• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

WHY WATER BAPTISIM HAD TO GO AWAY ??

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
17,011
1,951
✟1,048,459.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Paul also added more than that about the confusion that was there because ,

1 Corinthians 1: 17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

So he was sent by Christ “not to baptize”, yes he did do it to a few but I see Paul condescending to the weakness of the time of reformation and transition that was at that time where the Jews were coming out of the old covenant and the many diverse washings and carnal ordinances. I mentioned how Paul also was not sent to circumcise but he did circumcise Timothy in Acts 16. I see those things being similar. Circumcision was old covenant in the flesh and water baptism was past with Johns water baptism that was a type and figure (Acts 1:5).

Also we see Paul said “he was to preach the gospel, : not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect”. This telling because the cross puts to death all works of the flesh for justification. Could it be that Paul is showing that many have all sorts of words of man’s wisdom of how water saves and is part of the gospel, as we see many do today, but to add anything, or any work of righteousness that we continue gospel makes the cross of no effect.

The preaching of the cross, the gospel, is the power of God unto salvation. Paul defined the gospel he preached in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 and when they believed that they were saved. No water added no types or shadows added no circumcision or keeping the whole law or sabbaths etc. the power comes not from water baptism but from God through faith . The excellency of the power is of God.

Yes, and because of this and the fact that there still going to the temple with sacrifices abd still coming out of the old covenant they seemed to continue doing this water baptism in the book Acts, as they also sacrificed animals circumcised kept the law and customs etc for active.

Jesus would baptize eith the Holy Ghost. Jesus baptism was not water. Paul said that all are baptized into Jesus Christ and put on Christ . By one Spirit are we ALL baptized into one body. Water baptism does not do this. So water baptism cannot be the one saving baptism .

Paul did contrast the confusion of their understanding of water baptism with the gospel and the preaching of the cross being the power of God. The receiving of Christ through faith is the connected to the power of Gid unto salvation. So the teaching/preaching is one way men hear the word and believe.
We have been through this: Water baptism is something Christians get to do to help them with their walk and does not "save" them.
Water baptism was part of the diverse washings (baptismos in Greek I believe) and carnal ordinances imposed upon them (the Jews) until the time of reformation,(Hebrews 9)

Hebrews 9: 10. Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”
When are you saying the "Reformation" happened since there should be no further divers washings after that?
The conscience cannot be perfect or clean by outward ordinances.

Paul said the preaching of he cross (the gospel) is the power of God. This power is given through faith. And in Acts 10 we see while Peter was preaching the word those Spirit fell on them that believed. Etc .

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. They were clean by the word Jesus spoke. Jesus said he gave them the Father’s word and kept them in His name . Jesus said the words that he spoke were spirit are spirit and life, (John 6:63)

A person can be immersed into Christian’s by the Spirit through faith when they believe the word. He that believes hath everlasting life.

The teaching immerses them in the name…

Yes, so to immerse in the name is similar to immersing into the name.

No believer is “ceremonially” in the Christian family. There is only one way any person is actually in Christian and the body of Christ and here it is,

1 Corinthians 12: 13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

A shadow and type is just that a figure but believers are actually in Christian the substance and reality. We are not saved by figures but the reality.
There are good logical reasons why the Lord would want the people to continue to think/believe Christ was coming back shortly, but what is the logic behind God wanting John's baptism to continue?
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,907
1,796
✟226,414.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You are self-contradicting by saying: Peter was just following the Jewish tradition of water baptizing Jews and Gentiles, yet to start-out with on the first day, Pentecost when he says to only Jews be baptized in the name of Jesus, he is only doing Spiritual and not water baptism which he will later do?
No contradiction. The Jewish believers were still under the law in Acts 2 right through as we see in Acts even till Acts 21.

So they were going both the spiritual in the preaching the word the gospel and faith and yet they were still sacrificing animals and doing many diverse washings and carnal ordinances for a long time.

For example Jesus Christ is the one sacrifice for sin and through faith in his shed blood we believe to life. But we don’t need to do animal sacrifices still. Yet they were doing both .

So baptism as a figure was still done but the reality of being baptized into Jesus Christ was there also .
 
Upvote 0

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
4,992
409
89
Arcadia
✟285,704.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for your explanation.



I think your missing the reason and value to water baptism:

New Christians may not tap into everything that is available to them to help them experience the transformation:

I do not know of any Christian group, who believe the water itself saves you, since all believe it is God who saves and God is not limited by water.

Water baptism is not a “requirement” for salvation, since God does the saving, but is something Christians get to do to help them and others.

I know that I needed everything God could provide to assure me of my conversion, both outwardly and mentally. God wants you to physically feel the experience of what is going on Spiritually.

You would like to add to your conversion a definite time place and physical experience, which God has provided for you.

Adult believers water immersion is to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.

Christian Baptism replaced John’s Baptism and not circumcision, since circumcision went on at the same time as John’s baptism and it is not in the Bible where, Jewish Christians cease circumcising their boy children after baptism became available. Circumcision was a physical visible daily reminder to all Jewish boys and men that they were a Jew. The indwelling Holy Spirit is our literal daily reminder that we are Christians. The indwelling Holy Spirit replaced circumcision and is for both men and women.





