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Jim Banks Calls for Passage of SAVE America Act to Require Proof of Citizenship to Vote

Stopped_lurking

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I'm okay with taking the money aspect of it and providing subsidizing where needed if that's what it takes to have guardrails that are more robust than a mail-in/ID-free "scout's honor" system like we have now in several states.
Good, just don't vote for anyone not including that as part of the bill.

One could also argue that it should be likely that the act is actually solving any problem, before spending any money. Can't you just tally up how many who have two votes registered on the electoral rolls and make sure that is the one left in a voting booth that is counted?
 
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Valletta

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Good, just don't vote for anyone not including that as part of the bill.

One could also argue that it should be likely that the act is actually solving any problem, before spending any money. Can't you just tally up how many who have two votes registered on the electoral rolls and make sure that is the one left in a voting booth that is counted?
The security of elections has been studied and the issues publicly discussed, the American people overwhelmingly back voter ID. It's a lot different than the Democrats' pass a bill and read it later.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Good, just don't vote for anyone not including that as part of the bill.

One could also argue that it should be likely that the act is actually solving any problem, before spending any money. Can't you just tally up how many who have two votes registered on the electoral rolls and make sure that is the one left in a voting booth that is counted?

I don't think double-voting is the crux of the concern (at least not the crux of my concern). While they have found instances of that, those are already a little easier to catch -- like when they've audited after the fact and found some instances of people voting in both NY and FL.


The bigger concern I have are scenarios like
A) the schemes that were uncovered in Connecticut and Mississippi, where people were found to have been "helping fill out" mail-in ballots for "potentially senile"--shall we say, seniors in in-home care and assisted-living situations.

B) The kind of stuff that got discovered in Michigan, involving tampering with unrequested mail-in ballots that were either made out to the prior residents, or accidentally delivered to the wrong mailbox (which can be a common occurrence in apartment complexes)

C) Things like the Minnesota case where a couple was found to have done nearly 500 bogus voter registrations over a period of 2 years.


I think some of my concerns would be mitigated if some of the states that engage in the practice, would stop sending unrequested mail-in ballots.
Though all states offer some form of voting by mail, nine states and Washington, D.C., now mandate that every voter be mailed a ballot ahead of an election by default. Last year was the first time that California, Vermont and the nation’s capital began the practice.

Literally mailing every person a ballot (when many are planning to vote in-person) creates unnecessary risk.


Not to mention, just in terms of practical logic, the practice of allowing early mail-in voting up to 30-45 days early isn't intuitive for a few other reasons unrelated to fraud. -- especially if we're going to keep insisting on running presidential and senate candidates that are nearing 80 years old.

Imagine, I mail in a ballot for candidate "Joe Shmedley" 45 days early and he's 83 years old. He has a heart attack and keels over 10 days later and my party puts up another candidate in his place. There's not really a provision for a mulligan that I'm aware of.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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The security of elections has been studied and the issues publicly discussed, the American people overwhelmingly back voter ID. It's a lot different than the Democrats' pass a bill and read it later.
Do you have any of those studies so that I can read them?
 
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Stopped_lurking

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I don't think double-voting is the crux of the concern (at least not the crux of my concern). While they have found instances of that, those are already a little easier to catch -- like when they've audited after the fact and found some instances of people voting in both NY and FL.


The bigger concern I have are scenarios like
A) the schemes that were uncovered in Connecticut and Mississippi, where people were found to have been "helping fill out" mail-in ballots for "potentially senile"--shall we say, seniors in in-home care and assisted-living situations.
What does the square quotes mean?
B) The kind of stuff that got discovered in Michigan, involving tampering with unrequested mail-in ballots that were either made out to the prior residents, or accidentally delivered to the wrong mailbox (which can be a common occurrence in apartment complexes)
How would that impact voting at all?
C) Things like the Minnesota case where a couple was found to have done nearly 500 bogus voter registrations over a period of 2 years.


I think some of my concerns would be mitigated if some of the states that engage in the practice, would stop sending unrequested mail-in ballots.
Though all states offer some form of voting by mail, nine states and Washington, D.C., now mandate that every voter be mailed a ballot ahead of an election by default. Last year was the first time that California, Vermont and the nation’s capital began the practice.

