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Is science a metanarrative?

dms1972

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Probably in my late teens / early twenties I began encountering some of the ideas and theories of postmodernism. It was an extremely difficult time for me not least on an intellectual level. Although I didn't study postmodernism in great depth several of the ideas got a hold of me, and challenged my worldview. Additionally I was short on people who really understood what I was grappling with. Now I have had a few years, and with the benefit of the Internet I can search and find other material to confer with some of the stuff I accepted somewhat uncritically back then.

So to get to the point, one of the ideas of Lyotard the French philosopher spoke about was "metanarratives". These are grand narratives or big stories that were not always critically examined in the modern era. Its worth saying at this point I don't take the view that we have passed entirely from modernity into postmodernity. But leaving that aside. Lyotard in his influential book The Postmodern Condition (1979) spoke of Science in terms of a metanarrative. Later he said what he said on that subject was the worst part of his book. This is important because some times these ideas persist.

An alternative view is that Science comprises of a lot of smaller narratives. Think of the story of Electricity - you could probably trace that from the discovery of the electrical properties of amber (credited to the Greek philosopher Thales). The story of Bakelite is another smaller one. Here was a substance that for a while defied invention, but when it was found how to process it, it became used very widely in manufacturing (old wirelesses for instance, but many other things). So it seems like there are lots of smaller stories when it comes to Science or the sciences (and Technology).

Nevertheless Rene Descartes did usher in an era with his Meditations that contributed and no doubt (no pun intended) influenced the intellectual climate in the centuries that followed. Descartes is very interesting when you read some of the biographical accounts - particularly Karl Stern's portrait and discussion of him in The Flight from Woman is worth reading. Descartes philosophy however is notoriously problematic when pushed beyond circumscribed limits, when to use Stern's words "methods become mentalities" - sometimes refered to as a Cartesian blight in the modern world (on this William Barratt's book From Descartes to the Computer is another good read. I'll maybe quote a bit in a later post if there is interest in the thread.)

So I don't want this to become TLDR. To sum up then Lyotard in response to criticism said The Postmodern Condition was his worst book, but even so some of his concerns were quite valid.

It seems though today that some pin their hopes on science or the sciences gradually solving many of the world's problems. I think this is unduly optimistic, and fails to see that some discoveries can be for both good and ill - e.g. discoveries with the atom, have been harnessed to produce nuclear power, but also nuclear weapons. Psychology can be used to understand people and their problems, but also perhaps to make propaganda more effective. So this optimism seems to me naive. Additionally matters of the heart and of society need to be addressed within an approach appropriate to them, which recognises the potential for paradoxes, and not treat these areas of study reductionistically.

Any one want to add any further thoughts.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Probably in my late teens / early twenties I began encountering some of the ideas and theories of postmodernism. It was an extremely difficult time for me not least on an intellectual level. Although I didn't study postmodernism in great depth several of the ideas got a hold of me, and challenged my worldview. Additionally I was short on people who really understood what I was grappling with. Now I have had a few years, and with the benefit of the Internet I can search and find other material to confer with some of the stuff I accepted somewhat uncritically back then.

So to get to the point, one of the ideas of Lyotard the French philosopher spoke about was "metanarratives". These are grand narratives or big stories that were not always critically examined in the modern era. Its worth saying at this point I don't take the view that we have passed entirely from modernity into postmodernity. But leaving that aside. Lyotard in his influential book The Postmodern Condition (1979) spoke of Science in terms of a metanarrative. Later he said what he said on that subject was the worst part of his book. This is important because some times these ideas persist.

An alternative view is that Science comprises of a lot of smaller narratives. Think of the story of Electricity - you could probably trace that from the discovery of the electrical properties of amber (credited to the Greek philosopher Thales). The story of Bakelite is another smaller one. Here was a substance that for a while defied invention, but when it was found how to process it, it became used very widely in manufacturing (old wirelesses for instance, but many other things). So it seems like there are lots of smaller stories when it comes to Science or the sciences (and Technology).

