Two requests for the Sabbaterians at CF

Studyman · Friday at 8:32 PM

Hentenza said:
Then post evidence that anyone kept the sabbath before Moses. You are adamant that the sabbath was kept from creation so there must be some evidence to that effect.

Why? Why must God follow your directive as to when HE chooses to have His Commandments, ?Judgments and Statutes written down?

Can you post evidence that anyone kept God's Commandment "Thou shall not steal". Will you then say that the Commandment didn't exist because God didn't have it written down until the Exodus? Will you then use that as justification for breaking the Commandment?

Men are free to promote any religious philosophy they want. You want to promote a God that makes stuff up as HE goes along, you are free to do so. But your argument that God's Laws, Statutes and Judgments didn't exist before the Exodus, because they weren't written down before the Exodus, is an unprovable doctrine that demeans Jesus as not knowing what HE was talking about. Will you then accuse Jesus of promoting a falsehood, and tell Him to His face that God's Sabbath was not made for Abraham, or Noah or their children? That God's Law defining sin was different for Abraham than it was for Abraham's grandchildren? And where is your evidence for any of this? That God didn't write His Judgments, Commandments and Statutes down until the Exodus and that proves they didn't exist before Exodus??

What if God is telling the truth to the Son's of Jacob. "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed".

God said HE sanctified and made Holy the 7th Day of the week at creation. Colossians 1 says it was the Christ who created all things, including the 7 day week, and 7th day Sabbath. He said is was created "For man". But you are trying to convince others that Abraham, Noah, Joseph Sodom, and the entire world were excluded from Christ's declaration. And you have nothing to support your teaching over that of the Lord's Christ.

Studyman · Friday at 8:35 PM

HARK! said:
It is fascinating.; but what elevates this to puzzling, is that the whole world recognizes a 7 day week. 7...what an odd number...

Religious men, "who profess to know God" have been despising and polluting God's Sabbaths for a very long time. I think we have all been placed by God in a world in which these philosophies exist. Jesus sure was, and Ezekiel too. And look around today. Truly there is no new thing under the sun.

HARK! · Friday at 8:41 PM

Studyman said:
But your argument that God's Laws, Statutes and Judgments didn't exist before the Exodus, because they weren't written down before the Exodus, is an unprovable doctrine

Actually it contradicts Yah himself; but then again Moses hadn't written this down when Abraham walked the earth; so maybe it doesn't apply to Abraham?

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

Hentenza · Friday at 8:52 PM

Studyman said:
Why?

Because evidence is necessary to prove your assertion. Because an argument from silence is no argument at all.

Studyman said:
Why must God follow your directive as to when HE chooses to have His Commandments, ?

Why must God follow yours?

Studyman said:
Judgments and Statutes written down?

Can you post evidence that anyone kept God's Commandment "Thou shall not steal". Will you then say that the Commandment didn't exist because God didn't have it written down until the Exodus? Will you then use that as justification for breaking the Commandment?

Gen. 31:30, 44:4-8

Studyman said:
Men are free to promote any religious philosophy they want. You want to promote a God that makes stuff up as HE goes along, you are free to do so. But your argument that God's Laws, Statutes and Judgments didn't exist before the Exodus, because they weren't written down before the Exodus, is an unprovable doctrine that demeans Jesus as not knowing what HE was talking about. Will you then accuse Jesus of promoting a falsehood, and tell Him to His face that God's Sabbath was not made for Abraham, or Noah or their children? That God's Law defining sin was different for Abraham than it was for Abraham's grandchildren? And where is your evidence for any of this? That God didn't write His Judgments, Commandments and Statutes down until the Exodus and that proves they didn't exist before Exodus??

What if God is telling the truth to the Son's of Jacob. "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed".

God said HE sanctified and made Holy the 7th Day of the week at creation. Colossians 1 says it was the Christ who created all things, including the 7 day week, and 7th day Sabbath. He said is was created "For man". But you are trying to convince others that Abraham, Noah, Joseph Sodom, and the entire world were excluded from Christ's declaration. And you have nothing to support your teaching over that of the Lord's Christ.

And yet you still can even show one simple instance of anyone keeping the sabbath before Moses.

Hentenza · Friday at 8:54 PM

HARK! said:
I did in the first response to your thread, or do you reject that Yah is a person?

God in three persons....blessed Trinity

Should we strike that song from the hymnals?

Nah. Already answered. Your opinion is not evidence.

HARK! · Friday at 9:06 PM

Hentenza said:
Nah. Already answered.

I see no evidence of that.

