Ellen White: Meat eating weakens moral powers

The Liturgist · 2026-02-21T09:28:01-0600

bbbbbbb said:
As an example, the Jains in India, who go to much greater lengths than the SDA to conform to the original diet and lifestyle of God, even to the point of complete nudity for their priests (as Adam and Eve lived) have a statistically lower life expectancy than any member of Western societies who do not adhere to their lifestyle.

One minor correction on this point: there are two groups of Jain monastics, the white-clad, which consists of men and women, and the “sky clad” who are au naturel and consist only of men. These function almost like denominations, in that Jains tend to support one group or the other. Also my understanding is that the Sky Clad are nude as an austerity (I could be mistaken).

KevinT · 2026-02-21T09:53:19-0600

bbbbbbb said:
Is food, therefore, sinful?

I think you have hit the nail on the head. No, it is not intrinsically sinful. Potato chips might not be part of a healthy diet, but if that is the only food one has on a deserted desert island, then that is what one should eat!

KT

SabbathBlessings · 2026-02-21T14:53:38-0600

tall73 said:
If she invited being tested by Scripture, why do you object if people do? She is not here to discuss with anymore. We are still looking at the question.

I’m not objecting to testing her with Scripture — she invited that. What I objected to was removing historical and literary context and then claiming contradiction, or not quoting her entirely which changes the context.

KevinT · 2026-02-21T16:01:51-0600

tall73 said:
She objected to this approach of you discerning what was good in her testimonies, and what was not:

I hear you.

Best wishes
Kevin T

tall73 · 2026-02-21T18:37:54-0600

None

SabbathBlessings said:
I’m not objecting to testing her with Scripture — she invited that. What I objected to was removing historical and literary context and then claiming contradiction, or not quoting her entirely which changes the context.

Checking....nope still not seeing any Scripture which backs her claims regarding meat eating weakening moral powers.

And no explanation of why God would tell them to eat as much as they desire if it brought evil results

And no statement withholding meat.

Didn't you find such Scriptures in all that context?

You certainly never explained why she left out the biblical statements about the meat being given as a blessing, and how He would increase the grass so they would have more.

If the context didn't fix that, then your claims of it all being a lack of context were inaccurate.

Her making statements that contradict Scripture are the issue.

SabbathBlessings · 2026-02-22T06:07:40-0600

tall73 said:
None

Checking....nope still not seeing any Scripture which backs her claims regarding meat eating weakening moral powers.

And no explanation of why God would tell them to eat as much as they desire if it brought evil results

And no statement withholding meat.

Didn't you find such Scriptures in all that context?

You certainly never explained why she left out the biblical statements about the meat being given as a blessing, and how He would increase the grass so they would have more.

If the context didn't fix that, then your claims of it all being a lack of context were inaccurate.

Her making statements that contradict Scripture are the issue.

You didn't quote the original source that I could see, so ChatGPT found it for me....they indicate there is a different context being presented...

Where the quote is from (exact source)

It appears in her article “Christian Temperance”, published in The Signs of the Times, January 6, 1876.

It is also reprinted in the compilation Temperance, in “Chapter 5—The Food on Our Tables,” as paragraph Te 160.3 (with surrounding context at Te 160.1–161.3).

So when someone cites it, they may cite it as:

ST, Jan 6, 1876, or
Te 160.3 (Temperance)

What EGW meant by “lower organs… strengthened” / “moral powers… weakened”

In that passage she’s arguing a temperance principle:

“Perverted appetite” (craving/overindulgence, especially for flesh foods in that setting) makes people “carnally minded” (i.e., dominated by bodily appetite and impulse rather than disciplined reason and conscience).
“Lower organs” is 19th-century moral/health language for lower passions/appetites and the bodily drives linked with them (what she elsewhere calls “animal propensities”).
The net effect she’s describing: indulgence trains a person toward impulsiveness, irritability, and weakened self-control, making temptation easier.

Notice the immediate context in the same reprint: she connects the issue to Israel in the wilderness, saying God restricted meat to preserve “physical and moral strength,” and that indulgence would lead to insubordination and loss of moral restraint.

So she’s not making a narrow biology claim only (“meat has a chemical that makes you sin”), but a character/discipline claim: appetite-indulgence can erode the mind’s government over the body.

Can this be supported from Scripture?

