The Desperate Mullahs of Iran

Jesus was and is the ultimate sacrifice...

Douggg said:

Are some of those close friends of yours have videos on you tube or web sites of what they believe ?

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We have done work for Dr John Dickson. He now produces the absolutely brilliant apologetics podcast called Undeceptions.

This episode is a seeker friendly approach to the end of the world.


He also co-wrote a book with Dr Greg Clarke called 666 and all that.

Greg is a close mate.

Then there's the legendary Dr Paul Barnett, once Bishop of North Sydney, once lecturer in ancient history at Macquarie University, theologian, and author of a commentary on revelation called Apocalypse now and then.

While I have met him, I know his middle aged children better than him. My daughter is also besties with his granddaughter.

All around I hear wonderful reports about him as a minister, theologian, historian, Bishop, and most important father and grandfather. I'd say that's a pretty great test of character, and there isn't a hint of the nastier accusations Keras threw against him and his peers.


In fact if keras actually does promote a future involving animal sacrifice which sounds like a return to law, then starting to wonder if that's a gospel issue! That is, I'm starting to wonder if the Matthew 7 accusation actually flies back at keras?


Keras - when you return from your break - it seems we have a lot to discuss about the basic gospel itself!

eclipsenow said:

We have done work for Dr John Dickson. He now produces the absolutely brilliant apologetics podcast called Undeceptions.

This episode is a seeker friendly approach to the end of the world.

World's End

Undeceptions Episode 34: Christianity has plenty to say the world's end. However, our cultural narrative has become increasingly apocalyptic.

undeceptions.com

He also co-wrote a book with Dr Greg Clarke called 666 and all that.

Greg is a close mate.

Then there's the legendary Dr Paul Barnett, once Bishop of North Sydney, once lecturer in ancient history at Macquarie University, theologian, and author of a commentary on revelation called Apocalypse now and then.

While I have met him, I know his middle aged children better than him. My daughter is also besties with his granddaughter.

All around I hear wonderful reports about him as a minister, theologian, historian, Bishop, and most important father and grandfather. I'd say that's a pretty great test of character, and there isn't a hint of the nastier accusations Keras threw against him and his peers.


In fact if keras actually does promote a future involving animal sacrifice which sounds like a return to law, then starting to wonder if that's a gospel issue! That is, I'm starting to wonder if the Matthew 7 accusation actually flies back at keras?


Keras - when you return from your break - it seems we have a lot to discuss about the basic gospel itself!

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Thanks for sharing. I will go and look at those sites.

keras said:

I promote what the Bible Prophet's have told us:-
Psalms 51:18-19, Jeremiah 17:24-26, Jeremiah 33:14-18, Ezekiel 45:13-25, Isaiah 56:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 2:4

Obviously there must be sacrifices and offerings being done when the Anti-Christ stops them. Daniel 9:29 & 11:31
God wanted them before and He will again.
Jesus' sacrifice does remove our sins, but many - sadly continue to sin and fall short.

Back in 8 days.

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It won't be Christians who build the next temple nor restart the animal sacrifices, but Jews of Judaism.

Iran Ayatollah Khanenenei has reported been killed in an Israeli missile strike.

eclipsenow said:

First - hyperbole was a common literary tool of both the Hebrews and Jesus.
Unless you took all those verses about cutting off your hand, poking out your eye,

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Matthew 5 Do you know "the Sermon on the Mount is a Parable" ?
The kingdom of heaven is like.....

1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set,
his disciples came unto him: 2and he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...

Matthew 7: 28 ...And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were
astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables;
and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Parables of the Kingdom Mark 4:1-34, Matthew 13:1-35
33And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they
were able to hear it. 34But without a parable spake he not unto them:
and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Being a parable, we use other verses that explain them, like Romans 6:12-13
"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires. /
Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness,
but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life;
and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness.

Or Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature:
sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry.
1 Peter 2:11, Galatians 5:24, Romans 8:13, James 1:14-15, 1 John 2:16...

It was [a Parable] not hyperbole.

eclipsenow said:

, hating your mother and father, etc etc etc literally? Ouch!

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Another example of not spending time to find what it really says or means.

Luke 14:26 Context- The Cost of Discipleship - Jesus talking to a very large crowd.
25 Large crowds were now traveling with Jesus, and He turned and said to them,

26“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and
children and brothers and sisters— yes, even his own life— he cannot be My disciple.
27And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.…

In Luke it is better read "hate less". Cross References in Matthew 10:37 reads better, being
Alone with the Apostles 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying..

..37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me;
anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me;"

In Luke 14 Jesus talking to a large crowd in parables, Matthew 10:37 was not.
It was not hyperbole like you claim. Why did Jesus talk in Parables?

The disciples came, and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”
He answered them, “To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom
of Heaven, but it is not given to them. For whoever has, to him will be given,
and he will have abundance; but whoever doesn’t have, from him will be
taken away even that which he has.

Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they don’t see, and
hearing, they don’t hear, neither do they understand. In them the prophecy
of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says,

‘By hearing you will hear,and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see,and will
in no way perceive;for this people’s heart has grown callous,their ears are dull of hearing,
and they have closed their eyes;or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes,hear
with their ears, understand with their heart,and would turn again, and I would heal them.’

Jesus says if you Love your father or mother or even yourself [more than Me....]
Do you love Jesus more than anything else?

Looking at the commandments, first 4 are about love for God first and foremost.
The next six are about love/respect to physical Father and mother and mankind.

Jesus also says "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which
is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

"Behold my mother and my brethren!" John 14:15 states,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:21-23

Anyone watching you tube of what is going on in Iran ? Their 86 year old muslim dictator for 45 years targeted/killed in an Israel missile attack. And Iran retaliates with missile attacks on Israel, Tel Aviv in particular. You tube videos.

Meanwhile, the war between Ukraine and Russia causing distress. Maybe Zelensky might be the little horn person. And Putin might be Gog.

The Gog/Magog event, involving Iran (and some other muslim countries) and Russia, takes place right before the 7 of Daniel 9:27 and Ezekiel 39:9. Parable of the fig tree indicates before the end of 2030.

We might be seeing things fall into place.

Keras,
If The Old testament prophets talked about the sacrifice being reenacted, doesn't that give you a bit of a hint as to what testament these prophecies would be for filled in?



Honestly, the biblical theology in this forum is messed up. There is almost zero understanding of how the Old testament and New testament relate to each other. Zero understanding not drawn up by man or worldly wisdom all those modern theologians you despise so much.

Drawn up by the Bible itself.

When understood on the Bible's own terms, something you're not very familiar with.

I'm actually concerned that you fail to see how your eschatology is starting to mess up the gospel itself!

Douggg said:

Anyone watching you tube of what is going on in Iran ? Their 86 year old muslim dictator for 45 years targeted/killed in an Israel missile attack. And Iran retaliates with missile attacks on Israel, Tel Aviv in particular. You tube videos.

Meanwhile, the war between Ukraine and Russia causing distress. Maybe Zelensky might be the little horn person. And Putin might be Gog.

The Gog/Magog event, involving Iran (and some other muslim countries) and Russia, takes place right before the 7 of Daniel 9:27 and Ezekiel 39:9. Parable of the fig tree indicates before the end of 2030.

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Nope. Gog Magog is not a future event of a literal war in some literalistic future and times table.

If you go back to Daniel you'll see that the gog Magog war is symbolic of all the enemies of God wrapped up into one image. He has bits of all the surrounding kingdoms that Daniel and other prophets have been ranting against. The events that unfold after that are impossible to happen literally, as the geological catastrophes that unfold would eliminate any corpses for the birds of the air to feast on for all those years etc. It's symbolic writing using number symbolism and common images of battle.

Amalgamation, parallelism, and number symbolism. These are all common tools in apocalyptic symbolism in other Hebrew works even outside of the biblical canon.

Learn the language of apocalyptic symbolism and you learn what John was actually writing in revelation, and it even casts light on how some of the Old testament prophets were already starting to use these techniques.

Douggg said:

We might be seeing things fall into place.

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Nope. There are no prophecies left for the Middle East or anywhere. There's only the gospel promise that the Lord will return one day to judge the living in the dead and usher in the new heavens and the new earth.

Jesus was the last prophet priest and king. He was the word of God, the final word, the final authority for all things spiritual, the incarnation of the Godman himself.

Basically, the kingdom of God started with Jesus and impinges on world history as the church grows. But the abomination of desolation? That was fulfilled when the Romans destroyed the temple. Or it may have even been a reference to Jesus own sacrifice which allows the end of the temple.


As you read through the olivet discourse, remember to compare and contrast the two events.


These things and that day

These things happen locally, predictably, and avoidably. That is people are to run away. Literally run to the hills away from the Romans!


That day happens universally like the lightning from the east to the west. Unpredictably as explained and expounded upon by the following four parables, and inescapably like the days of Noah.

The disciples asked two questions: when is the temple going to end and when is the end of the world? To them when Jesus said the end of the temple, they thought that meant the end of the world! But Jesus said if they had faith they could say to this mountain - literally mount Zion that they were looking at from the mount of olives -fall into the sea - because their salvation no longer depended on the temple but on Jesus's own body being broken.

So, what do we have today in terms of future prophecy?

The Lord will return to judge the living in the dead. At any moment. In 5 seconds or 50,000 years we just don't know!

eclipsenow said:

Nope. Gog Magog is not a future event of a literal war in some literalistic future and times table.

If you go back to Daniel you'll see that the gog Magog war is symbolic of all the enemies of God wrapped up into one image. He has bits of all the surrounding kingdoms that Daniel and other prophets have been ranting against. The events that unfold after that are impossible to happen literally, as the geological catastrophes that unfold would eliminate any corpses for the birds of the air to feast on for all those years etc. It's symbolic writing using number symbolism and common images of battle.

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Gog/Magog is not in Daniel, but Ezekiel 38-39 for the latter days/latter years in the text. Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16.

