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US President Donald Trump called for regime change in Tehran, telling Iranians "the hour of your freedom is at hand."
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US and Israel attack Iran as Tehran retaliates across Middle East
- Thread starter ThatRobGuy
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US President Donald Trump called for regime change in Tehran, telling Iranians "the hour of your freedom is at hand."
- Jul 19, 2012
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Iran seems to have messed up in its response by attacking six Arab countries that actually objected to this attack. Effectively they have mobilised a joint US/Israeli/Sunni alliance against themselves.
Regime change could be costly and at first glance impossible.
That said maybe if Iranian citizens can direct the targeting of those who were involved in the oppression that killed 35000 Iranians recently it might be possible. Maybe even local Arab powers could help out there. This Iranian regime is not friends to the good guys by any stretch of the imagination.
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Iran persecutes its growing church, murders Jews, is the largest exporter of terrorism in the world and kills its own people. Against that benchmark there is no need to be fussy about who we regard as good.
DaisyDay
I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State
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In this case the USA and Israel are the good guys. As with all political definitions this is a best of a bad bunch definition. The task of politics is to choose the best way forward - this is it.
They are not ontologically good but their economy of action serves a good purpose and they are making the hard choices to make potentially good things happen.
Iran is the main exporter of terrorism in the region. Israel has systematically dismantled the structures of terror in the last few years and neutered its proxies - Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad and the Hoothis. This action ensures that no recovery of the security threat to the region will be permitted
Iran kills its own people and persecutes its growing church. The best chance the Iranian people themselves have to throw off the oppression they are under will be in cooperation with this current initiative. Despite the rhetoric this is a nice to have for the USA and Israel who are more focused on the security threat.
- Sep 4, 2005
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I've commented before, that when it comes to some of these matters, sometimes "good guys" isn't an option and we have to go with "not quite as bad guys".
In some of these regions, there's not a clear cut "Good Guy vs. Bad Guy" pro wrestling dynamic.
While I haven't been coy about handing out critiques of Israel for their actions in Gaza, if I had to pick between Israel and Iran for who would be the preferred regional power, I'd pick the former.
So we have a "bad guys vs. even worse guys" situation.
What makes Israel "not as bad" as Iran?
- They don't have a religious vendetta against the west and liberal democracy as a whole
- They don't actively fund numerous terrorist cells across the region
- They do have a parliamentary system (as where Iran functions as a full blown theocracy)
Or, even just in more simplistic terms
Human rights and rule of law index by country, around the world | TheGlobalEconomy.com
The average for 2024 based on 175 countries was 5.42 index points. The highest value was in Iran: 10 index points and the lowest value was in Iceland: 0.2 index points. The indicator is available from 2007 to 2024. Below is a chart for all countries where data are available.
Iran ranks dead last (on that index going from 0-10, with 10 being the worst - Iran was a 10 -- factoring in a combination of rule of law and human rights)
Meaning, it doesn't particularly matter who Iran is against.
Iran vs. <insert any other country here> means that <other country> is going to be the lesser of two evils.
DaisyDay
I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State
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But @mindlight claims there are good guys in this:
So far, he still insists on this.
Yeah, this isn't my framing, so preaching to the choir.
You should include Saudi Arabia and UAE in your consideration of who it is we are taking our orders from.
Do we really?
Preemptive strikes against Iran and Venezuela make us the bad guys, the war mongers. Whatever happened to Iran's democratically elected leader? Why don't they have a parliamentary system there?
We don't like them, so bomb them and start a war. We're not just taking out the leadership and fishermen as in Venezuela, but bombing schools and amassing collateral damage.Or, even just in more simplistic terms
Human rights and rule of law index by country, around the world | TheGlobalEconomy.com
The average for 2024 based on 175 countries was 5.42 index points. The highest value was in Iran: 10 index points and the lowest value was in Iceland: 0.2 index points. The indicator is available from 2007 to 2024. Below is a chart for all countries where data are available.www.theglobaleconomy.com
Iran ranks dead last (on that index going from 0-10, with 10 being the worst - Iran was a 10 -- factoring in a combination of rule of law and human rights)
Meaning, it doesn't particularly matter who Iran is against.
Iran vs. <insert any other country here> means that <other country> is going to be the lesser of two evils.
Do you think this is not about the 2026 elections?
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Tuur
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Don't be silly! The good guys are the ones spitting on Christians when they see them.
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- Dec 20, 2003
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Iran started this conflict with its proxy wars against its neighbors and especially Israel. Your tolerance for the evil of the Iranian regime is deeply disturbing.
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Does objection to wars with other counties with similar retched human rights records, North Korea and Eritrea usually win out on that, mean we're tolerating their evil or does that only apply to counties that oppose out
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- Dec 20, 2003
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Trumps first major foreign policy trip as president was to Saudia Arabia 2017, they are also an ally to the USA.
War has to have achievable ends and is a last resort after diplomacy has failed. Iran is a pariah with most of its neighbors because it is Shia, so there is tacit Arab cooperation including the presence of US bases in their countries. The misery that has been generated across the region by Iran provides a moral justification and diplomacy has been mainly ineffective since 1979. Iran's support for Russia against Ukraine and the value of its oil reserves are also good reasons to weaken its government and hopefully overthrow it with the aim of seeing the emergence of a more pro Western government that looks after its own people better. North Korea is Chinas problem. The 2018 peace treaty between Ethiopia and Eritrea holds out some hope for a diplomatic solution in that case.
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How quickly the charade of this being about not tolerating evil falls away.
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Normally I would agree, but if Iran killed Trump I highly doubt that the US be all happy and praising Iran for it, no they be calling death to Iran and islam, I doubt americans wouldn't attack Iran and neighbors that supported it. I hate the people in power of Iran for the way they treat others, but this rank hypocrisy is so annoying with americans.
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