they owed allegiance to their tribes rather than directly to the United States government.


I think that calls into question the status quo bias of the notion that "14A guarantees that anyone born on US soil is automatically a citizen".

People say "the text is clear, broad birthright citizenship was the intent", but the words of one of the leading authors calls that into question.

If he suggested that it doesn't apply to Native Americans (who would've obviously had a much stronger claim to birthright citizenship than a person who snuck in post hoc, and had a baby while they were here), I think that calls in question the assumed premise that birthright citizenship broadly applies based on "the intent of the amendment"
Yep, it's pretty clear it wasn't intended for what the left has been using it for.
 
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Hentenza

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So is the 1st amendment and 2nd amendment.

Are you sure you want to go with a strict textualist approach to interpreting the constitution?
It says what it says. I believe in originalism and textualism but not in the strict sense. In order for Trump to win the amendment would have to be textually changed which is extremely hard to do particularly in this political climate where we don’t have a working government.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Yep, it's pretty clear it wasn't intended for what the left has been using it for.

Obviously not...

And I'm saying this a person who's not a strict textualist or originalist.

When people on the left suggest "The founders couldn't have ever imagined how sophisticated weapons could get...any random person being able to get an AR-15 is going to lead to problems", I agree with them on that.

When they propose certain environmental protection measures that say "no, you can't just dump your waste in a river and say the free market will sort it out", I agree with them.

So I'm not sure why some are defaulting to the same sort of rationale that Ted Nugent uses to defend the policy prescriptions of the NRA.
 
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Hans Blaster

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My position is more in-line with that of a hybrid between the "living document" and purposivism interpretation style.

Let's look through the lens of current circumstances, as well as taking into account the goal they were trying to accomplish when writing it when making considerations.
I wasn't asking about your position on Constitutional interpretation. I don't care about that.

I asked about your position on the birthright citizenship issue.
Pretend I was making a provision, ***disclaimer - I got stuck working all day and I'm tired so apologies if this isn't as intricate as my other famous analogies that I know you love so much ;) ***

Ex:
I'm living in a time there's a major issue with authorities across the country (corruptly) using waste disposal laws to punish people/entities they don't like, "ah, you didn't separate your trash properly, that's a $10,000 fine"

If my solution to address that problem was passing something with the text "government shall not place financial burdens on individuals on the basis of improper refuse disposal"

It'd be silly for someone 75 years from now to use a strict textualist read on what I said to try to make a case that "My company can dump toxic sludge in the river upstream of the town water supply, and you can't touch me...look at what Rob said, the text is very clear"
When a law is written that vaguely, then it would do exactly what you think is silly. That's probably why trash disposal ordinances have upper limits on fines instead and most sentencing gives discretion to judges to ... make judgements. (Odd that.)
 
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Tuur

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People say "the text is clear, broad birthright citizenship was the intent", but the words of one of the leading authors calls that into question.
This is the first sentence of the 14th Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Regardless of the intent, that is the part of the amendment in question. Note that it does not restrict citizenship to freed slaves.

Indians had already been addressed all the way back with the Three Fifths Compromise. Note that "Indians not taxed" are excluded from the count. In other words, if they weren't being taxed, they weren't considered being under US jurisdiction. Note that the State of Georgia several times tried to cut their own treaties with Indians, only to get slapped down because the US Constitution forbids states making their own treaties with foreign powers. So, in the case of Georgia. even though the Creek and Cherokee lived within state boundaries, land not ceded remained their domain. It was essentially separate nations residing within the state. Hazy memory: I think the Treaty of Washington of 1805 may have required US citizens traveling through Creek territory within Georgia to obtain what was essentially a passport at Fort Hawkins on the east side of the Ocmulgee in present day Macon, Georgia. Since the Cherokee and Creek were separate nations, their populations weren't counted during the US Census.

OTOH, some Creeks and maybe some Cherokee lived on land already ceded to the US, and were citizens. They weren't that numerous, but they weren't removed when their nations went to what's now called Oklahoma. They were subject to taxation and were counted in the census.

