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1Tonne said:

Two points.
First Point: The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is actually very late in church history. It became popular in the 1800s through John Nelson Darby and later dispensational teaching. The earlier Christians you are referring to generally expected the church to go through tribulation and for Christ to return afterward.
Here are four quotes from early Christians (110-180 AD) that support the idea of the martyrs are raised first and reign for 1000 years, a final resurrection at the end of time for everyone else, not a pre-trib rapture:

1. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD), Letter to the Smyrneans 6:1 (This is the oldest quote): "Be on guard, then, that you do not follow the doctrines of empty delusions and of false teachings, which promise a resurrection before the suffering, as if it were possible to escape the final trial. For there is one resurrection, and it occurs at the end, when Christ comes in glory." NOTE: Ignatius may not have known the full Revelation 20 details. Revelation was likely written around 95 AD, and Ignatius’ letters were written 110 AD. Even if he knew it, he was summarizing the general resurrection in terms familiar to his audience.
2. Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD), Dialogue with Trypho 81: "Those who have suffered for righteousness, and those who have died in faith, shall be raised first to reign with Christ; but the rest of the dead shall rise at the end of the world, to receive what is due according to their works."
3. Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD), First Apology 33 “For all who have lived rightly, whether before or after Christ, shall rise again at the last day; they shall receive immortality and live with God forever. This resurrection is the one that Scripture calls ‘the resurrection of the last day.’”
4. Irenaeus (c. 180 AD), Against Heresies 5.32.1–2 “Those who have been slain for righteousness’ sake are raised first to reign with Christ for a thousand years. After this, the rest of the dead shall rise, each to receive according to their works.”
5. I have more if needed.

All clearly indicate:

• There is only one general resurrection at the end for believers (and non-believers) at the end.
• The resurrection happens after trials, not before them.
• Early Christians understood the “last day” as the final day of this present age. In other words, the end of creation as we know it.
• Early Christians did not think that God would snatch them away from tribulation.

This shows my interpretation aligns closely with the teaching of the apostles and the early church.

Second Point: Regarding the “last day.” If the last day simply meant the end of the church age, then the resurrection would occur before the millennium. But Revelation 20 says the rest of the dead are not raised until after the 1,000 years. That places the general resurrection at the very end.

This is why Jesus’ words matter so much. In John 6:39–40, 44, and 54 He repeatedly says believers will be raised “on the last day.” If the resurrection is on the last day, then it cannot be years earlier with history continuing afterward.

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I agree that there were some who believed as you have put forth but there are others who did not believe that, but believed in a pre trib rapture.
The idea that it is a recent idea is totally false, Ken Johnson is a scholar who has made it his work to translate early documents from church writers and even before Jesus, that there are very early writings that put forth in their writings that the pre trib rapture was what Scripture was pointing to.
To ascribe pre trib to Darby is not historically accurate, if you look up Ken Johnson on Youtube he has many videos' where he gives direct quotes that it is an old view, not held by all but not a recent idea.
There are very few views that every early church father believed and this is one of them, but Kens work shows that it is a viable view that has been around from before Jesus.
Look for the video of Hebrew ideas of pre trib rapture 180 years before Jesus.

1Tonne said:

1. Rev 3:10 promises endurance during tribulation, but it does not promise removal from it. Historic premillennialists interpret this as protection through faith, not a pre-trib rapture. Pre-trib rapture is a big presumption when reading this text as they text has nothing to do with rapture. So, you are putting your own interpretation onto the text to suit your view. That is called eisegesis.
2. John 6:39–40, 44, 54 and John 11:24 consistently place the resurrection of believers on the last day, without any earlier resurrection or rapture. Only in Revelation do we see any other raising of people, and this is specifically only the martyrs.
3. Revelation 20:4–6 explicitly describes the first resurrection of martyrs, followed by a 1,000-year reign. The “rest of the dead” are raised afterwards, at the very end. This aligns perfectly with 1 Thessalonians 4:15–18 when understood in historic premillennial terms:
   • Dead martyrs reign first
   • Living believers and the rest of the dead are raised at the last day for judgment
4. Rev 4:1 is part of a vision, not necessarily a future event for the Church. Early interpreters like Irenaeus and Justin Martyr read Revelation as symbolic of Christ’s coming and the final resurrection, not a literal pre-trib rapture of all believers.

The most straightforward reading of Jesus and the apostles is:
Tribulation occurs → martyrs raised → 1,000-year reign → final resurrection and gathering on the last day → judgment.

Speculations about Rev 4:1 as a literal pre-trib rapture are not supported by Jesus’ repeated statements about the last day, nor by the consistent teaching of the apostles or the early church.
Please tell me why Jesus stated four times, emphasising that believers will be raised on the last day and not before? Was Jesus wrong?