Supported strongly (the principle)

Scripture repeatedly teaches that unchecked appetite and bodily indulgence can damage spiritual alertness and moral strength:

“Carnally minded” vs Spirit-minded: Romans 8 contrasts living according to “the flesh” with living by the Spirit (the category EGW is echoing with “carnally minded”).
Appetite can become mastery/idolatry: “I will not be brought under the power of any” (1 Cor 6:12); “whose god is their belly” (Phil 3:19).
Self-control is central: Gal 5:22–23; Titus 2:11–12.
Craving narrative: Israel’s lusting/craving in the wilderness (Numbers 11) is a biblical example of appetite-driven rebellion (even though the text’s emphasis is the craving/rebellion, not meat as inherently sinful).

That’s the tightest biblical support: the Bible clearly supports EGW’s underlying moral logic about appetite and self-control.

tall73 · 2026-02-22T09:38:29-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
You didn't quote the original source that I could see, so ChatGPT found it for me....they indicate there is a different context being presented...

It is right above the quote in post 1, and that post has not been edited since 2004 when I added another text.

SabbathBlessings said:
Where the quote is from (exact source)

It appears in her article “Christian Temperance”, published in The Signs of the Times, January 6, 1876.

It is also reprinted in the compilation Temperance, in “Chapter 5—The Food on Our Tables,” as paragraph Te 160.3 (with surrounding context at Te 160.1–161.3).

So when someone cites it, they may cite it as:

ST, Jan 6, 1876, or

Te 160.3 (Temperance)

You would not cite the compilation, because, by its nature it is a compilation. That won't give you the original context, but various highlights pulled from their own context.

And I did put the reference: The Signs of the Times, January 6, 1876, Art. A

Article A is how the actual reference reads on the Ellen White writings site so that you can pull it right up from Google.

tall73 · 2026-02-22T12:33:33-0600

No AI will be used in the making of this post.

Let's review what you were needing to find to address the contradictions, and then we can see if the AI did that:

Scripture which backs her claims regarding meat eating weakening moral powers.
Explanation of why God would tell them to eat as much as they desire if it brought evil results
Scripture statement where God withheld meat.
Explanation of why she left out the biblical statements about the meat being given as a blessing, and how He would increase the grass so they would have more.

SabbathBlessings said:
What EGW meant by “lower organs… strengthened” / “moral powers… weakened”

In that passage she’s arguing a temperance principle:

“Perverted appetite” (craving/overindulgence, especially for flesh foods in that setting) makes people “carnally minded” (i.e., dominated by bodily appetite and impulse rather than disciplined reason and conscience).

The AI did not find any Scripture to back Ellen White's view that flesh foods cause people to be carnally minded, or that they weaken moral powers. It just asserts that this is what she meant.
We already gathered what she meant. The question is why did she impose this on Scripture.
Why would God then say they could eat as much as their hearts desire, if that was the effect of meat?
No acknowledgement by the AI that the people craved the following, not just meat:
- cucumbers
- melons
- leeks
- onions
- garlic
Why would God spare the flocks of the Israelites if He didn't want them to have them in the wilderness?

Exodus 9:4

4 And the LORD will make a difference between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt. So nothing shall die of all that belongs to the children of Israel.” (NKJV)

Exodus 12:37-38

37 Then the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides children. 38 A mixed multitude went up with them also, and flocks and herds—a great deal of livestock. (NKJV)

Why would God promise to enlarge these flocks in the future if He didn't want them to have them?

Deuteronomy 11:15

And I will send grass in your fields for your livestock, that you may eat and be filled.’

SabbathBlessings said:
“Lower organs” is 19th-century moral/health language for lower passions/appetites and the bodily drives linked with them (what she elsewhere calls “animal propensities”).

Yes, she used a lot of such language from her time. But you were asked about Scriptural context, and why it doesn't match up.

SabbathBlessings said:
The net effect she’s describing: indulgence trains a person toward impulsiveness, irritability, and weakened self-control, making temptation easier.

Notice the immediate context in the same reprint: she connects the issue to Israel in the wilderness, saying God restricted meat to preserve “physical and moral strength,” and that indulgence would lead to insubordination and loss of moral restraint.

Right! Notice the immediate context.

She says God restricted meat--He didn't. In fact, He spared their herds so they would have them with them, and made the Egyptians favorable to them so they would let them go with them. They had their herds right there and could eat them if they wanted. They didn't want to do that, they wanted to complain.
That eating meat results in loss of moral strength--no Scripture support.

SabbathBlessings said:
So she’s not making a narrow biology claim only (“meat has a chemical that makes you sin”), but a character/discipline claim: appetite-indulgence can erode the mind’s government over the body.