The only real question is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." If illegals pay taxes, it might be argued that they are subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

My guess is that the USSC will come down in favor of birthright citizenship, all based on the wording of the 14th Amendment,.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It says what it says. I believe in originalism and textualism but not in the strict sense.
That's an oxymoron... textualism by it's very nature requires strictness.

It'd be like saying "I believe in total alcohol prohibition, but not in a way that would prevent someone from having a few glasses of wine with dinner"
In order for Trump to win the amendment would have to be textually changed which is extremely hard to do particularly in this political climate where we don’t have a working government.
What is the precedent for that sentiment?

By that standard, in order for government (at any level) to pass any rules/laws/ordinances pertaining to misinformation or hate speech, they'd have to pass something that textually changed the first amendment.
 
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RDKirk

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It says what it says. I believe in originalism and textualism but not in the strict sense. In order for Trump to win the amendment would have to be textually changed which is extremely hard to do particularly in this political climate where we don’t have a working government.
That seems to have been a point made in the oral arguments.

This court supposedly does lean toward originalism and textualism, but to do what Trump wants it to do, one must pull in extra-Constitutional resources...which is not originalism and textualism.

Strict textualism should make this a fairly easy case for birthright citizenship. The limiting work has to be done by extra-textual arguments about what "jurisdiction" should mean in a modern immigration context, which is exactly the kind of move originalists criticize the left for making with other amendments. May as well revisit Roe v. Wade.

Whether the court's conservative bloc applies its stated interpretive philosophy consistently here, or reaches a preferred political outcome through different reasoning, will be a telling test of how principled their methodology actually is in practice.
 
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Hentenza

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That's an oxymoron... textualism by it's very nature requires strictness.

It'd be like saying "I believe in total alcohol prohibition, but not in a way that would prevent someone from having a few glasses of wine with dinner"
Not really. You are confusing textualism with strict constructionism. Textualism focuses on the objective, ordinary meaning of a text and its context, it permits a reasonable
interpretation rather than a narrow, rigid reading.
What is the precedent for that sentiment?

By that standard, in order for government (at any level) to pass any rules/laws/ordinances pertaining to misinformation or hate speech, they'd have to pass something that textually changed the first amendment.
That’s not true. SCOTUS has always ruled on interpretation but in this case interpretation is not what is at stake but the very words of the amendment. I think they are going to rule against him.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I wasn't asking about your position on Constitutional interpretation. I don't care about that.

I asked about your position on the birthright citizenship issue.

My position would be that the 14th amendment shouldn't cover unrestricted birthright citizenship, and if the authors knew then what we know now, they would have been more specific in their framing.

It made perfect sense that former slaves (and their children) - who were ripped from their ancestral homelands and brought here against their will - should be granted citizenship after the nation they're now living in (through no choice of their own) after slavery was abolished. -- especially in the face of entities in the US (local government and courts) that were sucking sour grapes about it and trying to still oppress them in extraordinary ways.

That's very different that leaving something so wide open that it allows for birth tourism.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Yep, it's pretty clear it wasn't intended for what the left has been using it for.

Obviously not...

And I'm saying this a person who's not a strict textualist or originalist.

When people on the left suggest "The founders couldn't have ever imagined how sophisticated weapons could get...any random person being able to get an AR-15 is going to lead to problems", I agree with them on that.

When they propose certain environmental protection measures that say "no, you can't just dump your waste in a river and say the free market will sort it out", I agree with them.

So I'm not sure why the script has been flipped
 
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Hans Blaster

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Correct, which is why I referred to it as a partial modification.
It is not a modification of an amendment at all. There was no prior amendment on the election of Senators to modify.
That's a distinction without a difference. Saying "the right of citizens 18 years old older can't be denied" is, in a practical sense, setting the voting age to 18.
There is a difference and that you don't see it is odd since I know you had to work through at least some basic logic to get your degree.

The 26th Amendment reads:

"The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age."

It only prevents age restrictions on persons 18 or older, it does not put restrictions on those under 18.

That is not the same as stating that the minimum age for voting is 18.