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How do you fit Matt 27:52-53 " And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." into your tradition?
Did they die again and are awaiting another resurrection?

Jeff Saunders said:

I agree that there were some who believed as you have put forth but there are others who did not believe that, but believed in a pre trib rapture.
The idea that it is a recent idea is totally false, Ken Johnson is a scholar who has made it his work to translate early documents from church writers and even before Jesus, that there are very early writings that put forth in their writings that the pre trib rapture was what Scripture was pointing to.
To ascribe pre trib to Darby is not historically accurate, if you look up Ken Johnson on Youtube he has many videos' where he gives direct quotes that it is an old view, not held by all but not a recent idea.
There are very few views that every early church father believed and this is one of them, but Kens work shows that it is a viable view that has been around from before Jesus.
Look for the video of Hebrew ideas of pre trib rapture 180 years before Jesus.

Click to expand...

I’m aware of Ken Johnson’s work, but the key issue is whether there are actual early texts that clearly teach a pre-tribulation rapture, not whether someone claims they exist. In several cases he cites a small portion of an early sermon while ignoring the wider context. A good example is the sermon attributed to Pseudo-Ephraem (written between the 6th and the 8th century. So, a fair time after the early believers), which elsewhere describes believers living through the time of the Antichrist.

When we read well-known early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, they consistently place the resurrection and gathering of believers after tribulation and at the end, not before it. None of them clearly teach a removal of the entire Church before a seven-year tribulation.
If there are early sources that explicitly teach a pre-tribulation rapture of all believers, I would genuinely be interested in seeing the exact text and its context. So far the passages usually cited appear to be symbolic, debated, or referring to protection during tribulation rather than removal from it.

For me, the main reason I hold my view is still the words of Jesus. In the Gospel of John 6:39–40, 44, and 54, He says four times that believers will be raised “on the last day.” That repeated statement makes it very difficult for me to place the resurrection years earlier.
The question may be, "Do you believe what Jesus says or do you make a theory to explain it away?"

Jeff Saunders said:

How do you fit Matt 27:52-53 " And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." into your tradition?
Did they die again and are awaiting another resurrection?

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Matthew 27:52–53 describes a unique, miraculous event at the time of Jesus’ death and resurrection. These saints (not all the dead believers at the time) were raised from the dead to witness the significance of Christ’s death and resurrection; they were not part of the general resurrection at the end of the age.

Importantly, the teachings about the resurrection of all believers in the New Testament were written after this event had happened. That means the New Testament authors knew about this miracle, but they still consistently describe one final resurrection of believers at the last day, not multiple resurrections for all Christians.

So, this event was a special, God-ordained demonstration, a foretaste of the power over death, but it does not change the timing of the ultimate resurrection that Scripture repeatedly places on the last day (John 6:39–40, 44, 54; 1 Thess 4:16–17).

In other words, the resurrection in Matthew 27 was exceptional; the one resurrection for all believers still stands as taught throughout the New Testament.

How do you explain away Jesus' words when He states four times that the dead are raised on the last day and not before?

1Tonne said:

I’m aware of Ken Johnson’s work, but the key issue is whether there are actual early texts that clearly teach a pre-tribulation rapture, not whether someone claims they exist. In several cases he cites a small portion of an early sermon while ignoring the wider context. A good example is the sermon attributed to Pseudo-Ephraem (written between the 6th and the 8th century. So, a fair time after the early believers), which elsewhere describes believers living through the time of the Antichrist.

When we read well-known early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, they consistently place the resurrection and gathering of believers after tribulation and at the end, not before it. None of them clearly teach a removal of the entire Church before a seven-year tribulation.
If there are early sources that explicitly teach a pre-tribulation rapture of all believers, I would genuinely be interested in seeing the exact text and its context. So far the passages usually cited appear to be symbolic, debated, or referring to protection during tribulation rather than removal from it.

For me, the main reason I hold my view is still the words of Jesus. In the Gospel of John 6:39–40, 44, and 54, He says four times that believers will be raised “on the last day.” That repeated statement makes it very difficult for me to place the resurrection years earlier.
The question may be, "Do you believe what Jesus says or do you make a theory to explain it away?"

Matthew 27:52–53 describes a unique, miraculous event at the time of Jesus’ death and resurrection. These saints (not all the dead believers at the time) were raised from the dead to witness the significance of Christ’s death and resurrection; they were not part of the general resurrection at the end of the age.

Importantly, the teachings about the resurrection of all believers in the New Testament were written after this event had happened. That means the New Testament authors knew about this miracle, but they still consistently describe one final resurrection of believers at the last day, not multiple resurrections for all Christians.

So, this event was a special, God-ordained demonstration, a foretaste of the power over death, but it does not change the timing of the ultimate resurrection that Scripture repeatedly places on the last day (John 6:39–40, 44, 54; 1 Thess 4:16–17).

