• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
16,032
7,921
31
Wales
✟453,674.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
I just wanted to drop this here since I only just found it out myself, but a team under Max Fomitchev-Zamilov has done a study on numerous Egyptian vases, included many from the Petrie museum and many in private collections, and the results are that the ones in private collections that appear to be done by advanced technology was done by advanced technology.... as in being done in the last 100 years or so as forgeries.

For the npj heritage science page:

A metrological method for manufacturing quality assessment and classification of ancient Egyptian stone vessels


And also the PDF for it too:
 
Upvote 0

sjastro

Newbie
May 14, 2014
6,200
5,041
✟373,899.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I just wanted to drop this here since I only just found it out myself, but a team under Max Fomitchev-Zamilov has done a study on numerous Egyptian vases, included many from the Petrie museum and many in private collections, and the results are that the ones in private collections that appear to be done by advanced technology was done by advanced technology.... as in being done in the last 100 years or so as forgeries.

For the npj heritage science page:

A metrological method for manufacturing quality assessment and classification of ancient Egyptian stone vessels


And also the PDF for it too:
There is also this recent information indicating predynastic Egyptians used copper drill bits and bow drills, not CNC lathes as idiotically asserted in this thread.

Microscopic analysis revealed diagnostic use-wear patterns—fine circumferential striations, edge rounding, and slight distal curvature—consistent with sustained rotary motion rather than simple puncturing. These features strongly indicate that it was used as a drill bit rather than an awl.

The study, published in Egypt and the Levant, also reexamined six tightly wound coils of extremely fragile leather thong preserved around the shaft. The authors argue that these are the remains of a bowstring, providing rare organic evidence for the use of a bow drill. In such systems, a cord is wrapped around a vertical shaft and driven by a reciprocating bow, generating rapid rotational motion and significantly improving efficiency and control compared with hand-twisting methods.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
31,079
14,016
78
✟467,719.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Upvote 0

sjastro

Newbie
May 14, 2014
6,200
5,041
✟373,899.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There is also this recent information indicating predynastic Egyptians used copper drill bits and bow drills, not CNC lathes as idiotically asserted in this thread.


Here is the academic article.

It may be the Naqada II culture predynastic Egyptians had a superior metallurgical technology compared to the succeeding pharaonic Old Kingdom given XRF analysis of the drill bit showed apart from copper it contained arsenic, nickel, silver and lead which would have hardened the tool.
By comparison copper tools found in the 3rd dynasty contained less than 2% arsenic and would have been softer.

Since the actual composition of the Naqada drill bit in percentages is not revealed, ChatGPt created a hypothetical case for a recipe to maximize hardness and assuming the Naqada II culture could cold work the alloy.
This was compared to the hardness of tools used by the Egyptians from later periods.

Using the description you provided — especially the phrase “highly unusual CuAsNi material with the addition of silver and lead” — we can make a reasoned metallurgical hypothesis about likely composition ranges and revise the hardness estimates accordingly.

Since it is described as CuAsNi rather than simple arsenical copper, that suggests:

  • Arsenic content likely ≥2–5 wt %
  • Nickel likely ~1–3 wt %
  • Silver and lead probably <1–2 wt % each (minor additions)
That would place it well above simple arsenical copper and approaching low–medium tin bronze strength, especially if cold-worked.

Below is the chronological table with hypothesized composition and updated hardness estimates.


Egyptian Tool Materials — Chronological Metallurgical Comparison​

PeriodApprox. DateHypothesized CompositionEstimated Vickers Hardness (HV)*Relative PerformanceMetallurgical Notes
Predynastic (Naqada IID, Badari drill)c. 3300–3000 BCCu + 2–5% As + 1–3% Ni + trace Ag, Pb100–160 HV (up to ~170 HV cold-worked)High for Copper AgeCombined solid-solution strengthening from As + Ni. Could rival low-tin bronze if heavily work-hardened. Technologically sophisticated alloy.
3rd Dynasty (Old Kingdom)c. 2700 BCMostly Cu, sometimes <2% As50–90 HV (up to ~100 HV work-hardened)LowPrimarily work-hardened copper. Limited alloy strengthening.
New Kingdom (Bronze Age peak)c. 1550–1070 BCCu + 5–12% Sn120–200 HV (occasionally 220 HV)Very HighTrue bronze phase strengthening. Better edge retention and wear resistance.
Late Period (Iron Age Egypt)c. 664–332 BCWrought iron (0.02–0.1% C), occasional early steel (0.3–0.6% C)120–200 HV (wrought iron) 250–400+ HV (quenched steel)Highest overallCarburization and quenching produce martensitic structures exceeding bronze hardness.
*HV values are approximate experimental ranges based on comparable ancient alloys and degree of cold work.


Key Metallurgical Implication​

With this revised hypothesis:

  • The Predynastic Cu–As–Ni drill may have been nearly as hard as moderate tin bronze, especially if work-hardened.
  • It would have been substantially harder than Old Kingdom copper tools.
  • It likely falls in the lower-to-mid bronze hardness range, which is remarkable for ~3300 BC.

Revised Hardness Ranking (Softest → Hardest)​

Old Kingdom copper
→ Predynastic Cu–As–Ni alloy
→ New Kingdom bronze
→ Wrought iron
→ Early steel


Important Insight​

If the arsenic content were closer to 4–5% and the nickel near 2–3%, this drill could represent one of the hardest known Egyptian copper-alloy tools of the 4th millennium BC, potentially explaining its suitability for bead drilling and woodworking.

If you'd like, I can now:

  • Convert this into MPa tensile strength estimates,
  • Compare it directly to granite/quartz drilling requirements, or
  • Model the expected wear rate relative to bronze tools.

The alloy would still not be hard enough to drill holes in granite requiring the use of abrasives and was softer than New and Late Kingdom tools.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Barbarian
Upvote 0