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Can a faithful Christian be damned for not being baptized?

Danthemailman

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Fellowship with Jesus is, firstly, salvatory, and secondly, John ch. 6 expressly declares that eating the Body and Blood of our Lord is a requirement for salvation. (John 6:53-66; this statement was, it turns out, almost as unpopular among the followers of our Lord in 33 AD as it is now, with libraries of books having been written since the 16th century in an attempt to deny that Christ our God meant what he said in chapter 6 literally, as is reflected in 1 Corinthians 11 and in the synoptic Institution Narratives).



None of that is true outside of the Roman Rite and its various Western Protestant derivatives. In most of the ancient Christian liturgies, the bride and groom do not perform the sacrament of Holy Matrimony on each other, but are united into one flesh by being crowned and drinking of a common chalice by the Bishop or Presbyter. For this reason the liturgy of Matrimony and the Byzantine and Slavic Coronation liturgy (which was the same whether in Constantinople, Belgrade, Moscow, Sofia or Bucharest) is almost identical, and in all the Eastern churches the sacrament of Holy Matrimony is referred to as Crowning.

However, liturgical parallels aside, Zwinglianism also collapses under the weight of the same scripture Martin Luther properly carved into the table at the Marburg Colloquy around 500 years ago, as our Lutheran friends @ViaCrucis @Ain't Zwinglian and @MarkRohfrietsch will confirm - HOC EST CORPUS MEUM.

”THIS IS MY BODY.”

Not, “This is a symbol of my body,” or “This is a memorial of my body“ or “This will become my body when you receive it in your mouth” but “This is my body,” present tense, and “This is my blood.”

And the word translated as remembrance in the original Greek is Anamnesis, which has a more complex meaning, akin to recapitulation - for it is the belief of traditional Christians who believe in the real presence that we are participating in the Lord’s Supper with Christ our God.

It should also be noted that the reason why we usually practice closed or semi-closed communion (at a minimum limiting participation to the baptized in all but the most liberal of Anglican parishes, and in Orthodox and Lutheran parishes admitting only those whose membership in the Church is certain for our clergy, who will have to offer an account), is found in 1 Corinthians 11:27-34; since it is the body and blood of our Lord, we do not want to partake of it unworthily, and be among those ill or reposed St. Paul warns us of.

Thus, there is a Scriptural imperative for the Real Presence and partaking the Eucharist to receive Salvation, and to reject Zwinglianism, but since in Orthodoxy we are not Sola Scriptura, the weight of tradition also applies and when we examine the liturgical history of the Christian church, well, the interesting fact is that all ancient liturgies have a text called the Epiklesis, except for the Roman Canon (but it has equivalent features) which requests the Holy Spirit to descend and change the elements of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ our God. Indeed, I cannot tell you of any which lack this feature in some form, for prior to the Restoration, they did not exist; the closest would be the Roman Canon, but since obviously the Roman Catholics believe in the Real Presence and the Real Change that also doesn’t change anything from a historical perspective; there is no evidence of a systemic lack of belief in the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist being common among Christians until the Calvinist, Zwinglian and Anglican churches, although the Calvinists at least admitted a spiritual presence (some say Theodore of Mopsuestia denied the reality of the physical presence, but this is not true, for (a) he wrote a liturgy with a very strong Epiklesis and (b) expressed the interesting belief that the Prothesis, that is, the traditional liturgy of preparation that is the common patrimony of all the ancient Eastern chuches - Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Church of the East, inaccurately called the Nestorians, although only the latter venerates Theodore as a saint for Nestorius used aspects of his theology to reinforce the Nestorian heresy, well Theodore taught that the Prothesis changes the bread and wine into the crucified body and blood of Christ and then the Epiclesis causes them to become the resurrected Body and Blood of our Lord, which is interesting; not doctrinal even in the Church of the East which venerates him since its a bit odd, but definitely not a denial of the real presence, but rather, it represents the most eccentric view on the Eucharist one would find in any church prior to the 16th century.