The AI further confuses Ellen White importing her views of meat by suggesting I asked a question about narrow biology. No, I asked for Scripture support of this statement by Ellen White, "He knew that the use of animal food strengthens the animal passions and enfeebles the intellect", which she injected into the account.
And I asked why, if meat did cause such, would God command the priests to eat it as a regular portion, and why He would say they could eat as much meat as their hearts desired when they entered the land if there was anything to this baseless statement.

SabbathBlessings said:
Can this be supported from Scripture?
Supported strongly (the principle)

Scripture repeatedly teaches that unchecked appetite and bodily indulgence can damage spiritual alertness and moral strength:

Can a re-framed princile which no longer contains the key contentions of Ellen White's statements regarding meat weakening moral powers, or God withholding meat, be supported by Scripture? Yes!

Can her actual statements? No. Don't forget the context you were supposed to be posting:

Scripture which backs her claims regarding meat eating weakening moral powers.
Explanation of why God would tell them to eat as much as they desire if it brought evil results
Scripture statement where God withheld meat.
Explanation of why she left out the biblical statements about the meat being given as a blessing, and how He would increase the grass so they would have more.

SabbathBlessings said:
Craving narrative: Israel’s lusting/craving in the wilderness (Numbers 11) is a biblical example of appetite-driven rebellion (even though the text’s emphasis is the craving/rebellion, not meat as inherently sinful).

Even the AI had to concede the point! Meat was not the issue. She made meat the issue, reading all of this into the text, and her statements contradicted Scripture.

SabbathBlessings · 2026-02-22T13:35:57-0600

tall73 said:
No AI will be used in the making of this post.

Let's review what you were needing to find to address the contradictions, and then we can see if the AI did that:

Scripture which backs her claims regarding meat eating weakening moral powers.

Explanation of why God would tell them to eat as much as they desire if it brought evil results

Scripture statement where God withheld meat.

Explanation of why she left out the biblical statements about the meat being given as a blessing, and how He would increase the grass so they would have more.

The AI did not find any Scripture to back Ellen White's view that flesh foods cause people to be carnally minded, or that they weaken moral powers. It just asserts that this is what she meant.

We already gathered what she meant. The question is why did she impose this on Scripture.

Why would God then say they could eat as much as their hearts desire, if that was the effect of meat?

No acknowledgement by the AI that the people craved the following, not just meat:

cucumbers

melons

leeks

onions

garlic

Why would God spare the flocks of the Israelites if He didn't want them to have them in the wilderness?

Exodus 9:4
4 And the LORD will make a difference between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt. So nothing shall die of all that belongs to the children of Israel.” (NKJV)

Exodus 12:37-38
37 Then the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides children. 38 A mixed multitude went up with them also, and flocks and herds—a great deal of livestock. (NKJV)

Why would God promise to enlarge these flocks in the future if He didn't want them to have them?

Deuteronomy 11:15
And I will send grass in your fields for your livestock, that you may eat and be filled.’

Yes, she used a lot of such language from her time. But you were asked about Scriptural context, and why it doesn't match up.

Right! Notice the immediate context.

She says God restricted meat--He didn't. In fact, He spared their herds so they would have them with them, and made the Egyptians favorable to them so they would let them go with them. They had their herds right there and could eat them if they wanted. They didn't want to do that, they wanted to complain.

That eating meat results in loss of moral strength--no Scripture support.

The AI further confuses Ellen White importing her views of meat by suggesting I asked a question about narrow biology. No, I asked for Scripture support of this statement by Ellen White, "He knew that the use of animal food strengthens the animal passions and enfeebles the intellect", which she injected into the account.

And I asked why, if meat did cause such, would God command the priests to eat it as a regular portion, and why He would say they could eat as much meat as their hearts desired when they entered the land if there was anything to this baseless statement.

Can a re-framed princile which no longer contains the key contentions of Ellen White's statements regarding meat weakening moral powers, or God withholding meat, be supported by Scripture? Yes!

Can her actual statements? No. Don't forget the context you were supposed to be posting:

Scripture which backs her claims regarding meat eating weakening moral powers.

Explanation of why God would tell them to eat as much as they desire if it brought evil results

Scripture statement where God withheld meat.

Explanation of why she left out the biblical statements about the meat being given as a blessing, and how He would increase the grass so they would have more.

Even the AI had to concede the point! Meat was not the issue. She made meat the issue, reading all of this into the text, and her statements contradicted Scripture.