Nevertheless Rene Descartes did usher in an era with his Meditations that contributed and no doubt (no pun intended) influenced the intellectual climate in the centuries that followed. Descartes is very interesting when you read some of the biographical accounts - particularly Karl Stern's portrait and discussion of him in The Flight from Woman is worth reading. Descartes philosophy however is notoriously problematic when pushed beyond circumscribed limits, when to use Stern's words "methods become mentalities" - sometimes refered to as a Cartesian blight in the modern world (on this William Barratt's book From Descartes to the Computer is another good read. I'll maybe quote a bit in a later post if there is interest in the thread.)

So I don't want this to become TLDR. To sum up then Lyotard in response to criticism said The Postmodern Condition was his worst book, but even so some of concerns were quite valid.

It seems though today that some pin their hopes on science or the sciences gradually solving many of the world's problems. I think this is unduly optimistic, and fails to see that some discoveries can be for both good and ill - e.g. discoveries with the atom, have been harnessed to produce nuclear power, but also nuclear weapons. Psychology can be used to understand people and their problems, but also perhaps to make propaganda more effective. So this optimism seems to me naive. Additionally matters of the heart and of society need to be addressed within an approach appropriate to them, which recognises the potential for paradoxes, and not treat these areas of study reductionistically.

Any one want to add any further thoughts.

Science itself is not a meta-narrative, but often "scientism" leads to one. Other than that, I have nothing to add to your nice OP post, DMS.
 
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dms1972

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Thanks. Yes, I thought about "scientism" when I was posting but I didn't want my post to go in too many directions. Thats pretty much what CS Lewis was talking about in his books The Abolition of Man, and his novel That Hideous Strength.
 
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timf

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Science began when man set out to document that way in which God's creation worked. Science gained in credibility as it grew more able to describe the handiwork of the creator. It was then used to support demonic ideas as a sort of stolen valor masquerade.

Consider psychology as a "science". Many would object to saying that all psychology was wrong. However, if one considers that of all the various theories of human behavior put forth, none includes the concept of sin, it is surprising that psychological "remedies" are only as bad as random chance.

Evolution can be reduced to saying "Nothing existed and then it blew up and became everything which then organized itself into us." This was added to "science" to discredit God. It was an interesting tactic by Satan to hijack what God had done calling it science and then add to it that which attacks God.
 
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stevevw

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Probably in my late teens / early twenties I began encountering some of the ideas and theories of postmodernism. It was an extremely difficult time for me not least on an intellectual level. Although I didn't study postmodernism in great depth several of the ideas got a hold of me, and challenged my worldview. Additionally I was short on people who really understood what I was grappling with. Now I have had a few years, and with the benefit of the Internet I can search and find other material to confer with some of the stuff I accepted somewhat uncritically back then.

So to get to the point, one of the ideas of Lyotard the French philosopher spoke about was "metanarratives". These are grand narratives or big stories that were not always critically examined in the modern era. Its worth saying at this point I don't take the view that we have passed entirely from modernity into postmodernity. But leaving that aside. Lyotard in his influential book The Postmodern Condition (1979) spoke of Science in terms of a metanarrative. Later he said what he said on that subject was the worst part of his book. This is important because some times these ideas persist.

An alternative view is that Science comprises of a lot of smaller narratives. Think of the story of Electricity - you could probably trace that from the discovery of the electrical properties of amber (credited to the Greek philosopher Thales). The story of Bakelite is another smaller one. Here was a substance that for a while defied invention, but when it was found how to process it, it became used very widely in manufacturing (old wirelesses for instance, but many other things). So it seems like there are lots of smaller stories when it comes to Science or the sciences (and Technology).

Nevertheless Rene Descartes did usher in an era with his Meditations that contributed and no doubt (no pun intended) influenced the intellectual climate in the centuries that followed. Descartes is very interesting when you read some of the biographical accounts - particularly Karl Stern's portrait and discussion of him in The Flight from Woman is worth reading. Descartes philosophy however is notoriously problematic when pushed beyond circumscribed limits, when to use Stern's words "methods become mentalities" - sometimes refered to as a Cartesian blight in the modern world (on this William Barratt's book From Descartes to the Computer is another good read. I'll maybe quote a bit in a later post if there is interest in the thread.)