Indeed, the main gripe of the Proto-protestant retro-Orthodox Moravians led by St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, who are venerated by the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia as martyrs, was the lack of communion in both kinds for the laity and the lack of a vernacular liturgy, which the Czechs and Slovaks had enjoyed before they were conquered and forcibly placed under Roman clergy by the Austrians in 1200 AD ( about 5 years before the evil and decadent Venetian Republic redirected the Fourth Crusade from the Holy Land to Constantinople).
In regard to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63) As Jesus was accustomed, He used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths.

Jesus is not speaking of cannibalism here, but believing in Jesus Christ unto salvation, as He makes abundantly clear by repeating the same truths both in figurative and plain language.

Compare for example the following verses:

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

“He who believes” in Me is equivalent to “he who eats this bread” and the result is the same, eternal life.

The parallel is also seen in verses 40 and 54:

John 6:40 - Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6 does not support transubstantiation. On the contrary, it is a statement on the primacy of faith as the means by which we receive the grace of God. (Romans 5:1-2) Jesus is the Bread of Life; we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him unto salvation.

Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.

The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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In regard to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63) As Jesus was accustomed, He used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths.

Jesus is not speaking of cannibalism here, but believing in Jesus Christ unto salvation, as He makes abundantly clear by repeating the same truths both in figurative and plain language.

Compare for example the following verses:

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

“He who believes” in Me is equivalent to “he who eats this bread” and the result is the same, eternal life.

The parallel is also seen in verses 40 and 54:

John 6:40 - Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6 does not support transubstantiation. On the contrary, it is a statement on the primacy of faith as the means by which we receive the grace of God. (Romans 5:1-2) Jesus is the Bread of Life; we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him unto salvation.

Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.

The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.
Pick and choose all you want; bottom line remains "this is My body, this is My blood" for "the forgivness of sins". It is that simple.
 

ARBITER01

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Pick and choose all you want; bottom line remains "this is My body, this is My blood" for "the forgivness of sins". It is that simple.

That would be untrue.

This is My body, this is My blood,......... "do this in remembrance of Me."

Communion was never stated in scripture as being a salvation event that we need to keep redoing,..... sorry but that is church teaching, not scripture. Salvation, being born from above, is a one time event, we are not required to keep working at it, or proving our faith.
 
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RDKirk

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I recently spent time at a well-known prayer retreat where believers gather to seek healing, repentance, and a closer walk with God. It was there where I met a fellow believer whose passion for repentance and obedience was unmistakable. Later, during fellowship in my own home, that passion collided with conviction.

What followed was not a calm theological discussion, but a raised-voice argument — one that escalated into a painful exchange in front of his wife. It was ugly. I regret letting it reach that point.

The issue at the center of the conflict was baptism — and whether a person who has never been baptized can truly be saved.

That experience forced me to step back, not just to reexamine the theology, but to ask a more sobering question: What happens when deeply held beliefs about obedience begin to eclipse grace—and fracture fellowship in the process?

Christians across Evangelical traditions agree on this much: baptism matters. Jesus commanded it. The apostles practiced it. The Church has cherished it as a public declaration of faith and identification with Christ.

Continued below.
It depends on why they are not baptized.

Baptism is clearly extremely critical to many Christians. How critical is remaining unbaptized? Is there any benefit to resisting baptism?

This is akin to circumcision among the Jews in Paul's time. In the early years of Christianity, having a Jewish circumcision was still critical to many of the new Christians.

Paul recognized that the Holy Spirit had disestablished circumcision as critical for Christians, but he also recognized that being uncircumcised had no benefits to cling to when fellowship was at stake. So, Paul circumcised Timothy--not because he recognized circumcision as critical for salvation, but because in that particular situation, it was beneficial for fellowship because of the weakness of those believers.

"Everything is permissible to me, but not everything is beneficial."

I was sprinkled in my own childhood denomination. Years later, the Holy Spirit very definitely and clearly directed me to join a congregation that believed in immersion. They didn't apply force or pressure upon me to be re-baptized by immersion, but it was clear that I would not be fully joined to the congregation without it.

I prayed earnestly about whether I should stand firm on my sprinkling and resist immersion. I didn't believe the style of baptism made any difference. Then the Holy Spirit answered: "I directed you to join that congregation. Immersion is what they do."
 