In other words, the resurrection in Matthew 27 was exceptional; the one resurrection for all believers still stands as taught throughout the New Testament.

How do you explain away Jesus' words when He states four times that the dead are raised on the last day and not before?

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I am glad you are aware of Ken Johnson, I disagree about your assessment of his work, I have listened to a lot of his teachings and he does give a good case for the belief of the pre trib rapture, maybe you have not watched as much as I have.
The other reason that I believe that the pre trib rapture is the only view that puts all the puzzle pieces together is this-
The Church is supposed to be the witness of God on the earth, we know that in the tribulation that God appoints 144000 Jews as his withnesses along with the two witnesses that are killed and then resurrected. That is a slap in the face of the church if we are still here, and if we were here the Church would fight them way more than the ungodly, we fight each other more than we fight the world, and Scripture says the Jews will have a veil covering them until the fulness of the Gentiles is complete.( Rom 11:25)
It sounds like you think that once the fulness of the Gentiles is complete we hang around and do nothing till the end of the tribulation?
Also if the last day is at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes back and touches down in earth, all believers are glorified and all nonbelievers are swept away, who goes into the millennium, that leaves no one on earth to go into the millennium.
Its called Jacobs trouble for a reason its for the Jews not the Church.
This is why I see that last day as the end of the age of grace when the church is called home.

1Tonne said:

The “last day” in Scripture is exactly what the words say, the final day of this present age (the last day of creation as we know it), when the resurrection occurs and judgment follows. Jesus repeatedly places the resurrection on the last day, not years earlier.

In the Gospel of John 6:39–40, 44, 54, Jesus says four times that believers will be raised “on the last day.” There is no earlier resurrection of believers mentioned there. Jesus mentions it 4 times to stress, it is the very last day and not before. (Maybe because he knew that some would make a rapture theory)
The same pattern appears in John 11:24, where Martha says, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus does not correct her by saying that believers will be raptured beforehand.

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 does speak about the dead in Christ being raised first. The question we should ask is: who are “the dead in Christ”?

We see the dead in Christ in Revelation 20:4–6. It describes a resurrection for those who were killed for their faith. They are also seen earlier receiving white robes (Rev 6:9–11). These martyrs are raised and reign with Christ for 1,000 years, but the rest of the dead are not raised until the end. (So only the martyrs are raised while all the other Christians stay in the grave)

With this in mind, 1 Thessalonians 4:15–18 makes sense: the “dead in Christ” are raised first and reign with Christ for 1,000 years (the martyrs). Then, on the last day of time, those who are alive (along with anyone remaining in the grave) are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, and all stand before judgment.

So, in the teaching of Jesus and the apostles:
•The dead are raised first and reign with Christ for 1,000 years (Rev 20 - the martyrs)
• Then the living and the dead are gathered together on the last day, when everyone stands before judgment.

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The last day is the day before Rev 6:1-2 are fulfilled. 1 Th 5:3 reveals the upheaval that will start upon the first seal being opened in Rev 6:1-2.

In Rev 6:3-4, wars break out all over this planet. It's a kill or be killed society.

In Rev 6:8, the fourth seal kills 25% of those who dwell on the earth.

All hell breaks loose upon the start of the Trib. Society is forever changed. The last day represents the last day of normalcy. That is the day of the pre-Trib rapture. All that normalcy abruptly ends upon the first four seals being opened.

God's wrath is supremely exhibited in the first four seals. Ezekiel 14:21 defines the most dreaded of all of God's wrath. Verse 21 cites war, famine, disease and wild beasts that viciously kill humans.

All that wrath to come in just the first four seals, is the exact wrath cited in 1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

We are snatched away to Heaven as in 1 Th 4:17. Rev 4:1 is provably unfulfilled. Rev 1:1 makes first mention of the angel sent to John, specifically to teach him Rev. In Rev 1:9, John proved he was on Patmos. In Rev 1:12, John is seeing into Heaven, noting fine details, while he began his supernatural vision which included supernatural hearing. In Rev 22:8, John gives all the credit to that one angel who showed him all John needed to see and hear, to write Rev.

Rev 4-6 occur in that order. We will be there in Heaven upon Rev 4:1. That will be the last day of society as we know it.