Hentenza said:
Your opinion is not evidence.

Nor is yours.

person

noun

5
Christianity
a
: one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead

Definition of PERSON

human, individual —sometimes used in combination to avoid man in compounds applicable to anyone; a person who likes or enjoys a specified thing; the personality of a human being : self… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Hentenza · Friday at 9:22 PM

HARK! said:
Colossians 2:16

(CLV) Col 2:16
Let no one, then, be judging you in food or in drink or in the particulars of a festival, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,

Colossae is in Southwest Turkey. It's over a 800 mile walk from Jerusalem. There wasn't a strong Jewish presence there, judging the Pagans for eating what Pagans eat, nor drinking what Pagans drink, nor for observing their Pagan holidays.

Let's back up to verse 8.

(CLV) Col 2:8
Beware that no one shall be despoiling you through philosophy and empty seduction, in accord with human tradition, in accord with the elements of the world, and not in accord with Christ,

None of what is bolded has anything to do with following Torah.

Messiah wouldn't be taking part in Pagan holidays. He wouldn't be eating pigs sacrificed to Tammuz. He wouldn't be drinking blood.

Messiah would keep YHWH's appointed times and Sabbaths, even as Paul did, long after Yahshua had ascended.

(CLV) Col 2:21
"You should not be touching, nor yet tasting, nor yet coming into contact,"

(CLV) Col 2:22
(which things are all for corruption from use), in accord with the directions and teachings of men?

YHWH outlined in Leviticus what was given to us for food.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

When a believer begins following Paul; as Paul followed Yahshua; as Yahshua followed the Torah; he becomes subjected to pressure from his friends and family, to drag him back into his old ways.

I gave up pork when I was 16. Every time I would visit my grandmother; it was pork, no matter what the meal.
This battle lasted until I was in my mid 30's, after her daughter, my mother, died.

There was resistance when I stopped bringing trees into my home.

(CLV) Jer 10:2
Thus says Yahweh: The way of the nations, do not learn, And by the signs of the heavens, do not be dismayed, Though the nations are being dismayed by them.
(CLV) Jer 10:3
Indeed concerning the statutes of the peoples, it all is vanity, For one cuts it down, a tree from the wildwood, The work of an artificer's hands with an adz;
(CLV) Jer 10:4
With silver and with gold he makes it lovely; With nails and with hammers they fasten it, so that it cannot quaver.

When I stopped celebrating that winter solstice holiday; the resistance continued to intensify.

There is evidence that there was also a strong Gnostic community in Colossae.

(CLV) Col 2:21
"You should not be touching, nor yet tasting, nor yet coming into contact,"

(CLV) Col 2:22
(which things are all for corruption from use), in accord with the directions and teachings of men?—

(CLV) Col 2:23
which are (having, indeed, an expression of wisdom in a willful ritual and humility and asceticism) not of any value toward the surfeiting of the flesh.

Is this about Gnosticism, or is this about avoiding the abominable? One thing that's clear is that the YHWH's Torah does not fall under the directions and teachings of men.

Let's move to the next verse.

(CLV) Col 2:17
which are a shadow of those things which are impending—yet the body is the Christ's.

Here Paul explains that YHWH's Sabbath, and his Moedim (feasts), are a shadow of what is to come; and that the shadow is of Messiah.

Messiah was executed on Passover, without leaven, to begin the Moed of Unleavened Bread. He was risen on First Fruits. He brought us the Ruach Ha'Kodesh on Pentecost, that the Torah may be written on our hearts.

His first coming was connected with the Spring Moedim. His second coming may be connected to the Fall Moedim.

He will return on the final trump. This may be associated with the Feast of Trumpets. He will judge the world. This may be associated with the Day of Atonement. The Feast of Tabernacles may be associated with the wedding feast.

YHWH's moedim are appointements with the Father, and rehearsals.

Paul was encouraging the new converts not to let their Pagan and Gnostic, friends and family, judge them; as they walked near, in the shadow of Messiah, keeping in stride with YHWH's perfect Torah.

Done.

Don’t forget the verses that you ignored. There was indeed gnostism but much more that just that. The heresy addressed appears to be either a Jewish-Gnosticism or a mix between Jewish asceticism and Greek (Stoic?) philosophy.

“See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, rather than in accordance with Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over every ruler and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings,”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Colossians 2:8-13 (NASB2020) - See to it that there is no one who | YouVersion

See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, rather than i

bible.com

Paul is disputing the “Jewish” emphasis on circumcision and traditions along with a defective view of Christ.

