The Holy Spirit's Guarantee vs. Our Performance - Which One Saves?

BrotherJJ · Monday at 5:41 PM

Soyeong said:
Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed at being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being doers of the Law of God, which is in accordance with Titus 2:11-13. Likewise, in Philippians 2:12, it says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by experiencing being in His likeness through embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach using how to experiencing having an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of eternal life, not about the way to be good enough to earn it as the result.

I said "Obedience to the Law of God has absolutely nothing to with having a good enough performance" and it is you who is trying to redefine that as "remaining obedient enough to stay plugged in".

It does not say that grace saves those who are already saved, but rather it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. It does not follow that if training is salvation then salvation is a lifelong proceed of performance. In Titus 3:5, is speaking against becoming saved as the result of our works, not against our salvation involving us being trained by grace to do works. Again, I gave an example of how a gift can intrinsically require us to do works in order to experience it, but where doing those works has nothing to do with contributing enough towards earning the gift.

in 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God, and in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who are refuse to submit to being doers of the Law of God, so regeneration and renewal are nothing things that happen independently from the experience of being a doer of the Law of God.

Being made to be doers of lawfulness is intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from being doers of lawlessness. We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), but it is also true that only the doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than having a good enough performance in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from those works also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

Again, I agree that the vine gives life and that the branch does not sustain it and I have not suggested otherwise. Jesus said that every branch in him that does not bear fruit he takes away and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes that I may bear more fruit. Jesus said that whoever abides in him and he in them, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from him we can do nothing and that if anyone does not abide in him he is thrown away like a branch that withers. Jesus said that if we keep his commandments we will abide in his love just as he kept his Father's commandments and abide in his love.

Those who hear and and believe the Gospel are the same as those who obey the Law (Matthew 4:15-23), so that is in accordance with Paul's position.

You keep trying to treat obedience as if it is extrinsic to salvation when it is intrinsic to it. Obedience does not preserve salvation, but rather it is intrinsically salvation from disobedience. The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Again, salvation does not rest on our performance and that is not my system, so you are burning a straw man.

You're not correcting my categories, you're replacing the apostles' categories with new ones. Every time Scripture speaks of salvation as God's act, you redefine it as an ""experience"" we maintain. Every time Scripture speaks of grace training believers after salvation, you redefine the training itself as salvation & every time Scripture says justification is apart from works, you redefine works as ""intrinsic to salvation"" so the contradiction disappears by definition.

Redefining terms doesn't resolve the conflict, it just hides it.

Titus 2 describes what grace teaches believers after salvation. Titus 3 describes how God saved us apart from works. Those are 2 different categories. You merge them into one.

Regeneration is a birth, not a behavior. You merge them into one.

Paul says justification is apart from works (Rom 3:28) & that no one is justified by doing the Law (Rom 3:20). You merge justification & law‑keeping into one.

Paul defines ""in Christ"" as those who heard & believed the gospel (Eph 1:13). You redefine ""in Christ"" as ""those who obey the Law,"" merging position & performance into one.

Paul says the Holy Spirit is the seal & guarantee of our inheritance (Eph 1:13–14). You redefine obedience as ""intrinsic to salvation,"" merging preservation & performance into one.

In every case, the apostolic distinctions are clear. In every case, your system collapses those distinctions.

And that's the core issue: If salvation is ""the experience of doing the Law,"" then salvation is a lifelong performance.

If eternal life depends on continued obedience, then eternal life is only as eternal as our obedience.

If God's guarantee depends on us, then it was never God's guarantee.

The apostles preach: Grace > Faith > Salvation > Obedience.

Your system requires: Obedience > Participation > Retention > Salvation.

You can say ""that's not my system,"" but the order you present & defend is exactly that.

Lukaris · 2026-02-26T12:23:47-0600

BrotherJJ said:
If salvation depends on your performance, then you're only as secure as your best day & scripture never builds salvation on something that unstable. Titus 3 says God saved us ""not because of works of righteousness which we have done,"" but by the Holy Spirit's purifying, regeneration & renewal poured out through Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1 says the moment you heard the gospel & believed, God sealed you with the Holy Spirit > His guarantee, not yours. Your performance fluctuates. His guarantee doesn't

Tit 3:
5 He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that we would be justified [made free of the guilt of sin] by His [compassionate, undeserved] grace, and that we would be [acknowledged as acceptable to Him and] made heirs of eternal life [actually experiencing it] according to our hope (His guarantee).

8 This is a faithful and trustworthy saying; and concerning these things I want you to speak with great confidence, so that those who have believed God [that is, those who have trusted in, relied on, and accepted Christ Jesus as Savior,] will be careful to participate in doing good and honorable things. These things are excellent [in themselves] and profitable for the people.

Ehp 1:
7 In Him we have redemption [that is, our deliverance and salvation] through His blood, [which paid the penalty for our sin and resulted in] the forgiveness and complete pardon of our sin, in accordance with the riches of His grace

Synopsis:
Believer, Jesus Christ Himself pours out the Holy Spirit: who cleanses, transforms, regenerates & continually renews you spiritually (Titus 3:5–6). Through this work of the Spirit, God justifies you, judicially declaring you free from the guilt of sin, makes you fully acceptable to the Father & an heir of eternal life (Titus 3:7). You are already experiencing that eternal life now because His Spirit in-you is His guarantee. Through His sinless shed blood, Christ purchased the forgiveness of all your sins—past, present & future—according to the riches of His grace.