So I don't want this to become TLDR. To sum up then Lyotard in response to criticism said The Postmodern Condition was his worst book, but even so some of concerns were quite valid.

It seems though today that some pin their hopes on science or the sciences gradually solving many of the world's problems. I think this is unduly optimistic, and fails to see that some discoveries can be for both good and ill - e.g. discoveries with the atom, have been harnessed to produce nuclear power, but also nuclear weapons. Psychology can be used to understand people and their problems, but also perhaps to make propaganda more effective. So this optimism seems to me naive. Additionally matters of the heart and of society need to be addressed within an approach appropriate to them, which recognises the potential for paradoxes, and not treat these areas of study reductionistically.

Any one want to add any further thoughts.
I find it hard to get my head around postmodernism. There are so many definitions. As these meta narratives are basically words or stories told as a sort of reality that happens. I think primarily postmodernism is the evolution of critical modernism to the point of relativism and even nihilism. .

Postmodernism goes beyond rational criticism to question and reject all truths and even objective facts. We have seen this with how facts are in how the person sees it. Or turning facts into hate speech and the like. Or how subjective identity can trump objective reality.

Primarily I think post modernism is defined as (self referential truths). In some ways the subjective in the form of experiences and feelings is the new factual reality trumping all other truths and facts. Including the meta narratives and the Canons of western literature and science itself. An alternative reality that trumps all other realities.

But now I think we may be entering post, postmodernism. It seems we are moving beyond the idea that words, fake news, narratives actually create reality. We have seen how the words and narratives actually don't matchup to lived reality and I think more and more people are catching on.

They are questioning or fact checking on the spot and calling out the reasoning and whether it is the reality. But now theres an arm wrestle as to what will be the next period of thought and reality. But I think its too late.

Social media is the perfect vehicle for creating alternative narratives and realities.
 
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dms1972

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I find it hard to get my head around postmodernism. There are so many definitions. As these meta narratives are basically words or stories told as a sort of reality that happens. I think primarily postmodernism is the evolution of critical modernism to the point of relativism and even nihilism. .
Yes, thats seems to me a good description.
Postmodernism goes beyond rational criticism to question and reject all truths and even objective facts. We have seen this with how facts are in how the person sees it. Or turning facts into hate speech and the like. Or how subjective identity can trump objective reality.
Again, I agree with you.

Primarily I think post modernism is defined as (self referential truths). In some ways the subjective in the form of experiences and feelings is the new factual reality trumping all other truths and facts. Including the meta narratives and the Canons of western literature and science itself. An alternative reality that trumps all other realities.

Dallas Willard had a good explanation of what a fact is in one of his essays I'll try and add it to the thread.

But now I think we may be entering post, postmodernism. It seems we are moving beyond the idea that words, fake news, narratives actually create reality. We have seen how the words and narratives actually don't matchup to lived reality and I think more and more people are catching on.

They are questioning or fact checking on the spot and calling out the reasoning and whether it is the reality. But now theres an arm wrestle as to what will be the next period of thought and reality. But I think its too late.

Social media is the perfect vehicle for creating alternative narratives and realities.

I've heard the "post-post-modernism" term before. What I think we need to remember is modernity hasn't really passed away, and postmodernity to some extent remain a part of the contemporary world. As soon as I start to comment on it or reply I begin to feel a sense of how much do I know what I am talking about?

Of course in terms of Christian faith, I don't know if these paradigms (if thats the right word) are something we should get hung up on. The Presence of Jesus Christ by his Spirit in our contemporary world isn't subject to these paradigms for people of faith. But our worldview can be infected, and the windows of one's soul can end up closed as it were, if we uncritically accept some of these theories. Our filters can get clogged and we need to pray for them to be unclogged.

There's probably not a lot more I want to say on it, as I am out of my depth a bit.
 
