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Can a faithful Christian be damned for not being baptized?

ARBITER01

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Thus, while the question of the identity and nature and extent of the Church is disputed, that it IS the Body of Christ is incontrovertible, because the Holy Apostle Paul made this point expressly (and linked it to the reception of the Body and Blood of Christ, in 1 Corinthians,

He linked it to 1 Corinthians, but not the section that you are referring to,...


1Co 12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all immersed into one body; whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free; and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

1Co 12:14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
 
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The Liturgist

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He linked it to 1 Corinthians, but not the section that you are referring to,...


1Co 12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all immersed into one body; whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free; and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

1Co 12:14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

I was referring to both 1 Corinthians and 11 Corinthians, for these represent a continuous narrative (there’s also more of that in the middle).
 
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Dan Perez

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and Paul reminds us that we are BAPTIZED into one Body. You can't get around it.
And if you are quoting 1 COR 12:13. HOW ARE WE BAPTIZED into ONE // HEIS BODY ??

Are you saying BAPTIZED with WATER // HYDOR AS WATER IS not in. the GREEK TEXT. !!

dan p
 
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ARBITER01

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I was referring to both 1 Corinthians and 11 Corinthians, for these represent a continuous narrative (there’s also more of that in the middle).

We would have a disagreement.

11 Corinthians, which I assume you are talking about the section on communion, has nothing to do with adding anyone to the body of Christ. Communion itself, is not a salvation event, it is fellowship with Jesus, a remembrance of Him and what He did for us at the cross, as spoken by The Lord Himself in that chapter of scripture.

We are not to be doing that for the purpose of expecting/receiving something in the process. Again, it is a remembrance of Him and what He did for us.
 
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Danthemailman

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Baptism is like a wedding ring. It symbolizes the salvation experience and makes it public.
You would still be married without the wedding band but who wants that?
A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the wedding ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents - "with this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.
 
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ARBITER01

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A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the wedding ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents - "with this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

I like that. I copied it down in my notes.
 
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RileyG

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Baptism is like a wedding ring. It symbolizes the salvation experience and makes it public.
You would still be married without the wedding band but who wants that?
Interesting, I think in many Arabic cultures men don’t wear wedding rings because men don’t wear jewelry.

I don’t know of any Christian denomination that forbids the wedding ring. It’s almost universal in Christianity (and Judaism) as well in secular cultures.
 
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RileyG

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A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the wedding ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents - "with this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.
I would argue water baptism does something. It’s not the mere water that does it, but God acting through the sacrament.

Consummation of the marriage is what completes the marriage and in many Churches and secular laws, it’s required for the marriage to be binding.
 
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The Liturgist

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Communion itself, is not a salvation event, it is fellowship with Jesus,

Fellowship with Jesus is, firstly, salvatory, and secondly, John ch. 6 expressly declares that eating the Body and Blood of our Lord is a requirement for salvation. (John 6:53-66; this statement was, it turns out, almost as unpopular among the followers of our Lord in 33 AD as it is now, with libraries of books having been written since the 16th century in an attempt to deny that Christ our God meant what he said in chapter 6 literally, as is reflected in 1 Corinthians 11 and in the synoptic Institution Narratives).

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the wedding ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents - "with this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

None of that is true outside of the Roman Rite and its various Western Protestant derivatives. In most of the ancient Christian liturgies, the bride and groom do not perform the sacrament of Holy Matrimony on each other, but are united into one flesh by being crowned and drinking of a common chalice by the Bishop or Presbyter. For this reason the liturgy of Matrimony and the Byzantine and Slavic Coronation liturgy (which was the same whether in Constantinople, Belgrade, Moscow, Sofia or Bucharest) is almost identical, and in all the Eastern churches the sacrament of Holy Matrimony is referred to as Crowning.

However, liturgical parallels aside, Zwinglianism also collapses under the weight of the same scripture Martin Luther properly carved into the table at the Marburg Colloquy around 500 years ago, as our Lutheran friends @ViaCrucis @Ain't Zwinglian and @MarkRohfrietsch will confirm - HOC EST CORPUS MEUM.

”THIS IS MY BODY.”

Not, “This is a symbol of my body,” or “This is a memorial of my body“ or “This will become my body when you receive it in your mouth” but “This is my body,” present tense, and “This is my blood.”

And the word translated as remembrance in the original Greek is Anamnesis, which has a more complex meaning, akin to recapitulation - for it is the belief of traditional Christians who believe in the real presence that we are participating in the Lord’s Supper with Christ our God.

It should also be noted that the reason why we usually practice closed or semi-closed communion (at a minimum limiting participation to the baptized in all but the most liberal of Anglican parishes, and in Orthodox and Lutheran parishes admitting only those whose membership in the Church is certain for our clergy, who will have to offer an account), is found in 1 Corinthians 11:27-34; since it is the body and blood of our Lord, we do not want to partake of it unworthily, and be among those ill or reposed St. Paul warns us of.