I think you are misunderstanding the spiritual trajectory of her writings. Ellen White is not claiming meat is inherently sinful. How could there not be a moral decline from the Israelites being fed by God directly from heaven to eating meat, it was never the will of God. It was never the will of God that man ate animals, This was a direct cause of sin, so it’s only logical there would be a decline morally because sin morally corrupts. She is arguing that returning toward God’s original Eden design promotes clearer spiritual perception. Scripture shows that indulgence of appetite leads to spiritual decline Numbers 11; Psalm 106; Romans 8, and meat was never part of the original ideal. I see her statements as theological application of that trajectory rather than contradiction of Scripture. I am OK agreeing to disagree.

tall73 · 2026-02-22T14:13:04-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
I think you are misunderstanding the spiritual trajectory of her writings.

The topic of this thread is not the "spiritual trajectory" of her writings. It is the specific claims she made about the Israelites. They contradict Scripture.

SabbathBlessings said:
Ellen White is not claiming meat is inherently sinful. She is arguing that returning toward God’s original Edenic design promotes clearer spiritual perception.

They didn't have access to the original Edenic diet in the wilderness. And just like the AI you are not actually referring to what she said:

God did not withhold meat from the Hebrews in the wilderness simply to show his authority, but for their good, that they might preserve physical and moral strength. He knew that the use of animal food strengthens the animal passions and enfeebles the intellect.

She claims God withheld meat from them. He didn't! He preserved their livestock in Egypt and they still had it with them, and He promised to expand it in the future so they could eat as much meat as their hearts desired. That is not the Edenic diet.
She claimed animal food strengthens the animal passions and enfeebles the intellect. Scripture did not say that. And if it did there is no reason for Him to let them eat as much as their hearts desired.

SabbathBlessings said:
Scripture shows that indulgence of appetite leads to spiritual decline Numbers 11; Psalm 106; Romans 8,

Then you better get to banning cucumbers, leeks and onions.

You admitted in your earlier post that meat was not the issue. I admitted meat was not the issue. Even the AI admitted the meat was not the issue. But Ellen White made it the issue, and contradicted Scriptural statements about God preserving the livestock of Israel, promising to expand it, etc.

SabbathBlessings said:
and meat was never part of the original ideal.

It was part of God's plan for the Israelite diet, which completely contradicts Ellen White's statements.

Exodus 9:4

4 And the LORD will make a difference between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt. So nothing shall die of all that belongs to the children of Israel.” (NKJV)

Deuteronomy 12:15 “However, you may slaughter and eat meat within all your gates, whatever your heart desires, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike.

Deuteronomy 12:20 “When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, ‘Let me eat meat,’ because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.

Deuteronomy 11:15 And I will send grass in your fields for your livestock, that you may eat and be filled.’

SabbathBlessings said:
I see her statements as theological application of that trajectory rather than contradiction of Scripture.

Ellen White's statement about God's intention for the Israelite diet:

By departing from the plan divinely appointed for their diet, the Israelites suffered great loss. They desired a flesh diet, and they reaped its results. They did not reach God's ideal of character or fulfill His purpose.

God's actual statements about His intentions for Israel's diet:

Deuteronomy 12:15 “However, you may slaughter and eat meat within all your gates, whatever your heart desires, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike.

Deuteronomy 12:20 “When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, ‘Let me eat meat,’ because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.

Deuteronomy 11:15 And I will send grass in your fields for your livestock, that you may eat and be filled.’

Deuteronomy 14:22 “You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always.

Leviticus 7:31 And the priest shall burn the fat on the altar, but the breast shall be Aaron’s and his sons’. 32 Also the right thigh you shall give to the priest as a heave offering from the sacrifices of your peace offerings. 33 He among the sons of Aaron, who offers the blood of the peace offering and the fat, shall have the right thigh for his part.

Deuteronomy 28:11

11 And the LORD will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers to give you. (NKJV)

Ellen White contradicted Scripture.

SabbathBlessings · 2026-02-22T14:24:46-0600

tall73 said:
The topic of this thread is not the "spiritual trajectory" of her writings. It is the specific claims she made about the Israelites. They contradict Scripture.

They didn't have access to the original Edenic diet in the wilderness. And just like the AI you are not actually referring to what she said:

God did not withhold meat from the Hebrews in the wilderness simply to show his authority, but for their good, that they might preserve physical and moral strength. He knew that the use of animal food strengthens the animal passions and enfeebles the intellect.

She claims God withheld meat from them. He didn't! He preserved their livestock in Egypt and they still had it with them, and He promised to expand it in the future so they could eat as much meat as their hearts desired. That is not the Edenic diet.

She claimed animal food strengthens the animal passions and enfeebles the intellect. Scripture did not say that. And if it did there is no reason for Him to let them eat as much as their hearts desired.

Then you better get to banning cucumbers, leeks and onions.