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dms1972

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Primarily I think post modernism is defined as (self referential truths). In some ways the subjective in the form of experiences and feelings is the new factual reality trumping all other truths and facts. Including the meta narratives and the Canons of western literature and science itself. An alternative reality that trumps all other realities.

I don't think it trumps other realities, because reality is something we have to reckon with eventually when we get something wrong. If we feel our car has enough petrol, and will get us to our destination, and we don't check the gauge, those feelings if wrong, don't trump reality. The car rather splutters to a halt before we arrive were we want to go!

This was the essay were Willard gave an explanation of Facts and Reality

 
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stevevw

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I don't think it trumps other realities, because reality is something we have to reckon with eventually when we get something wrong. If we feel our car has enough petrol, and will get us to our destination, and we don't check the gauge, those feelings if wrong, don't trump reality. The car rather splutters to a halt before we arrive were we want to go!

This was the essay were Willard gave an explanation of Facts and Reality

I agree and should have explained this better. I was being descriptive rather than proscriptive. I was comparing the secular ideologies that have come about which actually contradict reality.

I agree sonner or later reality comes to bite us if we deny it. Not just in objective and empirical sciences. But in social truth and experiences. If you tell a lie socially you will eventually get caught out.

In fact taking such a position to deny facts or truths reflects a wider ideological belief. Its usually the case that holding such unreal ideas or contradicting realities is the result of belief itself. Whether its religious belief or ideological beliefs. Its a clear sign that the persons thinking has been biased or distorted by a belief. Not science or objective reality or social truths based on reasoning..
 
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stevevw

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Yes, thats seems to me a good description.

Again, I agree with you.
Its actually a powerful way to argue a certain reality is more important than other realities. If you notice this is very performative and emotional, and appealing to peoples sensibilities.

We have seen this now culminate into actual violence against these percieved threats such as making out the truth or a scientific fact is hate speech. According to this logic moral outrage and violence to stop the percieved threat is justified.

Which shows the unhinged reactions when reality is denied and feelings become the arbitor of what is good and right.

But this is based on the false premise that there is no objective reality in the first place. Or that its a lesser reality than personal feelings. For most of our history we have acknowledged objective reality and science and its helped us a lot.
Dallas Willard had a good explanation of what a fact is in one of his essays I'll try and add it to the thread.
I will check it out.
I've heard the "post-post-modernism" term before. What I think we need to remember is modernity hasn't really passed away, and postmodernity to some extent remain a part of the contemporary world. As soon as I start to comment on it or reply I begin to feel a sense of how much do I know what I am talking about?
Yes and this is the paradox. To some extent reality is subjective and even some scientific experiments have supported this. We are seeing how agency and free choice is part of what makes reality at the fundemental level. Or at least plays a significant role.

But like anything ideologues will take this to the extreme and dismiss objective reality altogether.
Of course in terms of Christian faith, I don't know if these paradigms (if thats the right word) are something we should get hung up on. The Presence of Jesus Christ by his Spirit in our contemporary world isn't subject to these paradigms for people of faith.
It is as far as the atheist and materialist worldview. They can defeat the claims that Christ rose from the dead or performed miracles by asking for the objective evidence. Under that paradigm a theist could never win.
But our worldview can be infected, and the windows of one's soul can end up closed as it were, if we uncritically accept some of these theories. Our filters can get clogged and we need to pray for them to be unclogged.
Yes this seems to be the key. As we are finding how inter related everything is and being that wwe are fallible people who cannot possibly know whats going on.

It would seem reasonable to say that ultimately anything is possible.

Also because we know humans cannot remove themselves completely from the equation and have been wrong so many times. It seems prudent to take a step back to get a overall view. Consider all worldviews and perspectives. To ensure this is not being biased.
There's probably not a lot more I want to say on it, as I am out of my depth a bit.
Yeah the same. Thankyou.
 
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FireDragon76

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It can be, depending on what you mean by science. It's rare that we treat science in a purely Kantian skeptical sense, as phenomena or data, usually we give it some kind of existential or metaphysical weight that brings epistemic closure. That's something postmodernists themselves have often discussed. What counts as knowledge is embedded in power relationships, including scientific or medical knowledge.