But why skip the rest?
Because your legal analysis is bad and I am weary of your "examples".
Normally when you do the "I'm going to ignore this other part" (which typically happens to be the part that's hardest for the progressive position to argue against) routine I let it pass, but in this instance it's very pertinent.

If people read the 10th amendment with the same amount of textual strictness as they want 14th read with for this specific purpose, that means the EPA is gone, right?

The constitution doesn't delegate the power of environmental regulation to the the federal government, so that should be left up to the states by that logic, correct? Or do modern problems require modern solutions?
Congress had general legislative powers "promote the General Welfare" and "regulate Commerce between the States".
 
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BasedLutheran

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Obviously not...

And I'm saying this a person who's not a strict textualist or originalist.

When people on the left suggest "The founders couldn't have ever imagined how sophisticated weapons could get...any random person being able to get an AR-15 is going to lead to problems", I agree with them on that.

When they propose certain environmental protection measures that say "no, you can't just dump your waste in a river and say the free market will sort it out", I agree with them.

So I'm not sure why some are defaulting to the same sort of rationale that Ted Nugent uses to defend the policy prescriptions of the NRA.
Well, the bolded just reveals your ignorance. They had rapid-fire guns, including early machine guns, at the time of the writing of the Second Amendment. And owning literal cannons was part of the amendment. So no, they very much could have imagined how sophisticated weapons could get. Because they were already becoming that sophisticated.
Meanwhile, the actual amendment in question, they were similarly very clear that they knew how it could be used and were very specific in what their words meant to ensure it wouldn't be used that way.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Not really. You are confusing textualism with strict constructionism. Textualism focuses on the objective, ordinary meaning of a text and its context, it permits a reasonable
interpretation rather than a narrow, rigid reading.

Textualism is the theory that we should interpret legal texts, including the Constitution, based on the text’s ordinary meaning. A textualist ignores factors outside the text, such as the problem the law is addressing or what the law’s drafters may have intended.

Textualism does not focus on the problem it was aimed at addressing, that would be purposivism - which is a different constitutional school of thought that I noted earlier.
That’s not true. SCOTUS has always ruled on interpretation but in this case interpretation is not what is at stake but the very words of the amendment. I think they are going to rule against him.
But the very words of several amendments get neutered based on several other rulings across a wide variety of topics. Pure textualism has never been a basis for modern constitutional interpretation. If it was, then literally any legal challenge to any gun control law or speech restriction measure or any government agency that runs afoul of the 10th amendment (which is most of them) would be a no brainer.
 
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RDKirk

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Well, the bolded just reveals your ignorance. They had rapid-fire guns, including early machine guns, at the time of the writing of the Second Amendment. And owning literal cannons was part of the amendment. So no, they very much could have imagined how sophisticated weapons could get. Because they were already becoming that sophisticated.
Meanwhile, the actual amendment in question, they were similarly very clear that they knew how it could be used and were very specific in what their words meant to ensure it wouldn't be used that way.
Yes, the most fearsome weapon of the day was the gunship, and many of them were privately owned.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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There is a difference and that you don't see it is odd since I know you had to work through at least some basic logic to get your degree.

The 26th Amendment reads:

"The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age."

It only prevents age restrictions on persons 18 or older, it does not put restrictions on those under 18.

That is not the same as stating that the minimum age for voting is 18.
How many states currently have a voting age lower than 18 for federal elections?

If the answer is 0, then why not?

Seems as if certain states could make sure the blue team wins every time if they just lowered that age to 15 or 16, what's stopping them from doing it? Feels like if they could have done it, they would have by now, what's stopping them?
Congress had general legislative powers "promote the General Welfare" and "regulate Commerce between the States".
Seems like a broad "catch-all" that definitely wouldn't fit with a strict textualist reading of the constitution.

Since most things can be commoditized and sold across state lines, does that mean the federal government gets to control everything?

Meaning, according to the constitution, since environmental protection and drug policy isn't something that was delegated to the federal government, a strict textualist meaning would be "it's none of the fed's business, stay out of it", but if someone is going with the reading of "since cars pollute, and cars can be sold across state lines, that now means that the feds can intervene in environmental matters" that seems out of bounds.