1Tonne said:

1. Rev 3:10 promises endurance during tribulation, but it does not promise removal from it. Historic premillennialists interpret this as protection through faith, not a pre-trib rapture. Pre-trib rapture is a big presumption when reading this text as they text has nothing to do with rapture. So, you are putting your own interpretation onto the text to suit your view. That is called eisegesis.
2. John 6:39–40, 44, 54 and John 11:24 consistently place the resurrection of believers on the last day, without any earlier resurrection or rapture. Only in Revelation do we see any other raising of people, and this is specifically only the martyrs.
3. Revelation 20:4–6 explicitly describes the first resurrection of martyrs, followed by a 1,000-year reign. The “rest of the dead” are raised afterwards, at the very end. This aligns perfectly with 1 Thessalonians 4:15–18 when understood in historic premillennial terms:
   • Dead martyrs reign first
   • Living believers and the rest of the dead are raised at the last day for judgment
4. Rev 4:1 is part of a vision, not necessarily a future event for the Church. Early interpreters like Irenaeus and Justin Martyr read Revelation as symbolic of Christ’s coming and the final resurrection, not a literal pre-trib rapture of all believers.

The most straightforward reading of Jesus and the apostles is:
Tribulation occurs → martyrs raised → 1,000-year reign → final resurrection and gathering on the last day → judgment.

Speculations about Rev 4:1 as a literal pre-trib rapture are not supported by Jesus’ repeated statements about the last day, nor by the consistent teaching of the apostles or the early church.
Please tell me why Jesus stated four times, emphasising that believers will be raised on the last day and not before? Was Jesus wrong?

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You need to understand who "you" are in Rev 3:10 (believers), and who "those" are in Rev 3:10. Those are the unbelievers who will be tried in the Trib by God's 21 judgments of wrath. "You" will be kept from the Trib. The only way that will happen is by being snatched away from Earth, as in 1 Th 1:10, John 14:3, and 1 Th 4:16-17.

Jeff Saunders said:

How do you fit Matt 27:52-53 " And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." into your tradition?
Did they die again and are awaiting another resurrection?

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AN D. IS THERE A DIFFEREMNCE. between Matt 27:52-63

And 1 THESS 4:17 ??

One says they arose fro the GRAVE. !!

And in 1 THESS 4:17 THEY WE MEET TNE Lord in. the Air !!

It seems to me that MATT RESURRECTION is for Israel. !!

And 1 THESS 4:13-17 IS a resurrection for the BODY OF CHRIST !!

And by then way I see 4 resurrections in 1 Thess 4:13-17. ??

How do you see IT ??

dan p

Jeff Saunders said:

I am glad you are aware of Ken Johnson, I disagree about your assessment of his work, I have listened to a lot of his teachings and he does give a good case for the belief of the pre trib rapture, maybe you have not watched as much as I have.
The other reason that I believe that the pre trib rapture is the only view that puts all the puzzle pieces together is this-
The Church is supposed to be the witness of God on the earth, we know that in the tribulation that God appoints 144000 Jews as his withnesses along with the two witnesses that are killed and then resurrected. That is a slap in the face of the church if we are still here, and if we were here the Church would fight them way more than the ungodly, we fight each other more than we fight the world, and Scripture says the Jews will have a veil covering them until the fulness of the Gentiles is complete.( Rom 11:25)
It sounds like you think that once the fulness of the Gentiles is complete we hang around and do nothing till the end of the tribulation?
Also if the last day is at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes back and touches down in earth, all believers are glorified and all nonbelievers are swept away, who goes into the millennium, that leaves no one on earth to go into the millennium.
Its called Jacobs trouble for a reason its for the Jews not the Church.
This is why I see that last day as the end of the age of grace when the church is called home.

Click to expand...

I think the key issue is how we read the passages themselves rather than trying to make a system where every piece must fit a particular timeline.

Regarding the Church being a witness: Scripture never says the Church cannot still exist while God raises up other witnesses. Throughout the Bible God often raises multiple witnesses at the same time. The existence of the 144,000 and the two witnesses does not require the removal of the Church; it simply shows that God appoints specific servants for specific roles during that period.
Also, the idea that the tribulation is only for the Jews is not something the New Testament clearly states. Jesus describes that period as a time affecting the whole world (Matthew 24), and Revelation repeatedly speaks about persecution of saints, which indicates believers are present.

Concerning Romans 11:25 and “the fullness of the Gentiles,” Paul simply says that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The text itself does not say the Church is removed at that moment. It only describes the order in which God is working with Jews and Gentiles.
On the question of who enters the millennium: Revelation 20 describes two groups; those who take part in the first resurrection and reign with Christ, and “the rest of the dead” who are not raised until later. This implies that people who survive the events leading up to Christ’s return still remain on earth.

So, the main reason I still hold my view is the repeated statements of Jesus about the resurrection. In John 6:39-40, 44, and 54 He says four times that believers are raised “on the last day.” Because of that repeated statement, I find it difficult to place the resurrection of believers years earlier.
For me, the simplest reading is that believers endure tribulation, Christ returns, the resurrection happens on the last day, and then the kingdom follows.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

The last day is the day before Rev 6:1-2 are fulfilled. 1 Th 5:3 reveals the upheaval that will start upon the first seal being opened in Rev 6:1-2.