I disagree that we haven't passed into postmodernity. Postmodernity has been here in the wider public consciousness for at least a decade and a half or so in the US, and much longer in Europe. We wouldn't have a public figure like Donald Trump being taken so seriously without the dominant mood being postmodern. A dark side of postmodernism is the possibility of both confusion and resentment once those power relationships are exposed, and we are starting to realize that the narratives, not just the "facts" are what matters in public discourse.
 
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com7fy8

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matters of the heart and of society need to be addressed
The heart includes character. And I find that character has a lot to do with what each person is able to believe and do.

So, yes science can be used well, by a person of good character.

Many would object to saying that all psychology was wrong.
Well, in the hands of someone with the right character . . . how it is used can be good.
 
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dms1972

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Its actually a powerful way to argue a certain reality is more important than other realities. If you notice this is very performative and emotional, and appealing to peoples sensibilities.

I'm with you on that. We had a debate on assisted-suicide in our parliament and stories of individual's experiences with relatives who were terminally ill, was given quite a bit of time. Yet there are other dimensions to it that are usually not addressed, this has led some to call it an atheistic assisted-suicide bill.
 
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dms1972

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The heart includes character. And I find that character has a lot to do with what each person is able to believe and do.

So, yes science can be used well, by a person of good character.


Well, in the hands of someone with the right character . . . how it is used can be good.

Someone has to know the circumscribed limits of each of the sciences, and the scientific method, what can be comprehended and what can't. Science is about dissection, not about comprehending things whole. We are back to the different ways knowing that Karl Stern and others have written about. Character is only one part of it. In the end the its Lord Jesus who knows each heart. Psychology is often and hit and miss affair, and when it comes to abnormal psychology, there was never a lot of agreement between the major theorists. Winnicott I think had some good things to say though.
 
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I'm with you on that. We had a debate on assisted-suicide in our parliament and stories of individual's experiences with relatives who were terminally ill, was given quite a bit of time. Yet there are other dimensions to it that are usually not addressed, this has led some to call it an atheistic assisted-suicide bill.
We also have to remember that the cultures in which this happens are very different to what was the belief on this in the past. Progress does not automatically equal good and right.

Primarily the debate is happening in a world that has become relativised. So the foundation is already skewed in favor of allowing such ideas. Almost like a softening up period where society is socially engineered to have such a view of life.

I note that much of these ideas have happened gradually since nations have removed the idea that "we are made in Gods image with natural God given rights".

God has been taken out as the grounding for life and now its up to each nation to determine what grounding life has. But all are human made ideas.
 
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com7fy8

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Yeah, ifI understand you correctly, science can have narratives and metanaratives . . . depending on what you are saying is science.

You mention "abnormal psychology" >
when it comes to abnormal psychology, there was never a lot of agreement between the major theorists.

I have ideas about this, going with the Bible and experience. Do you wish that I get into this, here on your thread?
 
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stevevw

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Science as a methodology is seperate to the philosophical and epistemic aspect where science itself is used as a metanarrative about how the world and reality is ontologically..

We seen this with Western science being forced upon indigenous cultures. Or in how it dictated treatments such as Shock therapy or the idea of trying to rid a ethnic group of its blackness.

This was scientific overreach and it has increased over the years. To the point that people cannot tell and just assume and accept that reality is based on material science. The only thing that is real is physical reality. Belief and other ideas that stepbeyond are rideculed as unreal and foolish.

Same idea as how Indigenous peoples were treated but on a wider and more subtle scope.

At the same time Postmodernist theories made everything relativised. There were no metanarratives or Cannons of western long held truth principles. They were relegated to mere narratives (words) rather than reality itself.

So science became a story, a particular way out of many ways in how to see reality. You will hear students in academia now speak of science as depending on how you see it. Objective facts are questioned and rationalised away as a particular imposed view rather than objective facts.