Question
Did this happen when you repented from all your sins & were water baptized?

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(NOTE: Anyone that believes they can conquer their own sin nature, without God' Holy Spirit' help is mistaken)

Eph 1:
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].

14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.

Here's when Jesus Baptizes you with/by/in the Holy Spirit
When you HEARD ""the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation"" & BELIEVED in Him, you were SEALED—stamped as God's own—by the promised Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13). That Holy Spirit is the guarantee, the down‑payment, the 1st installment of your full inheritance until the final redemption of God's purchased people (Eph 1:14).

This applies to all who have trusted in, relied on & accepted Christ Jesus as Savior, thru faith placed in His sin-atoning death & resurrection (1 Cor15:1-4 & Rom 10:9-10).

I trust in the Lord’s salvation and the idea of works to me is definitely something I could never be justified by. I believe Ephesians 2:8-10 should summarize all of this as common sense faith where works are an outpouring of our faith. This, I think, is Paul telling us much of what the Lord says in John 3:16-21. Look at what Paul says in Colossians 2:6-8 or previously in Colossians 1:10-24.

We should want to love the Lord Who saves us and tells us to keep His commandments ( John 14:15-18, John 14:25-26) in which the Lord says the Father will give us the Holy Spirit to dwell in us. God told Ezekiel that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked ( Ezekiel 18:23). Don’t the commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:12) inspire the same in us when we read ( for example.) 1 Timothy 2:1-6?

Prayer is obviously free for all of us & alms giving for those of us who are able to share something ( Matthew 6:1-13). Personally, I know I am often a jerk but trust in the Lord and know I will never be able to keep the Lord’s commandments but know they inspire me to live by faith.

fhansen · 2026-02-26T14:21:36-0600

BrotherJJ said:
Your phrase ""dependent on our remaining in Him"" quietly shifts the entire weight of salvation from God's finished work to human performance. But that's the very thing Titus 3 & Ephesians 1 explicitly reject.

Paul grounds salvation in God's mercy, not our ongoing stability: ""He saved us, not because of works, but by the washing of regeneration & renewal of the Holy Spirit."" That's a completed act, not a probationary status. And in Ephesians 1, Paul says the moment we heard the gospel & believed, we were sealed with the Holy Spirit > God's guarantee, not a conditional loan.

If salvation ultimately depends on us ""remaining in Him,"" then the Spirit's regeneration, renewal, justification & sealing are not guarantees at all but temporary benefits that can be forfeited. That is the opposite of Paul's argument. Scripture never builds salvation on the instability of human performance; it builds it on the unchanging work of God, who saves, justifies, seals & guarantees the inheritance of those who believe.

If God sovereignly deems it good that your will plays a role, no matter how small, for our own highest good, then so be it. He's never been in the business of creating automatons but, instead, gave man freedom for a reason-to use it rightly rather that abusing it as Adam first did. God initiates it all, by grace, then we respond, or not. Without His reaching down to us, no salvation will ever occur, and yet without our consent, and continued consent, our "yes", then we'll never be near to Him. And your entire purpose is to be near to Him, to come to know and love God beginning here in this life as we're grafted into Him, the Vine. That connection, founded on faith, is our salvation. And faith, along with hope and love, are at one and the same time gifts-and choices, daily ones to be accepted and acted upon.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6

“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it." Luke 9:23-24

BrotherJJ · 2026-02-27T05:12:41-0600

fhansen said:
If God sovereignly deems it good that your will plays a role, no matter how small, for our own highest good, then so be it. He's never been in the business of creating automatons but, instead, gave man freedom for a reason-to use it rightly rather that abusing it as Adam first did. God initiates it all, by grace, then we respond, or not. Without His reaching down to us, no salvation will ever occur, and yet without our consent, and continued consent, our "yes", then we'll never be near to Him. And your entire purpose is to be near to Him, to come to know and love God beginning here in this life as we're grafted into Him, the Vine. That connection, founded on faith, is our salvation. And faith, along with hope and love, are at one and the same time gifts-and choices, daily ones to be accepted and acted upon.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6

“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it." Luke 9:23-24

If salvation depends on our ""continued consent,"" then regeneration isn't a new birth, sealing isn't a guarantee, justification isn't final & grace isn't grace.

Paul roots salvation in God's completed act, ""HE SAVES US by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit"" (Titus 3:5) & says the moment we believe we are ""sealed with the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of our inheritance” (Eph 1:13–14). Jn 15, Lk 9 & Rev 3 describe the walk of the already‑saved, not the basis of salvation. Mixing fruit with root turns salvation into probation.

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The Holy Spirit's Guarantee vs. Our Performance - Which One Saves?

BrotherJJ

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Lukaris

Orthodox Christian

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fhansen

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BrotherJJ

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