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So, was Jesus wrong? The believers are not raised on the last day?
Jesus said it four times for a reason. He did this so we would not be mistaken that the believers are taken early.
The disciples also understood that believers are raised on the very last day. We see this in John 11:24 where Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” As well, the early Christians knew that we are raised on the last day and not before, as seen in the quotes from Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Ignatius of Antioch even gives us a warning that we should not follow these false teachings.
Please people, heed the words of Jesus, Martha, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

The last day represents the last day of normalcy

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This sounds like you have your own person interpretation or adding your own view to what Jesus said so that it will fit your viewpoint. Once again, this is eisegesis and not exegesis.

keras said:

Those who are locked into the false rapture belief, cannot answer this.
The 'last Day", comes after the Millennium, Revelation 20:11-15, and then those whose names are found in the Book of Life, will be with God for Eternity on the New earth.

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Correct. That is exegesis and not eisegesis. We need to hold the words of Jesus up highly and not try to put our own slant on what He said.
In reality, it is pretty easy to understand if you have not been indoctrinated into the rapture theory.

1Tonne said:

I think the key issue is how we read the passages themselves rather than trying to make a system where every piece must fit a particular timeline.

Regarding the Church being a witness: Scripture never says the Church cannot still exist while God raises up other witnesses. Throughout the Bible God often raises multiple witnesses at the same time. The existence of the 144,000 and the two witnesses does not require the removal of the Church; it simply shows that God appoints specific servants for specific roles during that period.
Also, the idea that the tribulation is only for the Jews is not something the New Testament clearly states. Jesus describes that period as a time affecting the whole world (Matthew 24), and Revelation repeatedly speaks about persecution of saints, which indicates believers are present.

Concerning Romans 11:25 and “the fullness of the Gentiles,” Paul simply says that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The text itself does not say the Church is removed at that moment. It only describes the order in which God is working with Jews and Gentiles.
On the question of who enters the millennium: Revelation 20 describes two groups; those who take part in the first resurrection and reign with Christ, and “the rest of the dead” who are not raised until later. This implies that people who survive the events leading up to Christ’s return still remain on earth.

So, the main reason I still hold my view is the repeated statements of Jesus about the resurrection. In John 6:39-40, 44, and 54 He says four times that believers are raised “on the last day.” Because of that repeated statement, I find it difficult to place the resurrection of believers years earlier.
For me, the simplest reading is that believers endure tribulation, Christ returns, the resurrection happens on the last day, and then the kingdom follows.


So, was Jesus wrong? The believers are not raised on the last day?
Jesus said it four times for a reason. He did this so we would not be mistaken that the believers are taken early.
The disciples also understood that believers are raised on the very last day. We see this in John 11:24 where Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” As well, the early Christians knew that we are raised on the last day and not before, as seen in the quotes from Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Ignatius of Antioch even gives us a warning that we should not follow these false teachings.
Please people, heed the words of Jesus, Martha, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus.

This sounds like you have your own person interpretation or adding your own view to what Jesus said so that it will fit your viewpoint. Once again, this is eisegesis and not exegesis.

Correct. That is exegesis and not eisegesis. We need to hold the words of Jesus up highly and not try to put our own slant on what He said.
In reality, it is pretty easy to understand if you have not been indoctrinated into the rapture theory.

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The last day is the last day of normalcy. Everything gets turned upside down once the Trib starts. It's seven years of God's wrath on an unbelieving world. Nothing is normal about that.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

The last day is the last day of normalcy. Everything gets turned upside down once the Trib starts. It's seven years of God's wrath on an unbelieving world. Nothing is normal about that.

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Did Jesus say that, or are you adding to His words?

1Tonne said:

Did Jesus say that, or are you adding to His words?

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It's common sense. Jesus has the greatest common sense.

Folks that don't understand the tremendous upheaval at the start of the Trib are misunderstanding Jesus' words.

That is why Jesus said what He said in Rev 3:10. "You" (believers) will be KEPT FROM the Trib, and "those* (unbelievers) will be tried in the Trib because of their rejection of Jesus.

What is the purpose of seven straight years of God's wrath? It's to demonstrate that God really exists and that He is all-powerful. The wrath is meant to encourage repentance and to accept Jesus as their Savior. Otherwise, they face eternal condemnation.

There is no way believers will enter the Trib.

You misunderstand the souls under the alter in Rev 6:9. Those are new converts in the Trib. They were very likely helped by the 144k (144,000 Jewish men of God) and they repented and began their own witnessing. Because of that; they were killed for their testimony of Jesus Christ.

In Rev 6:11, it says those souls under the altar must wait for their fellow servants to be killed as they were.