Lived experiences and feelings become the counter narratives which trump objective reality.
 
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dms1972

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You mention "abnormal psychology" >


I have ideas about this, going with the Bible and experience. Do you wish that I get into this, here on your thread?
No not here, because its already drifting in various directions (partly my fault). But if you want to start a different thread, it might get more focused attention.

It was the view of Sciences as smaller narratives (and collections of narratives) that I wanted to make a point about.

I am not saying these are always competing narratives, though sometimes they may be.

But we have progress along particular lines in science - e.g. wireless communication (from the early days of Radio), but this narrative would overlap with others like the story of Broadcasting (not strictly science).

And as mentioned we have the story of Electricity. We could talk about the story of Flight as another. I think this is a way of teaching about science and technology and not a postmodern thesis about Science, just a digestible manner to break up the subject.

So I see Science as a collection of smaller narratives to some extent, but with certain overarching aspects, like the scientific method.

This is just my own two cents, just more or less trying to put some thoughts together and get some feedback.
 
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dms1972

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I want to mention something that is not postmodern. Facts and Reality are not necessarily always to do with science in any case.

I mentioned earlier two ways of knowing. Now as I say this is not postmodernism as it is not downplaying scientific knowledge as such, its just about recognising two modes of knowledge.

Karl Stern is who I draw on here. Stern was a neurologist. Leanne Payne (d. 2015) also wrote on this in her books Real Presence and The Healing Presence.

In The Flight from Woman, he looked in some depth at these two modes of knowledge. Differentiating the two, he refered to the scientific way of knowing by dissection as it were, taking apart, and what he referred to as the poetic mode.

Before our modern era poetic knowledge "was on the same level of veracity as the scientific although not applicable to the same questions, and its way of demonstrating truths was different...Today (or when Stern wrote in the 1960s) when people say something is 'unscientific' they mean to say that it is not true."

Speaking then of the phenomenology of the modes of knowledge, Stern writes "poetic knowledge is acquired by union with and attachment to the object; scientific knowledge is acquired by distance and detachment from the object. The poetic relation to nature is one of imbeddedness, the scientific one is that of confrontation. Scientific knowledge is associated with disassembling and breaking-up. The poet knows the object by an act of fusion which cannot be reduced to anything more basic; the scientist knows the object by an act of piercing which can be broken into steps."

Again from Stern:

"Since there exist two modes of knowledge, the best attitude is... to refrain from a judgement of value, and to watch out when to use which. For most of the trouble comes when people do not keep their methodological powder dry (e.g., when poetic knowledge was applied to scientific problems, before the rise of modern science - or scientific knowledge is applied to domains reserved for wisdom, as people are inclined to do in the social sciences today.)"


When we speak of head and heart, or head knowledge and heart knowledge, Payne writes "Our language reflects at once the historical schism, as well as the attempt to overcome it an explain the knowledge of faith and the imaginative-intuitive-symbolic ways of knowing...But it is unfortunate terminology in that it too can seem to divide what should only be differentiated, and therefore mislead us into the opposite error of undervaluing the discursive reason, its symbolic capacities, its power to complement and balance the intuitive-feeling mind....The Bible knows nothing of the schism we have suffered, so it does not use the metaphor heart in this way. In Biblical language the heart is the centre of the human spirit, from which spring emotions, thought, motivations, courage and action - the 'wellspring of life'. In the Scriptures, therefore, the heart of man refers to both "minds" or as we say today, to "head knowledge" as well as heart knowledge" (Leanne Payne - The Healing Presence, Chapter 10)



I have to say before i got waylaid by postmodern theory, Stern's explanation of the two modes of knowing, kept me reasonably sane. I am having to keep re-reading it now to help myself. He is a much safer guide in my opinion than Lyotard.
 
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zippy2006

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Is science a metanarrative?​

I think science has become a metanarrative. It would be hard to overestimate the way that epistemic attitudes are routinely tuned to what is popularly believed to be the scientific method, both popularly and even in academia. The scientist is universally idolized, and has become the measure of what counts as worthwhile.
 
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