Thus, there is a Scriptural imperative for the Real Presence and partaking the Eucharist to receive Salvation, and to reject Zwinglianism, but since in Orthodoxy we are not Sola Scriptura, the weight of tradition also applies and when we examine the liturgical history of the Christian church, well, the interesting fact is that all ancient liturgies have a text called the Epiklesis, except for the Roman Canon (but it has equivalent features) which requests the Holy Spirit to descend and change the elements of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ our God. Indeed, I cannot tell you of any which lack this feature in some form, for prior to the Restoration, they did not exist; the closest would be the Roman Canon, but since obviously the Roman Catholics believe in the Real Presence and the Real Change that also doesn’t change anything from a historical perspective; there is no evidence of a systemic lack of belief in the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist being common among Christians until the Calvinist, Zwinglian and Anglican churches, although the Calvinists at least admitted a spiritual presence (some say Theodore of Mopsuestia denied the reality of the physical presence, but this is not true, for (a) he wrote a liturgy with a very strong Epiklesis and (b) expressed the interesting belief that the Prothesis, that is, the traditional liturgy of preparation that is the common patrimony of all the ancient Eastern chuches - Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Church of the East, inaccurately called the Nestorians, although only the latter venerates Theodore as a saint for Nestorius used aspects of his theology to reinforce the Nestorian heresy, well Theodore taught that the Prothesis changes the bread and wine into the crucified body and blood of Christ and then the Epiclesis causes them to become the resurrected Body and Blood of our Lord, which is interesting; not doctrinal even in the Church of the East which venerates him since its a bit odd, but definitely not a denial of the real presence, but rather, it represents the most eccentric view on the Eucharist one would find in any church prior to the 16th century.

Indeed, the main gripe of the Proto-protestant retro-Orthodox Moravians led by St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, who are venerated by the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia as martyrs, was the lack of communion in both kinds for the laity and the lack of a vernacular liturgy, which the Czechs and Slovaks had enjoyed before they were conquered and forcibly placed under Roman clergy by the Austrians in 1200 AD ( about 5 years before the evil and decadent Venetian Republic redirected the Fourth Crusade from the Holy Land to Constantinople).
 
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The Liturgist

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Interesting, I think in many Arabic cultures men don’t wear wedding rings because men don’t wear jewelry.

I don’t know of any Christian denomination that forbids the wedding ring. It’s almost universal in Christianity (and Judaism) as well in secular cultures.

I’m sure we could find some small denomination or sect on the fringes, probably anti-Nicene who claims its some kind of Roman Catholic conspiracy which is doubtless said to be idolatrous and to be descended from some alleged Pagan ritual of which there exists no actual documentary or allegorical evidence.

Consider J/Ws are so anti-Catholic that they reject the idea of the Cross, and go so far as to claim that the Bible was misinterpreted and that our Lord was executed via a ”torture stake.”
 
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ARBITER01

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Fellowship with Jesus is, firstly, salvatory, and secondly, John ch. 6 expressly declares that eating the Body and Blood of our Lord is a requirement for salvation. (John 6:53-66; this statement was, it turns out, almost as unpopular among the followers of our Lord in 33 AD as it is now, with libraries of books having been written since the 16th century in an attempt to deny that Christ our God meant what he said in chapter 6 literally, as is reflected in 1 Corinthians 11 and in the synoptic Institution Narratives).

As I said, we have disagreement.

Salvation is by faith, not by our works. Jesus never said that we are to do communion to earn and keep salvation, He said that we are do it "in remembrance of Me" in scripture.

This is why I said that church teachings are a big culprit of confusion.
 
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Dan Perez

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I was referring to both 1 Corinthians and 11 Corinthians, for these represent a continuous narrative (there’s also more of that in the middle).
And 1 COR 12:13 does not say. IMMERSED. and the Greek. Text says BAPTIZED // BAPTIZO. and. there is Greek.

WORD. called IMMERSED !!

dan p
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the wedding ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents - "with this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.
This is correct. About thirty years ago I had a friend who was single and every time he went through a job interview, he bought a wedding ring, and brought it back for redemption after the interview. I don't know it if worked or not, but I don't think it hurt his prospects. It is the vow and witnesses that unite husband and wife not the ring.
 
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Valletta

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A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the wedding ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents - "with this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.
"And for what reason, says one, if the laver take away all our sins, is it called, not a laver of remission of sins, nor a laver of cleansing, but a laver of regeneration? Because it does not simply take away our sins, nor simply cleanse us from our faults, but so as if we were born again. For it creates and fashions us anew not forming us again out of earth, but creating us out of another element, namely, of the nature of water. For it does not simply wipe the vessel clean, but entirely remoulds it again. For that which is wiped clean, even if it be cleaned with care, has traces of its former condition, and bears the remains of its defilement, but that which falls into the new mould, and is renewed by means of the flames, laying aside all uncleanness, comes forth from the furnace, and sends forth the same brilliancy with things newly formed. As therefore any one who takes and recasts a golden statue which has been tarnished by time, smoke, dust, rust, restores it to us thoroughly cleansed and glistening: so too this nature of ours, rusted with the rust of sin, and having gathered much smoke from our faults, and having lost its beauty, which He had from the beginning bestowed upon it from himself, God has taken and cast anew, and throwing it into the waters as into a mould, and instead of fire sending forth the grace of the Spirit, then brings us forth with much brightness, renewed, and made afresh, to rival the beams of the sun, having crushed the old man, and having fashioned a new man, more brilliant than the former." Instructions to Catechumens, circa 390 A.D.(St. John Chrysostom)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I’m sure we could find some small denomination or sect on the fringes, probably anti-Nicene who claims its some kind of Roman Catholic conspiracy which is doubtless said to be idolatrous and to be descended from some alleged Pagan ritual of which there exists no actual documentary or allegorical evidence.