Those fellow servants are whom you find in Rev 20:4. All those martyrs are resurrected together in the last sentence of verse 4. They are next seen in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17.

1Tonne said:

Did Jesus say that, or are you adding to His words?

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Jesus said we'll be kept from the Trib; in Rev 3:10. That aligns perfectly with how abnormal life will be on Earth once the Trib starts.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

It's common sense. Jesus has the greatest common sense.

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But to many who take Jesus at His word, and they read his words as literal, your view does not make sense. Jesus did not believe in a rapture out of tribulation for believers. He believed that the dead believers are raised on the last day.
We do not need to add to His words to make them fit what will happen in the end times.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

There is no way believers will enter the Trib.

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Even though throughout history, thousands of Christians have been through tribulation.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

You misunderstand the souls under the alter in Rev 6:9. Those are new converts in the Trib. They were very likely helped by the 144k (144,000 Jewish men of God) and they repented and began their own witnessing. Because of that; they were killed for their testimony of Jesus Christ.

In Rev 6:11, it says those souls under the altar must wait for their fellow servants to be killed as they were.

Those fellow servants are whom you find in Rev 20:4. All those martyrs are resurrected together in the last sentence of verse 4. They are next seen in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17.

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I believe that the people who have been given white robes in Rev 6:9-11 are the martyrs who reign for 1000 years in Rev 20:4-6. They are also the same people who are in Rev 7:3-17, the 144,000. They are Jewish people who have gone back to Isreal since it was made a nation in 1948. Hence it says that they are from all over the world and they speak different languages. You will notice that from verses 5-8, John who is having the vision, only hears the amount of people who are sealed. These people are God's specific people. There are 144,000 of them. Then from verses 9-17, John actually sees these people. The amount of people is so large that he cannot number them, especially with them waving palm branches.
So, those who will reign with Christ are the 144,000 Jewish martyrs. Not all raptured believers.

1Tonne said:

Did Jesus say that, or are you adding to His words?

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Read it for yourself:

Rev 3:10 (NIV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Believers will be kept from the Trib. Only unbelievers will enter the Trib to be justifiably tried by 21 judgments of God's wrath.

1 Th 5:3 (ESV): While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Everything gets turned upside down once the Trib starts, and no unbeliever will escape.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

We will not enter the Trib. We will be raptured straight to Heaven per Rev 4:1.

1Tonne said:

But to many who take Jesus at His word, and they read his words as literal, your view does not make sense. Jesus did not believe in a rapture out of tribulation for believers. He believed that the dead believers are raised on the last day.
We do not need to add to His words to make them fit what will happen in the end times.

Even though throughout history, thousands of Christians have been through tribulation.

I believe that the people who have been given white robes in Rev 6:9-11 are the martyrs who reign for 1000 years in Rev 20:4-6. They are also the same people who are in Rev 7:3-17, the 144,000. They are Jewish people who have gone back to Isreal since it was made a nation in 1948. Hence it says that they are from all over the world and they speak different languages. You will notice that from verses 5-8, John who is having the vision, only hears the amount of people who are sealed. These people are God's specific people. There are 144,000 of them. Then from verses 9-17, John actually sees these people. The amount of people is so large that he cannot number them, especially with them waving palm branches.
So, those who will reign with Christ are the 144,000 Jewish martyrs. Not all raptures believers.

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The new converts in the Trib will number in the millions. They are the GM (great multitude).

You haven't read Rev 7:16. The GM were subjected to God's wrath in the Trib. That means they entered the Trib as unbelievers. The hunger they suffered is the famine in Rev 6:8. The scorching heat they suffered is from the 4th bowl, in Rev 16:8-9. The GM are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are in Heaven, as proven by Rev 7:9-17.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Read it for yourself:

Rev 3:10 (NIV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Believers will be kept from the Trib. Only unbelievers will enter the Trib to be justifiably tried by 21 judgments of God's wrath.

1 Th 5:3 (ESV): While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Everything gets turned upside down once the Trib starts, and no unbeliever will escape.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

We will not enter the Trib. We will be raptured straight to Heaven per Rev 4:1.

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I think the key question is whether those passages actually say believers are removed from the earth before the tribulation, or whether they say something slightly different.

Revelation 3:10 says, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” But the verse itself does not say believers are taken out of the world. In fact, in John 17:15 Jesus prayed something very similar for His disciples: “I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.” In that case the protection was while they remained in the world, not by removing them from it.

The same is true with 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Paul says destruction will come suddenly upon those who are saying “peace and security,” but in the very next verses he tells believers they should not be surprised because they are not in darkness (1 Thess 5:4–6). That passage is really about being spiritually prepared, not about being removed from the earth.

Likewise, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says Jesus “delivers us from the wrath to come,” but Scripture often speaks of God protecting His people from wrath while they are present, not necessarily by removing them first. For example, Israel was still in Egypt during the plagues, yet God protected them from the judgments that fell on the Egyptians.

