Ellen White: Meat eating weakens moral powers

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. Rom14:14
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 20

Hebrews 13:9
New King James Version
9 Do not be carried [a]about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

The Liturgist said:

By the way, I want to say I greatly appreciate your friendly and relaxed style of dialogue with traditional Christians. You might not be aware of this, but I really have no problems with Adventists or Sabbatarians in general, except for a very small minority (who are not exclusively SDA but also include members of other denominations) who seem to regard it as a religious duty to aggressively criticize the Roman Catholic Church and all other traditional liturgical churches that worship on Sunday (even if the same church also worships on Saturday - Roman Catholic clergy and religious are required to worship on Saturday as well as Sunday and the RCC has the most worship services of any denomination, with my church, the Eastern Orthodox, along with the Oriental Orthodox), with Anglicans probably tied with the SDA for no. 3. Thus when we are accused of breaking the fourth commandment and of being somehow defective in our practice of Christianity, it is extremely hurtful, and I appreciate the fact that you have never made comments along those lines.

On the contrary I’ve found you to be responsive and responsible in discussion, and I recall one thread where you took the time to look up some theological concepts I mentioned that you were unfamiliar with, and to post what you had found, without bashing whatever it was I had mentioned as being vain philosophy or traditions of men or what have you, and I really greatly appreciated that.

God bless you!

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<blush> ...

Thank you for the kind words. I think you are exactly right that many regard it as a duty to warn everyone of the the importance of Saturday worship. I am ambivalent about this issue. I personally worship on Saturday, and think it is the correct day. But I also work daily with people from all different denominations and realize that we are all on different journeys with God, and if I am not careful I might turn someone away from Christ -- our one and only Author of Salvation.

I will likewise return the compliment. I have noticed on many different threads that you have a calm, reasoned and pleasant demeanor in your replies. You bring a lot of knowledge about Christian traditions that I know nothing about. And it is always a pleasure to hear from you. Thank you so much for this!

God bless and I wish you a wonderful weekend.

Kevin T

SabbathBlessings said:

That said because I am not an expert I asked Chat how it viewed what is being discussed with her writings and how it compares to Scriptures. I used Chat CPT5.2

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Firstly, I thought that this reply by ChatGPT was very well reasoned and balance and it seemed great to me.

But then I wondered how it would have replied if it was asked to argue the exact opposite -- and I suspect it could also make a great and reasoned argument for that as well. So is ChatGPT two faced?? It seems that this seems to be the nature of life, that every issue can be looked at from different angles.

But thanks for the post, I enjoyed it.

Kevin

under grace1 said:

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. Rom14:14
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 20

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How do you interpret the word "clean"? Are you thinking of this in a ceremonial way? In a holy vs sinful way? In a sanitary way (as in something dropped on the floor) way? Or some other way?

Best wishes,

Kevin T

KevinT said:

Firstly, I thought that this reply by ChatGPT was very well reasoned and balance and it seemed great to me.

But then I wondered how it would have replied if it was asked to argue the exact opposite -- and I suspect it could also make a great and reasoned argument for that as well. So is ChatGPT two faced?? It seems that this seems to be the nature of life, that every issue can be looked at from different angles.

But thanks for the post, I enjoyed it.

Kevin

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I actually didn't ask it to argue one way or the other, I copied exactly what Tall wrote in the OP and asked how it reconciles with EGW and the Scriptures. That was my only instruction. I am glad you enjoyed it. I have mixed feelings on AI and do not like it for Scripture, but on things like this I find it can be useful.

God bless!

KevinT said:

How do you interpret the word "clean"? Are you thinking of this in a ceremonial way? In a holy vs sinful way? In a sanitary way (as in something dropped on the floor) way? Or some other way?

Best wishes,

Kevin T

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The scripture is saying food isn't sinful.

weary2025 said:

The scripture is saying food isn't sinful.

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I agree that it appears to say that. What do you think the Bible teaches about smoking?

Best wishes,
KT

KevinT said:

I agree that it appears to say that. What do you think the Bible teaches about smoking?

Best wishes,
KT

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The Bible says nothing about smoking. It seems to focus on sin destroying us but not food or cigarettes.

Just out of curiosity, it is said here we can eat all foods despite God expressing what are clean from unclean meats. Wasn't it eating something that our first parents weren't supposed to is what cause all of this mess in the first place?

What do you make of this verse spoken by God directly of His Second Coming

Isa 66:17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

The first century church leaders, including Peter, James and Paul met in Acts ch15 to decide which of the laws of Moses gentiles be asked to follow. Four were mentioned, avoiding the levitical unclean foods was not one of them. If that law were still applicable law, the leaders of the church must have given gentiles a licence to sin as sin is the transgression of the law

weary2025 said:

The Bible says nothing about smoking. It seems to focus on sin destroying us but not food or cigarettes.