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Valletta

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In regard to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63) As Jesus was accustomed, He used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths.
You're confusing the Body of Jesus Christ which he commanded the Apostles to eat, which He said was His true flesh, with things of "the flesh." Jesus was not saying that his True Body and His True flesh, the importance of which He had emphasized, profited nothing! Additionally, Jesus would not have let disciples abandon Him because they took him literally when he was supposedly speaking figuratively. They had even questioned Jesus, telling Him it was a "hard saying," and Jesus became more emphatic of the literal truth, changing the general Greek word for "to eat" to a specific one that means literally "gnaw" or "chew."
 
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BPPLEE

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Good question. If Jesus did it, should we not?
When I was a youth minister some of the kids said "What about the thief on the cross? He didn't get baptized."
I told them if they got themselves crucified we would make an exception
 
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ARBITER01

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When I was a youth minister some of the kids said "What about the thief on the cross? He didn't get baptized."
I told them if they got themselves crucified we would make an exception

lol
 
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concretecamper

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When I was a youth minister some of the kids said "What about the thief on the cross? He didn't get baptized."
I told them if they got themselves crucified we would make an exception
The thief was saved under the Old Covenant. Jesus had yet to die and rise to defeat death.
 
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RileyG

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Pick and choose all you want; bottom line remains "this is My body, this is My blood" for "the forgivness of sins". It is that simple.
Amen. It’s a sacred mystery. It’s true body and true blood.
 

MarkRohfrietsch

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That would be untrue.

This is My body, this is My blood,......... "do this in remembrance of Me."

Communion was never stated in scripture as being a salvation event that we need to keep redoing,..... sorry but that is church teaching, not scripture. Salvation, being born from above, is a one time event, we are not required to keep working at it, or proving our faith.
Like I said, pick and choose what you want, it is both, not one or the other. God is not limited in how many means of grace He provides for us.
 
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lismore

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The thief was saved under the Old Covenant. Jesus had yet to die and rise to defeat death.
Good morning! A better Covenant founded on better promises actually makes it harder to get saved? God Bless :)
 
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ViaCrucis

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Like I said, pick and choose what you want, it is both, not one or the other. God is not limited in how many means of grace He provides for us.

When we turn salvation into an off/on switch, rather than God's continuous self-offering of Himself to us as grace on the basis of Jesus and what Jesus has done; then it's a lot easier to think that being a Christian doesn't involve the right here and now.

As though what God declares to us, right now, in His word, in the reality of our baptism, in the Lord's Supper doesn't matter and we don't have to bother hearing it.

Why should I repent when I sin? I got saved 20 years ago.
Why should I believe the Gospel right now? I got saved 20 years ago.
Why should I care about the well-being of my neighbor? I got saved 20 years ago.
Why should I spend time in prayer, in reading and hearing the Scriptures, in carrying my cross, in being a disciple, in caring for others, in recognizing my own continual sinfulness and need for mercy every day? I got saved 20 years ago.

"I'm a sinner, not a saint" is despair and hopelessness.
"I'm a saint, not a sinner" is hubris and vanity.

Both are lies of the devil.
 
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ARBITER01

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Like I said, pick and choose what you want, it is both, not one or the other. God is not limited in how many means of grace He provides for us.

Sorry, but faith is not a work, it is a gift from GOD.

We don't work for salvation. Either you are born again from above or you are not. We are not working towards salvation or some form of unmerited favor by somehow trying to "re-present" Jesus each week as some form of salvation apart from faith.

It's not a debate. Either you're born again or you're not, there is no grey area to somehow backdoor the GOD established process in scripture.
 
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The Liturgist

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In regard to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life

On the contrary, these words do not contradict the prior sense of John ch. 6, but rather intensify it, by showing the fleshy reaction to the idea of partake of the Body and Blood of our Lord is to flee, but those who listened to God the Holy Spirit accepted these words, and thus received at the Last Supper the Body and Blood of our Lord, as stated in the synoptics and 1 Corinthians (both of which clearly declare the Eucharist to be his Body and Blood, and not mere symbols) - in this manner we become, to quote St. Peter, partakers of the divine nature.