So, I’m not denying that believers are spared from God’s wrath. The question is simply how that happens. The passages you mentioned show deliverance, but they do not say the Church disappears before the tribulation. So, these verses cannot be used as evidence for a rapture as you would be adding your own view upon the verses. That is eisegesis once again.

That’s why I still come back to Jesus’ repeated words in John 6. Four times He says believers are raised “on the last day.” Because He repeats it so clearly, it seems safest to let that statement set the timing of the resurrection rather than building a timeline from verses that never explicitly mention a pre-tribulation rapture.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

The new converts in the Trib will number in the millions. They are the GM (great multitude).

You haven't read Rev 7:16. The GM were subjected to God's wrath in the Trib. That means they entered the Trib as unbelievers. The hunger they suffered is the famine in Rev 6:8. The scorching heat they suffered is from the 4th bowl, in Rev 16:8-9. The GM are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are in Heaven, as proven by Rev 7:9-17.

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Revelation 7:3–14 shows that God’s elect are sealed, but this seal is primarily a mark of identity, not a shield from harm. The text says the earth, sea, and trees must not be harmed until God’s people have received this seal, which indicates the focus is on God’s timing, not the protection of the sealed individuals themselves. They can still be harmed.
There is also an important distinction in Revelation between persecution from the world and wrath from God. Believers often suffer persecution during tribulation, but that is not the same thing as receiving God’s wrath.
For example, in Revelation 6:9–11 we already see martyrs who were killed for their testimony. They are told to wait until the number of their fellow servants who will also be killed is completed. That suggests more believers will be martyred during that same period.

So, when the great multitude appears in Revelation 7, it fits naturally that they are believers who have come through that tribulation; many of them likely martyred for their faith.
The sealed are the 144,000 Jewish people (v. 4–8) who receive white robes for their faithful witness. In verses 13–14, an elder asks John who these people are, and the elder explains that they are the ones who “came out of the great tribulation” through faithful endurance and even martyrdom. They came through the tribulation by their witness and sacrifice, not by being whisked away.

Similarly, the “great multitude” in Revelation 7:14 are those who also endured tribulation. Revelation distinguishes between persecution from the world and God’s wrath; suffering for faith does not equate to receiving divine judgment. The promise in verse 16; that they will “hunger no more, neither thirst anymore”; describes God’s comfort after their trials, not necessarily that they were under God’s wrath.

So, this passage naturally aligns with the view that believers, including martyrs, come through tribulation rather than being removed from it. The seal identifies them as God’s people, and the tribulation tests their faith, rather than protecting them from the world entirely.

1Tonne said:

I think the key question is whether those passages actually say believers are removed from the earth before the tribulation, or whether they say something slightly different.

Revelation 3:10 says, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” But the verse itself does not say believers are taken out of the world. In fact, in John 17:15 Jesus prayed something very similar for His disciples: “I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.” In that case the protection was while they remained in the world, not by removing them from it.

The same is true with 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Paul says destruction will come suddenly upon those who are saying “peace and security,” but in the very next verses he tells believers they should not be surprised because they are not in darkness (1 Thess 5:4–6). That passage is really about being spiritually prepared, not about being removed from the earth.

Likewise, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says Jesus “delivers us from the wrath to come,” but Scripture often speaks of God protecting His people from wrath while they are present, not necessarily by removing them first. For example, Israel was still in Egypt during the plagues, yet God protected them from the judgments that fell on the Egyptians.

So, I’m not denying that believers are spared from God’s wrath. The question is simply how that happens. The passages you mentioned show deliverance, but they do not say the Church disappears before the tribulation. So, these verses cannot be used as evidence for a rapture as you would be adding your own view upon the verses. That is eisegesis once again.

That’s why I still come back to Jesus’ repeated words in John 6. Four times He says believers are raised “on the last day.” Because He repeats it so clearly, it seems safest to let that statement set the timing of the resurrection rather than building a timeline from verses that never explicitly mention a pre-tribulation rapture.

Revelation 7:3–14 shows that God’s elect are sealed, but this seal is primarily a mark of identity, not a shield from harm. The text says the earth, sea, and trees must not be harmed until God’s people have received this seal, which indicates the focus is on God’s timing, not the protection of the sealed individuals themselves. They can still be harmed.
There is also an important distinction in Revelation between persecution from the world and wrath from God. Believers often suffer persecution during tribulation, but that is not the same thing as receiving God’s wrath.
For example, in Revelation 6:9–11 we already see martyrs who were killed for their testimony. They are told to wait until the number of their fellow servants who will also be killed is completed. That suggests more believers will be martyred during that same period.