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You may not agree with what evangelicals term the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Anyway, when I was a teenager, I used to sit on a wall close to the church after the service and smoke a cigarette. The looks I got from some of the parishoners made me believe I'd go to hell for smoking alone, let alone my other imperfections.
Years later, I went to hear an internationally known evangelist preach. A few of us went out for private prayer in a room after the service. The evangelist told me much about my life, though they had never met me before and confirmed I was baptised in the Holy Spirit. Yet at that time I still smoked. I learnt a valuable lesson that day, God does not lay the demands on you many of his children do in order for you to be saved or blessed by Him

under grace1 said:

The first century church leaders, including Peter, James and Paul met in Acts ch15 to decide which of the laws of Moses gentiles be asked to follow. Four were mentioned, avoiding the levitical unclean foods was not one of them. If that law were still applicable law, the leaders of the church must have given gentiles a licence to sin as sin is the transgression of the law

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Or . . . they were so ignorant of the Law that they were quite unaware of any dietary restrictions.

Or . . . they decided to table the idea until a future Council.

Or . . . they were determined to destroy the Gentile believers and exclude them from the Kingdom of God, by enticing them into serious sin against God.

bbbbbbb said:

Or . . . they were so ignorant of the Law that they were quite unaware of any dietary restrictions.

Or . . . they decided to table the idea until a future Council.

Or . . . they were determined to destroy the Gentile believers and exclude them from the Kingdom of God, by enticing them into serious sin against God.

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Or they had correct insight

under grace1 said:

The first century church leaders, including Peter, James and Paul met in Acts ch15 to decide which of the laws of Moses gentiles be asked to follow. Four were mentioned, avoiding the levitical unclean foods was not one of them. If that law were still applicable law, the leaders of the church must have given gentiles a licence to sin as sin is the transgression of the law

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I well remember, as a high schooler, visiting the Assembly of God church that my aunt and uncle belonged to. The Sunday School lesson on that day was about avoiding the serious sins of drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco (marijuana was no on the horizon at that time). I clearly remember thinking to myself that Jesus Christ and virtually everybody else in the Bible drank wine and nobody smoked tobacco because it simply did not exist in the Roman Empire. Thus, the AoG lost all credibility in my mind.

under grace1 said:

Or they had correct insight

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That is the only reasonable interpretation that I believe can be made from the Council.

bbbbbbb said:

I well remember, as a high schooler, visiting the Assembly of God church that my aunt and uncle belonged to. The Sunday School lesson on that day was about avoiding the serious sins of drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco (marijuana was no on the horizon at that time). I clearly remember thinking to myself that Jesus Christ and virtually everybody else in the Bible drank wine and nobody smoked tobacco because it simply did not exist in the Roman Empire. Thus, the AoG lost all credibility in my mind.

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I was raised AOG, it was a very unhappy experience for me

under grace1 said:

I was raised AOG, it was a very unhappy experience for me

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The great thing is that, by God's grace, both of us have been saved, not by the will of man, but by the will of God (John 1:13).

weary2025 said:

The Bible says nothing about smoking. It seems to focus on sin destroying us but not food or cigarettes.

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I guess I would lump everything that destroys or harms us in the category of "sin". Others would limit the sin category to just those items that have been explicitly prohibited.

Best wishes,
Kevin

under grace1 said:

Yet at that time I still smoked. I learnt a valuable lesson that day, God does not lay the demands on you many of his children do in order for you to be saved or blessed by Him

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I apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes about smoking. My intent was not to point fingers.

I work in healthcare. All day long I have people come in and we work together to make their lives better. Maybe a man carries a big fat wallet in their back pocket, making them sit funny and thereby causing back pain. Well that is a problem that I want to try to work with them to fix. Can we pull out some unused stuff to make it thinner? Maybe they don't get enough sleep because they are doom-scrolling till late at night. Well, let's see if we can find a way to make that better as well.

I see God doing the same thing with me. There is so many MANY harmful things that I do that He could easily improve if I would just cooperate. Maybe I need to spend more time in Godly meditation, or perhaps be kinder to those around me. The Holy Spirit works with me to nudge me in the right direction. I believe anything and everything that falls short of the glory of God is "sinful." Not just because it is the violation of specific regulation, but because it is imperfect. I think of this like a newborn baby pooping in her diaper. She may be adored by her parents, but they still they can't wait until the day will outgrows all that. We, likewise, will always have something to learn from God, some way in which we can more perfectly share His love to others.

In my mind, when the New Testament speaks of being "saved", that has to do with being an accepted member of the family of God, and part of His kingdom on earth. But that is different from being an effective worker for our Lord. So to bring this back around to medical issues, one with poor health certainly still be saved into the family of God. But they will be a more effective worker for Christ if their body is in shape. So if I need to ditch a fat wallet because of my back, it's got to go. If I need to sleep better, then I need to put my phone away. If I need to exercise better, so be it. And this is also where I would put all dietary considerations. A Christian should consider their diet carefully not because of some ancient regulation, but rather whether or not it honors our body (the temple of God) and makes us all that we can potentially be.

Again, I want to hasten to say that I am not trying to point fingers at anyone. I have my own long list of bad habits that I pray God will help me put behind me.

Best wishes,
Kevin T