There also appears to be many portions of the Spirit being given, but do not assume a particular Greek preposition will tell you if it is “on” or “in” since prepositions can take on either meaning most of the time, means change for prepositions and we do not know how these particular ones were used at the time in and around Jerusalem. The context is what we have got to look at.

A baptism of the Holy Spirit seems to be a very unique event, since Peter when he sees it happen to Cornelius and his household must go back years past to Pentecost, so it was not a daily occurrence.

Acts 10: 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Acts 11: 15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

Peter in his explanation to the Jerusalem Jews had to go back years to the beginning to get a similar “Holy Spirit” baptism, which would mean it was unique.

We know followers before Pentecost had a portion of the Spirit John 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit

But Christ said specifically: John 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

After Pentecost there is the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit.

Christian water baptism as seen in scripture seems to fit the “born again” scenario Christ was talking about since it: Is always adult (there are examples that “might include infants” but nothing definite, all the others are adult believers) water immersion to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do it to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.

Why not be baptized again (there is no rule against this) to experience all you can from being baptized?

Yes, Ro. 10 is silent about baptism, but silence is not a proof for anything, and baptism was not the topic being discussed, the Jews had to believe first, so baptism would be down the road.

Is the real problem with humility, since adult water baptism is a humbling act?

Is the problem with “witnessing” since baptism help other Christians remember what they went through?

The whole “argument” about the “one” baptism having to be “spiritual baptism” so we do not need to (or even shouldn’t) be water immersed is not supported by scriptural examples, since everyone that was “baptized” by the Holy Spirit seems to have also been water baptized, also.

In an effort to emphasis God’s unconditional (salvation), water baptism of believers has been avoided as a subject. People have “argued” that water baptism is a work and since “works” are not required for salvation, water baptism must be avoided. Most “Christian” religious groups “allow” immersion of believers if they want it.

The problem with this reasoning is adult believer immersion is not something you “do” (work), but is something you allow to be done to you. It is not something “done” as some requirement, but is something you get to do for your sake (to help you) and the sake of others.

As for the scriptures you bring up:

Yes, the Jews (including Paul around Jews) throughout Acts are still practicing the Jewish traditions and Acts is before 70AD (destruction of the temple).

John’s baptism was for repentance, which carries the idea of faith in God’s forgiveness and turning toward pleasing God out of gratitude for forgiveness toward doing works of repentance (helping others).

John’s baptism being prior to Christian baptism could not be a physical demonstration of Christ’s being dead, buried and rising from the grave example. This new life in fellowship with other Christians and the indwelling Holy Spirit could not be part of John’s baptism.

Also the Jews had lot of different ceremonial washings, but they also had voiles and commitments which included water immersions.

1 Peter 3: 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

1 Peter 3 is not putting down water baptism, water is symbolic of the Christians’ salvation also as it was for Noah. Water Christian Baptism is not being done to cleanse the dirt from your body, but symbolic of the pledge (commitment or oath) you’re making to God.

Heb. 9: 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Heb. 9 is showing how the ceremonial traditional acts of the Jews did nothing but were symbolic of what was to come. Christian water baptism does nothing tangible but is symbolic of what is going on Spiritually and thus helps the new Christian experience what is happening. Christian water baptism is extremely different from Jewish ceremonial washings and John’s baptism for repentance (commitment).

Gal. 3: 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We were “baptized into Christ…” and thus “clothed yourselves with Christ”, but Christ was also baptized in water. Just like gentile female proselytes were water baptized (immersed) into a covenant Judaism relationship, to become Children of God we to were baptized into belonging to Christ.

This also works for:

Galatians 3: 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

1 Corinthians 12: 13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

The water is not significant, but it is there.

You say: “Paul said Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel” which comes from:

1 Cor. 1: 10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Christ avoided baptizing any individual, so no individual could not take pride in being baptized by Christ, but Jesus’ disciples baptized lots of people with John’s baptism at the time. Paul is saying he was glad he had not personally baptized more people for what I would say is the same reason Christ did not baptize any and from the context we can see why, so why did Paul baptize some and with what baptism did Paul baptize people?
an d 1 P[ETER 3:21 WHJERE IT SAYS BAPTISM BUT. the GREEK TEXT says not is GHREEK word BAPTISMA. .

This GREEK word is used 22 times from Matthew thru 1 P[ETYER 3:21 !!

dan p
 
Upvote 0

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
4,992
409
89
Arcadia
✟285,704.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We have been through this: Water baptism is something Christians get to do to help them with their walk and does not "save" them.

When are you saying the "Reformation" happened since there should be no further divers washings after that?

There are good logical reasons why the Lord would want the people to continue to think/believe Christ was coming back shortly, but what is the logic behind God wanting John's baptism to continue?
And your HEBREWS should. be HEBREWS 6:3 !!

dan p
 
Upvote 0

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
4,992
409
89
Arcadia
✟285,704.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus tells us why He was baptized:

Matt. 3:15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

John’s baptism was a righteous act, so Jesus could be a great example of doing a righteous act.

Matt. 28: 19-20 applies to all people.
Since Jesus tells us why He was baptized and would like to know WHY. !!

And iof you say to FULFIL ALL RIGTHENNESS. is just. the BEGINNING. . SO GIVE A SHOT !!

DAN P
 
Upvote 0