So, when the great multitude appears in Revelation 7, it fits naturally that they are believers who have come through that tribulation; many of them likely martyred for their faith.
The sealed are the 144,000 Jewish people (v. 4–8) who receive white robes for their faithful witness. In verses 13–14, John asks the angel who these people are, and the angel explains that they are the ones who “came out of the great tribulation” through faithful endurance and even martyrdom. They came through the tribulation by their witness and sacrifice, not by being whisked away.

Similarly, the “great multitude” in Revelation 7:14 are those who also endured tribulation. Revelation distinguishes between persecution from the world and God’s wrath; suffering for faith does not equate to receiving divine judgment. The promise in verse 16—that they will “hunger no more, neither thirst anymore”—describes God’s comfort after their trials, not necessarily that they were under God’s wrath.

So, this passage naturally aligns with the view that believers, including martyrs, come through tribulation rather than being removed from it. The seal identifies them as God’s people, and the tribulation tests their faith, rather than protecting them from the world entirely.

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You are missing important words in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The Trib will immediately envelop the whole world, just as Jesus stated. Jesus also said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial." That has to mean we are taken off this planet because the Trib will envelop the whole world.

Rev 4:1 is unfulfilled and it will be the pre-Trib rapture straight to Heaven.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

You are missing important words in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The Trib will immediately envelop the whole world, just as Jesus stated. Jesus also said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial." That has to mean we are taken off this planet because the Trib will envelop the whole world.

Rev 4:1 is unfulfilled and it will be the pre-Trib rapture straight to Heaven.

Click to expand...

I think the key issue is how you understand the phrase “keep you from the hour of trial” in Revelation 3:10.
The verse says Christ will keep believers from the hour of trial, but it does not actually say believers are removed from the earth. Protection does not necessarily mean removal.
In fact, Jesus used very similar language in John 17:15 when He prayed to the Father: “I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.” In that case the disciples were clearly not removed from the world, yet they were still “kept from” the evil one.

Scripture also gives several examples where God protects His people while they are still present during judgment. For example, Israel remained in Egypt during the plagues, yet God distinguished them from the Egyptians and protected them. So being spared from wrath does not automatically require leaving the location where the judgment occurs.
Also, Revelation itself repeatedly shows believers present during this period. In Revelation 6:9–11 the martyrs are told that more of their fellow servants will still be killed. Later, Revelation 7 describes people who have “come out of the great tribulation.”

So Revelation 3:10 can naturally mean that Christ preserves His people through that time, rather than removing them beforehand.

As for Revelation 4:1, the verse simply describes John being called up to see the vision. The text never says this represents the rapture of the Church, and the word “church” appears many more times later in the book in reference to believers.
Because of that, it seems safer to base the timing of the resurrection on the clear statements Jesus repeated in John 6, where He said four times that believers are raised “on the last day.”

1Tonne said:

I think the key issue is how you understand the phrase “keep you from the hour of trial” in Revelation 3:10.
The verse says Christ will keep believers from the hour of trial, but it does not actually say believers are removed from the earth. Protection does not necessarily mean removal.
In fact, Jesus used very similar language in John 17:15 when He prayed to the Father: “I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.” In that case the disciples were clearly not removed from the world, yet they were still “kept from” the evil one.

Scripture also gives several examples where God protects His people while they are still present during judgment. For example, Israel remained in Egypt during the plagues, yet God distinguished them from the Egyptians and protected them. So being spared from wrath does not automatically require leaving the location where the judgment occurs.
Also, Revelation itself repeatedly shows believers present during this period. In Revelation 6:9–11 the martyrs are told that more of their fellow servants will still be killed. Later, Revelation 7 describes people who have “come out of the great tribulation.”

So Revelation 3:10 can naturally mean that Christ preserves His people through that time, rather than removing them beforehand.

As for Revelation 4:1, the verse simply describes John being called up to see the vision. The text never says this represents the rapture of the Church, and the word “church” appears many more times later in the book in reference to believers.
Because of that, it seems safer to base the timing of the resurrection on the clear statements Jesus repeated in John 6, where He said four times that believers are raised

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Read Rev 1:1. An angel was sent to John to show him Rev, by these words in Rev 1:1 (ESV): ... He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, ...

After John wrote the seven letters to the seven churches, he was immediately immersed in the supernatural vision assigned to him, complete with supernatural hearing.

The supernatural hearing was first manifested in Rev 1:10-11.

In Rev 1:12, the supernatural vision started with John seeing many fine details in Heaven.

That is how John saw and heard everything he needed to write Rev.

After Rev was nearly fully written, John wrote these words about how he learned Rev, in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

John never mentioned going to Heaven because it never happened. He only mentioned the angel who showed him all of Rev, while on Patmos.

Rev 4:1 is irrefutably unfulfilled and will be the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.