You admitted in your earlier post that meat was not the issue. I admitted meat was not the issue. Even the AI admitted the meat was not the issue. But Ellen White made it the issue, and contradicted Scriptural statements about God preserving the livestock of Israel, promising to expand it, etc.

It was part of God's plan for the Israelite diet, which completely contradicts Ellen White's statements.

Exodus 9:4
4 And the LORD will make a difference between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt. So nothing shall die of all that belongs to the children of Israel.” (NKJV)

Deuteronomy 12:15 “However, you may slaughter and eat meat within all your gates, whatever your heart desires, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike.

Deuteronomy 12:20 “When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, ‘Let me eat meat,’ because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.

Deuteronomy 11:15 And I will send grass in your fields for your livestock, that you may eat and be filled.’

Deuteronomy 28:11
11 And the LORD will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers to give you. (NKJV)

Ellen White's statement about God's intention for the Israelite diet:

By departing from the plan divinely appointed for their diet, the Israelites suffered great loss. They desired a flesh diet, and they reaped its results. They did not reach God's ideal of character or fulfill His purpose.

God's actual statements about His intentions for Israel's diet:

Deuteronomy 12:15 “However, you may slaughter and eat meat within all your gates, whatever your heart desires, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike.

Deuteronomy 12:20 “When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, ‘Let me eat meat,’ because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.

Deuteronomy 11:15 And I will send grass in your fields for your livestock, that you may eat and be filled.’

Deuteronomy 14:22 “You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always.

Leviticus 7:31 And the priest shall burn the fat on the altar, but the breast shall be Aaron’s and his sons’. 32 Also the right thigh you shall give to the priest as a heave offering from the sacrifices of your peace offerings. 33 He among the sons of Aaron, who offers the blood of the peace offering and the fat, shall have the right thigh for his part.

Ellen White contradicted Scripture.

We went through this and it’s not the same timeline. Repeating the same argument is not going to change anyones mind. You are free to believe as you wish, it will all get sorted out in God’s time, He will be the final judge on this and everything else.

tall73 · 2026-02-22T14:33:38-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
We went through this and it’s not the same timeline.

We went through it indeed. All of what she said was incorrect. God spared their livestock before they went into the wilderness. God never said they couldn't eat meat.

Exodus 9:4

4 And the LORD will make a difference between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt. So nothing shall die of all that belongs to the children of Israel.” (NKJV)

Exodus 12:37-38

37 Then the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides children. 38 A mixed multitude went up with them also, and flocks and herds—a great deal of livestock. (NKJV)

SabbathBlessings said:
Repeating the same argument is not going to change anyones mind.

Posting Scriptures, instead of Ellen White's contradictory statements is the purpose of this thread.

Whether you change your mind is up to you. The thread is not just for you. But if you keep responding, I will keep posting Scripture:

Deuteronomy 12:15 “However, you may slaughter and eat meat within all your gates, whatever your heart desires, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike.

Deuteronomy 12:20 “When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, ‘Let me eat meat,’ because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.

Deuteronomy 11:15 And I will send grass in your fields for your livestock, that you may eat and be filled.’

Deuteronomy 14:22 “You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always.

Leviticus 7:31 And the priest shall burn the fat on the altar, but the breast shall be Aaron’s and his sons’. 32 Also the right thigh you shall give to the priest as a heave offering from the sacrifices of your peace offerings. 33 He among the sons of Aaron, who offers the blood of the peace offering and the fat, shall have the right thigh for his part.

Deuteronomy 28:11

11 And the LORD will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers to give you. (NKJV)

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Ellen White: Meat eating weakens moral powers

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Well-Known Member

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Well-Known Member

Sophia7's husband

Well-Known Member

You didn't quote the original source that I could see, so ChatGPT found it for me....they indicate there is a different context being presented...​

​

Where the quote is from (exact source)​

What EGW meant by “lower organs… strengthened” / “moral powers… weakened”​

Can this be supported from Scripture?​

Supported strongly (the principle)​

​

Sophia7's husband

You didn't quote the original source that I could see, so ChatGPT found it for me....they indicate there is a different context being presented...​

Where the quote is from (exact source)​

Sophia7's husband

Well-Known Member

Sophia7's husband

Well-Known Member

Sophia7's husband

Similar threads

You didn't quote the original source that I could see, so ChatGPT found it for me....they indicate there is a different context being presented...

Where the quote is from (exact source)

What EGW meant by “lower organs… strengthened” / “moral powers… weakened”

Can this be supported from Scripture?

Supported strongly (the principle)

You didn't quote the original source that I could see, so ChatGPT found it for me....they indicate there is a different context being presented...

Where the quote is from (exact source)