In verses 16-23 Paul advises against strict adherence to dietary laws, festivals, or Sabbath rituals, calling them mere "shadows" of the reality found in Christ. He cautions against angel worship and harsh, ascetic practices that seem wise but do not truly stop self-indulgence.

This chapter is not just about the pagan and gnostic influences but also about the Jewish constant imposing of legalism on the Christian even after the council of Jerusalem decreed against it.

Hentenza · Friday at 9:25 PM

HARK! said:
I see no evidence of that.

Nor is yours.

person

noun

5
Christianity
a
: one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead

Definition of PERSON

human, individual —sometimes used in combination to avoid man in compounds applicable to anyone; a person who likes or enjoys a specified thing; the personality of a human being : self… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Look, you are yet to show anyone keeping the sabbath before Moses. You keep deflecting this fact by posts like these. Still waiting for your evidence.

HARK! · Friday at 9:31 PM

Studyman said:
Christ

Bringing Yahshua into the discussion, gave me a new perspective.

I had already mentioned Yah's word is eternal in this thread:

(CLV) Ps 119:89
For the eon (לעולם), O Yahweh, Your word is stationed in the heavens.

However, I hadn't connected that directly to Yahshua.

In the beginning was the word.

(CLV) Jn 14:6
Jesus is saying to him, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me.

========================================
THE WAY
========================================

(CLV) Ex 18:20
You will warn them with the statutes and the laws and make known to them the way in which they shall go and the deeds which they shall do.

(CLV) Dt 10:12
And now, Israel, what is Yahweh your Elohim asking of you, save to fear Yahweh your Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love Him and to serve Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul,

(CLV) Jos 22:5
But observe meticulously to keep the instruction and the law that Moses the servant of Yahweh enjoined on you: to love Yahweh your Elohim and to walk in all His ways, to observe His instructions, to cling to Him and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

(CLV) 1Ki 2:3
You will keep the charge of Yahweh your Elohim to walk in His ways, to observe His statutes and His instructions, His ordinances and His testimonies as written in the law of Moses, so that you may act intelligently in all that you do and everywhere that you turn around,

(CLV) Ps 119:1
Happy are those whose way is flawless, Who are walking in the law of Yahweh.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Mal 2:8
Yet you withdraw from the way. You cause many to stumble at the law. You ruin the covenant of Levi, says Yahweh of hosts.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

========================================
THE TRUTH
========================================

(CLV) Ps 119:142
Your righteousness is eonian righteousness, And Your law is truth.

(CLV) Mal 2:6
The law of truth, it came to be in his mouth, and iniquity, it was not found on his lips. In peace and in uprightness he walked with Me, and turned many back from depravity.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ro 2:20
a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.

========================================
THE LIFE
========================================

(CLV) Jb 33:30
To restore his soul from the pit, To enlighten him with the light of the living.

(CLV) Ps 36:9
For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light shall we see light.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life

=======================================
THE LIGHT
=======================================

(CLV) Jn 8:12
Again, then, Jesus speaks to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world. He who is following Me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life."

(CLV) Jb 24:13
They are among those revolting against the light; They neither recognize its ways Nor dwell in its tracks.

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 51:4
Attend to Me, My people, And, My folk, give ear to Me! For a law shall go forth from Me, And My judgment for a light of the peoples.

(CLV) 2Co 6:14
Do not become diversely yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? Or what communion has light with darkness?

(CLV) 1Jn 1:7
Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin.

========================================
THE WORD
========================================

(CLV) Jn 1:14
And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.

Yahshua is the living Torah!

If we walk in his ways; we walk in the Torah.

Hallelu YAH!

HARK! · Friday at 9:36 PM

Hentenza said:
Look, you are yet to show anyone keeping the sabbath before Moses.

Hear, O Israel, the L-rd is our G‑d, the L-rd is One.

HARK! · Friday at 9:41 PM

Hentenza said:
“See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world,

Yah's Shabbat is not philosophy.

Yah's Shabbat is not empty deception.

Yah's Shabbat is not human tradition.

Yah's Shabbat is not the elementary principles of the world.

Again context.

Hentenza · Friday at 9:50 PM

HARK! said:
Yah's Shabbat is not philosophy.

Yah's Shabbat is not empty deception.

Yah's Shabbat is not human tradition.

Yah's Shabbat is not the elementary principles of the world.

Again context.

And yet you can’t show anyone keeping the sabbath before Moses. Did Adam keep the sabbath? Did any of the immediate descendants of Adam keep the sabbath? Did Noah keep the sabbath? Did any of the immediate descendants of Noah keep the sabbath? Did Abraham keep the sabbath?