Consider J/Ws are so anti-Catholic that they reject the idea of the Cross, and go so far as to claim that the Bible was misinterpreted and that our Lord was executed via a ”torture stake.”
Stricter forms of anabaptists wear no rings, no jewlery of any kind. Some wear no buttons, but use hooks. The Amish will not wear a wrist watch, still carrying pocket watches.
 
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Danthemailman

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"And for what reason, says one, if the laver take away all our sins, is it called, not a laver of remission of sins, nor a laver of cleansing, but a laver of regeneration? Because it does not simply take away our sins, nor simply cleanse us from our faults, but so as if we were born again. For it creates and fashions us anew not forming us again out of earth, but creating us out of another element, namely, of the nature of water. For it does not simply wipe the vessel clean, but entirely remoulds it again. For that which is wiped clean, even if it be cleaned with care, has traces of its former condition, and bears the remains of its defilement, but that which falls into the new mould, and is renewed by means of the flames, laying aside all uncleanness, comes forth from the furnace, and sends forth the same brilliancy with things newly formed. As therefore any one who takes and recasts a golden statue which has been tarnished by time, smoke, dust, rust, restores it to us thoroughly cleansed and glistening: so too this nature of ours, rusted with the rust of sin, and having gathered much smoke from our faults, and having lost its beauty, which He had from the beginning bestowed upon it from himself, God has taken and cast anew, and throwing it into the waters as into a mould, and instead of fire sending forth the grace of the Spirit, then brings us forth with much brightness, renewed, and made afresh, to rival the beams of the sun, having crushed the old man, and having fashioned a new man, more brilliant than the former." Instructions to Catechumens, circa 390 A.D.(St. John Chrysostom)
The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." This concept is supported by Ephesians 5:26 - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. This is "signified" but not procured in the waters of baptism. The purification of the soul is accomplished by the Word of God through the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Also see John 15:3 - you are already clean because of the word. 1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Plain H20 has no power to cleanse the heart from sin and regenerate the new believer. As for water that does cleanse the heart (living water) see John 4:10,14; 7:37-39.
 
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Valletta

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. Plain H20 has no power to cleanse the heart from sin and regenerate the new believer. As for water that does cleanse the heart (living water) see John 4:10,14; 7:37-39.
God has all power. Water is an instrument used by God in Baptism. Jesus told the blind man to wash in the Pool of Siloam. So too the water was an instrument, it was Jesus that made him see. Clement of Alexandria said:

"When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal . . . ‘and sons of the Most High’ [Ps. 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation” (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1 [A.D. 191)."
 
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This is correct. About thirty years ago I had a friend who was single and every time he went through a job interview, he bought a wedding ring, and brought it back for redemption after the interview. I don't know it if worked or not, but I don't think it hurt his prospects. It is the vow and witnesses that unite husband and wife not the ring.

In Orthodox sacramental theology the marriage is conferred on the couple through the prayers of the bishop or celebrant, which I regard as very proper, since it is God who unites the man and woman according to Christ (“What God hath brought together, let no man put asunder”) and thus having the union performed on the couple by a bishop or presbyter in persone Christi also creates the basis for us to canonically penance the spouses whose actions lead to a divorce (in more traditional Orthodox churches such as ROCOR or the Church of Serbia, an ecclesiastical court determines the guilty party in a divorce and applies appropriate penances such as exclusion from the Eucharist and so on; in mid traditional churches like Antioch and parts of the OCA, or the semi-liberal such as the bulk of the OCA and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America such courts do not function, and that’s probably why most single women converting join the more traditional churches, because if things do go awry and they marry someone who is unfaithful or abusive the hierarchy exists to protect even where the actual government may fall short.)
 
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Danthemailman

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What about John 3:3-5? Or Mark 16:16?
In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" and NOT born of baptism and the Spirit. Now some would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels water with being born out of a mother’s womb and with flesh based on the answer of Nicodemus to Jesus. Simply stated in that case, two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth accompanied by amniotic "water" and the second is Spirit.

Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and connects it with eternal life and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. Now if "water" is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If that sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

We also see that "water" is used in the Scripture as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned." If he who believes shall be saved, then he who believes and is baptized shall be saved as well.

If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions NINE different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
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