The problem with your interpretation is that like Zwingli’s, it constitutes an eisegetical reading in opposition to the plain meaning of the text and is based on an a priori assumption that the Real Presence was some medieval Roman Catholic conspiracy, when we know from St. Justin Martyr and other ante-Nicene sources, including the ancient liturgical texts themselves but also every church father who spoke of the Eucharist, that this belief was normative (the only Roman Catholic, shall we say, flourish, being the application by Thomas Aquinas of Aristotelian categories).
 

The Liturgist

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"I'm a sinner, not a saint" is despair and hopelessness.
"I'm a saint, not a sinner" is hubris and vanity.

St. Silouan the Athonite stressed this point by saying every Christian must flee the belief that they have already attained holiness, and also the belief that they are beyond hope of salvation. The former error being arrogant and delusional, the latter a dangerous indulgence of sinful and destructive self-despair.
 

The Liturgist

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This is My body, this is My blood,......... "do this in remembrance of Me."

We addressed that. The word remembrance (which is not an ideal translation of the Greek anamnesis) does not contradict “this is my body” and “this is my blood”, and this point is stressed by the fact the latter phrase is absent from the institution narrative in Matthew and Mark and is applied only to the Body in Luke).

Essentially the Memorialist / Zwinglian exegesis requires our Lord to have permitted that he be solemnly quoted contradicting himself in half of the canonical descriptions of the Institution, while paradoxically permitting two of the canonical Gospels, those of, St. Matthew the Apostle and St. Mark the Evangelist, to omit such a vital clarification (which becomes unthinkable when we consider that early local churches were quite lucky to have access to one of these Gospels in their original form).

Martin Luther was not prepared to accept Zwingli’s argument at the Marburg Colloquy not merely because it contradicted all Patristic accounts of the Eucharist but also because it made no sense, in that it depends on hermeneutics where our Lord in some canonical texts contradicts himself (or at the very least, spectacularly walks back the initial claim, which we actually do not see him do elsewhere - when our Lord shows the spiritual truth inside a parable it is always an exposition, never a contradiction, never a case where our Lord says something about Himself which is actually objectively false).

And that the phrase Zwinglianism and Memorialism rely on for their interpretation of the Institution Narrative is missing from 50% of all institution narratives including 2/3rds of those in the synoptic Gospels, and being missing from the Blood even in St. Luke, is enormously problematic to such an interpretation.
 

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Jesus is not speaking of cannibalism here

Neither are we. It is not cannibalism for our Lord to feed us His body and blood, since having risen from the dead in a glorified form, and being fully God and fully man, without change, confusion, separation, or division, he can supply as much of Himself to us as we require, and indeed He already sacrificed Himself entirely on the Cross.

Rather what happens from anamnesis is that we become present at the Last Supper and participate in the one Eucharist together with the Holy Apostles and all Christians, which is why the sacrament is called Holy Communion.

Likewise with baptism, which is a participation with our Lord in the waters of the Jordan and the receipt of the Holy Spirit. He was baptized so that we could be baptized and receive the Spirit.

As for your argument that “water” does not refer to baptism, that argument can be dismissed on the basis of context.
 

MarkRohfrietsch

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Sorry, but faith is not a work, it is a gift from GOD.

We don't work for salvation. Either you are born again from above or you are not. We are not working towards salvation or some form of unmerited favor by somehow trying to "re-present" Jesus each week as some form of salvation apart from faith.

It's not a debate. Either you're born again or you're not, there is no grey area to somehow backdoor the GOD established process in scripture.
You are right, we are justified by faith.

Sanctification on the other hand is a life long process.

And, we do not "re-present" Jesus in the celebration of the Eucharist; rather, Jesus presents Himself eternally to us in the Eucharist. The means of grace, the Holy Eucharist, Holy Absolution, Holy Baptism are gifts that are given to aid in our sanctification, so are our actions regarding to how we live and manifest our faith in the world.

I am not as confident in myself as you are which is why I can not sit back and count on that once saved always saved is good enough.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Pick and choose all you want; bottom line remains "this is My body, this is My blood" for "the forgivness of sins". It is that simple.
The Words of Institution are considered a synecdoche. The part...the bread is substituted for the whole of Christ's body. Not complex.

Most American Evangelicals hold to the "real absence." When Christ said this is my body....what he meant to say is "This is not my body."
 
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