Big things are happening in the middle east right now. The leader of Iran, targeted and killed. Iran retaliating against Israel will missile strikes. Iran is one of the nations listed in the Gog/Magog coalition in Ezekiel 38.5 as Persia.

Douggg said:

Gog/Magog is not in Daniel, but Ezekiel 38-39 for the latter days/latter years in the text. Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16.

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Sorry - not getting much sleep.

(Got health issues - 4 hours average a night!)

Douggg said:

Big things are happening in the middle east right now. The leader of Iran, targeted and killed. Iran retaliating against Israel will missile strikes. Iran is one of the nations listed in the Gog/Magog coalition in Ezekiel 38.5 as Persia.

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Except - no. Iran is not mentioned, but ancient kingdoms from the region were mentioned - and those prophecies fulfilled.

Summary​

Most of Ezekiel’s prophecies are about the ancient world, and are now fulfilled. Near the end of the book we get to more eternal and gospel themes, and it’s extremely symbolic and metaphorical. How do we know? Jesus HIMSELF interpreted it that way and made it all about himself!

RESTORATION OF ISRAEL & THEN THE CHURCH
Chapters 34 to 37 indicate restoration - and hint at the new kingdom of God:
Prophecies of RESTORATION of Israel - and more gospel focused stuff about the future. Remember the end of Chapter 11! There is hope. One day God is going to resurrect this dead nation! A new David (Jesus) will bring a new people of God to life. With a new heart! Just like the promise at the end of Deuteronomy. They’ll have new soft hearts. Then there’s the vision of the valley of dry bones – and new humans – a re-created nation is alive! It’s a new act of creation. We see this fulfilled in history as Persia lets the Jews return home to setup the scene for Jesus to arrive. Then Jesus is incarnate, and dies in our place, rises again to show our punishment is paid, and gives us the Holy Spirit to trust in him and being the journey of building those new hearts!

IMAGES OF JUDGEMENT DAY?
Chapters 38 to 39: God will defeat all the evil in the nations. Gog is from Genesis 10 – a powerful enemy nation – and the way Ezekiel describes Gog is as representative of ALL the enemy nations against God. Gog has bits and pieces of the descriptions of Egypt and Tyre and Ammon etc. Gog is an amalgamation representing all of the evil powers Ezekiel has previously described rolled into one. Gog gets judged so thoroughly it requires 3 symbolic acts that cannot be literal - because each is so devastating nothing would be left for the next! Trying to put them all end-to-end literally is ridiculous - but each has its own unique description of destruction worth taking to heart. We do not want to be God’s enemies. There is earthquake, fire, and bodies being left in the fields to be eaten by animals for 7 years. The massive earthquake is so utterly destructive that no body would be left to be burned, and the fire so destructive no body would be left to rot in the field. It’s Ezekiel’s vivid symbolism describing the awful judgement against the nations that will fall when the Lord returns.

THE SUPER-TEMPLE
The rest of the book explores the SUPER-TEMPLE and the land becoming a new creation. Ezekiel’s heavenly temple is OBVIOUSLY symbolic. What temple could be built in Jerusalem that has a river coming out the front door and down the front steps that brings the Dead Sea area back to life?
But we see that Jesus fulfils this vision in his gospel ministry - but in eschatological tension. In the now but not yet of the Kingdom of God present on earth now - but not ruling. EG: Jesus said HE was the perfect temple! HE would be torn down and raised in 3 days.

THE LIFE GIVING WATER IS THE HOLY SPIRIT!
Jesus explained to the Samaritan woman at the well (a place in the OT where a groom meets his future bride!) that HE is the Messiah. (And really the groom come to find his bride - the Samaritans). He says both Jew and Gentile will worship ANYWHERE - in “Spirit and in truth”. HE is the living water that brings life!

Jesus is the perfect temple AND the river that brings new life to the world. Then in Acts we see Peter declaring that the Last Days had started because of this gospel. And by the end of Acts it had gone from Jerusalem to Rome - the ends of the earth. Everything has been fulfilled except the final promise that one day God will return and judge Gog - all his enemies for all eternity.
We see in Hebrews 12 a vision of the super-temple - but it’s Christians worshipping God and Jesus through prayer. In Revelation 20 we see a vision of God’s overwhelming climactic victory against Gog - almost as an afterthought. It doesn’t play to Hollywood’s normal rules of good writing and suspense, with the hero coming through almost by sheer luck. No! God just sends fire on them - and they are gone.

For more detail try these videos - the author has a Phd in Hebrew apocalyptic symbolism.

eclipsenow said:

Except - no. Iran is not mentioned, but ancient kingdoms from the region were mentioned - and those prophecies fulfilled.

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No, Gog/Magog is a latter years, latter days, event.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

The event will take place before the end of 2030.

eclipsenow said:

There is earthquake, fire, and bodies being left in the fields to be eaten by animals for 7 years.

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No, the animals do not feast on the dead bodies for 7 years. 7months, not 7 years.

Israel spends the first 7 months following the destruction of Gog's armies burying the dead.

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.