Yes, context.

HARK! · Friday at 10:13 PM

Hentenza said:
And yet you can’t show anyone keeping the sabbath before Moses. Did Adam keep the sabbath? Did any of the immediate descendants of Adam keep the sabbath? Did Noah keep the sabbath? Did any of the immediate descendants of Noah keep the sabbath? Did Abraham keep the sabbath?

Yes, context.

I have proven that Yah kept the Sabbath, from the beginning, ad nauseam. Saying that I haven't shown that is simply not true. Just because you might not have seen it; doesn't mean that I didn't show it; but it's there for all to see.

I don't believe for a second that Yah let Adam roam around in lawlessness, in his presence, in the garden, as Yah kept the Sabbath.

Do you believe that?

Hentenza · Friday at 10:23 PM

HARK! said:
I have proven that Yah kept the Sabbath, from the beginning, ad nauseam. Saying that I haven't shown that is simply not true. Just because you might not have seen it; doesn't mean that I didn't show it; but it's there for all to see.

Post #? Empty claim there for all to see.

HARK! said:
I don't believe for a second that Yah let Adam roam around in lawlessness, in his presence, in the garden, as Yah kept the Sabbath.

Do you believe that?

You continue your argument from silence. Show evidence where Adam kept the sabbath. Show evidence that any of Adam’s immediate descendants kept the sabbath. How about Noah? How about Noah’s immediate descendants? How about Abraham? What you think happened is just opinion without evidence.

HARK! · Friday at 10:28 PM

Hentenza said:
Post #?

#2

We've been over this ad nauseam.

HARK! · Friday at 10:32 PM

Hentenza said:
You continue your argument from silence. Show evidence where Adam kept the sabbath. Show evidence that any of Adam’s immediate descendants kept the sabbath. How about Noah? How about Noah’s immediate descendants? How about Abraham? What you think happened is just opinion without evidence.

You didn't answer my question. Are you acquiescing through silence?

I don't need to show you that Adam kept it. I already showed you that Yah kept it. That answers your initial question.

If you don't like that answer; it still answers your question.

I already shown you that Cain knew a torah from the Decalogue; but you can't show me where Yah had yet told Moses to write it down. I have already shown you that Abimelech knew a torah from the Decalogue before before Moses wrote it down. What makes you think that the 4th torah of the Decalogue did yet apply; even though Yah himself was keeping it?

Hentenza · Friday at 10:41 PM

HARK! said:
#2

We've been over this ad nauseam.

Where? Who? Which person in your post number 2 kept the sabbath before Moses?

Hentenza · Friday at 10:44 PM

HARK! said:
You didn't answer my question. Are you acquiescing through silence?

I don't need to show you that Adam kept it.

Actually you do need to provide evidence that Adam kept it otherwise is just opinion.

HARK! said:
I already showed you that Yah kept it. That answers your initial question.

If you don't like that answer; it still answers your question.

Again, who kept the sabbath before Moses? Where is the factual evidence?

ETA: So it is your argument that God rested on the seventh day and therefore everyone else did? Are you serious? So then why doesn’t scripture show anyone else keeping the sabbath? If it was that important you would think that there would be many examples.

HARK! · Friday at 10:55 PM

Hentenza said:
Where? Who? Which person in your post number 2 kept the sabbath before Moses?

Yah

(CLV) Gn 2:3
And Elohim blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, for in it He ceased from all His work that Elohim had created by making it.

The Shabbat has been holy from the beginning.

Hentenza said:
Actually you do need to provide evidence that Adam kept it otherwise is just opinion.

I see that you doubled down on avoiding answering my question.

Hentenza said:
Again, who kept the sabbath before Moses? Where is the factual evidence?

Yah

(CLV) Gn 2:3
And Elohim blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, for in it He ceased from all His work that Elohim had created by making it.

HARK! · Friday at 10:58 PM

I noticed that I didn't get a response here either:

HARK! said:
Surely you aren't saying that the Christian church is not in covenant.

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Two requests for the Sabbaterians at CF

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

שמע

I will fear no evil for You are with me

I will fear no evil for You are with me

שמע

person​

noun​

I will fear no evil for You are with me

I will fear no evil for You are with me

person​

noun​

שמע

שמע

שמע

I will fear no evil for You are with me

שמע

I will fear no evil for You are with me

שמע

שמע

I will fear no evil for You are with me

I will fear no evil for You are with me

שמע

שמע

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