And "promote the general welfare" is an even worse catch all. As it's subjective, and could literally be used to apply to anything an "in-power administration" wants to do based on their own vision of what "general welfare" means.

By that standard, a republican led congress could simply say "having to spend even one cent that provides services to undocumented people imposes on the general welfare of US citizens, therefore, we have the right to deport everyone here illegally tomorrow"
 
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Hentenza

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Textualism is the theory that we should interpret legal texts, including the Constitution, based on the text’s ordinary meaning. A textualist ignores factors outside the text, such as the problem the law is addressing or what the law’s drafters may have intended.

Textualism does not focus on the problem it was aimed at addressing, that would be purposivism - which is a different constitutional school of thought that I noted earlier.

But the very words of several amendments get neutered based on several other rulings across a wide variety of topics. Pure textualism has never been a basis for modern constitutional interpretation. If it was, then literally any legal challenge to any gun control law or speech restriction measure or any government agency that runs afoul of the 10th amendment (which is most of them) would be a no brainer.
I’m in agreement with Justice Scalia.

Justice Antonin Scalia, who was both a textualist and an originalist, criticized this sort of strict constructionist approach to textualism. He wrote that a text should not be construed strictly, and it should not be construed leniently; it should be construed reasonably, to contain all that it fairly means. Scalia, A Matter of Interpretation, supra note 1, at 23.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Well, the bolded just reveals your ignorance. They had rapid-fire guns, including early machine guns, at the time of the writing of the Second Amendment. And owning literal cannons was part of the amendment. So no, they very much could have imagined how sophisticated weapons could get. Because they were already becoming that sophisticated.
Meanwhile, the actual amendment in question, they were similarly very clear that they knew how it could be used and were very specific in what their words meant to ensure it wouldn't be used that way.
Were those rapid fire guns easily accessible or affordable to common guy on the streets?

I'll strongly disagree with your assertion that they could have imagined what the common weapons of today could do. They would have thought an airplane was witchcraft.

Me and 15 of my friends with our AR-15's and vests you an buy at an army surplus store could have put a hurting on a revolutionary war squad of 200 people.

The reality of the situation:
  • These weapons were slow to reload (except the Girandoni), mechanically unreliable, very expensive, and rare.
  • The AR-15 fires ~45 rounds per minute in semi-auto with quick magazine swaps — far beyond anything common in 1791.
  • Standard firearms of the era were single-shot flintlocks requiring 15–30 seconds to reload.

So the Founders were aware that repeating firearms could exist, but the average gun of the day was nowhere near modern semi-automatic capability.

If I had a time machine, my Glock would have made them think I was some sort of wizard.
 
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Hans Blaster

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My position would be that the 14th amendment shouldn't cover unrestricted birthright citizenship, and if the authors knew then what we know now, they would have been more specific in their framing.
I suspected you were on the wrong side, but I couldn't tell.
It made perfect sense that former slaves (and their children) - who were ripped from their ancestral homelands and brought here against their will - should be granted citizenship after the nation they're now living in (through no choice of their own) after slavery was abolished. -- especially in the face of entities in the US (local government and courts) that were sucking sour grapes about it and trying to still oppress them in extraordinary ways.
The US always had birthright citizenship in common law. What changed with Dred Scot was that the court declared that races could be excluded from citizenship. A "no race restriction" clause was needed. Black descendants of slaves weren't the only racial group some would wish to exclude: Chinese, Indians, probably Mexicans were potentially excluded. Congress knew that the race clause with open birthright citizenship to all of those except Indians as they had unique legal relations to the US government. They included it anyway.

There is actually a mention of birthright citizenship in the original Constitution. Birthright citizenship is required to be elected President (or VP). If there are no "natural born citizens" how can anyone be eligible to be President?
That's very different that leaving something so wide open that it allows for birth tourism.
A very minor concern, but even in 1868 one could travel from nearby parts of Canada to give birth. It also only took about 10 days to cross the Atlantic at that time on a steamship.
 
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MarkSB

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Well, the bolded just reveals your ignorance.

Yah.... your ignorance!!

leslie-jordan-leslie.gif
 
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