Literally mailing every person a ballot (when many are planning to vote in-person) creates unnecessary risk.
How? Somebody still needs to vote.
Not to mention, just in terms of practical logic, the practice of allowing early mail-in voting up to 30-45 days early isn't intuitive for a few other reasons unrelated to fraud. -- especially if we're going to keep insisting on running presidential and senate candidates that are nearing 80 years old.
How does the length of time for early voting impact the vote if you only count latest vote or the vote left on election day.
Imagine, I mail in a ballot for candidate "Joe Shmedley" 45 days early and he's 83 years old. He has a heart attack and keels over 10 days later and my party puts up another candidate in his place. There's not really a provision for a mulligan that I'm aware of.
Why not count it then, this must be exceedingly hard to make into a voter fraud scheme.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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I don't think double-voting is the crux of the concern (at least not the crux of my concern). While they have found instances of that, those are already a little easier to catch -- like when they've audited after the fact and found some instances of people voting in both NY and FL.


The bigger concern I have are scenarios like
A) the schemes that were uncovered in Connecticut and Mississippi, where people were found to have been "helping fill out" mail-in ballots for "potentially senile"--shall we say, seniors in in-home care and assisted-living situations.
Voter ID won't help with this scenario. Banning mail voting would, but then that disenfranchises citizens who are unable to physically get to the polls.
B) The kind of stuff that got discovered in Michigan, involving tampering with unrequested mail-in ballots that were either made out to the prior residents, or accidentally delivered to the wrong mailbox (which can be a common occurrence in apartment complexes)
Again, requiring an ID to vote won't solve this.
C) Things like the Minnesota case where a couple was found to have done nearly 500 bogus voter registrations over a period of 2 years.
Unless those bogus registrations were voting, this seems like a case where people were getting paid by a company based on the number of voters they registered, and were defrauding their employer
I think some of my concerns would be mitigated if some of the states that engage in the practice, would stop sending unrequested mail-in ballots.
Though all states offer some form of voting by mail, nine states and Washington, D.C., now mandate that every voter be mailed a ballot ahead of an election by default. Last year was the first time that California, Vermont and the nation’s capital began the practice.

Literally mailing every person a ballot (when many are planning to vote in-person) creates unnecessary risk.
I do agree that mailing everyone a ballot creates unnecessary risks.
Not to mention, just in terms of practical logic, the practice of allowing early mail-in voting up to 30-45 days early isn't intuitive for a few other reasons unrelated to fraud. -- especially if we're going to keep insisting on running presidential and senate candidates that are nearing 80 years old.

Imagine, I mail in a ballot for candidate "Joe Shmedley" 45 days early and he's 83 years old. He has a heart attack and keels over 10 days later and my party puts up another candidate in his place. There's not really a provision for a mulligan that I'm aware of.
There are actually provisions to resolve this scenario. Ballots have to be locked in at some point before the election for printing purposes, regardless of mail voting or early voting. If a candidate dies after the lock-in but before the election, they stay on the ballot. If they win, there's a special election as if they had died in office. There have been a couple cases of people winning elections posthumously.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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What does the square quotes mean?
it was my way of implying that "potentially senile" means what was going on was that caregivers were manipulating old people (who can't even remember their grandchildren's names) into voting for candidate of the candidate of their choosing, and an Alzheimer's patient isn't going to know the difference or remember that it even happened.
How would that impact voting at all?
If someone get's their neighbors ballot or a ballot for the previous resident due to everyone in the state being mailed on whether they requested one or not, and fills it out and mails it in, that can go undetected in a lot of circumstances.
 
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rjs330

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It's a voter suppression bill. If I hadn't gotten a passport 25 years ago for work-related travel, I'd have a hard time complying with it despite having been a registered voter in my precinct for 20 years.
No its not. Why would you have a hard time?

Seriously, what is your big beef with voter ID?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Voter ID won't help with this scenario. Banning mail voting would, but then that disenfranchises citizens who are unable to physically get to the polls.
Again, requiring an ID to vote won't solve this.
But there's a difference between mail-in voting, and ID-free voting.

I cited Canada's process before.

I my understanding of their process is correct:
In order to request a mail in ballot, you need to send (or submit online)
Scanned copies of:
Your provincial issued ID (D/L)
2 Pieces of other ID (like a health card or utility bill)

They then bump that information up against the national voter registry to make sure all is in order, then they mail a ballot to that address.

While a person could still go as far as stealing their grandma's ID, healthcare card, and a utility bill, mailing it in, and then hanging around at her house every day until the mail man drops it off, and then filling it out and mailing it back in... that's much more difficult to engage in funny business than if a place is just mailing ballots all over town.

I don't necessarily have a huge issue with mail-in voting provided the proper checks and guardrails are in place. And it has to be something more solid than reliance on an election worker volunteer eyeballing signatures on a stack of 1,000 ballots and hoping they catch most of it.
Unless those bogus registrations were voting, this seems like a case where people were getting paid by a company based on the number of voters they registered, and were defrauding their employer
The reality is, in an ID free system, we don't know, and we can't know with a high degree of accuracy.

For instance, if we had an ID-free mail-in alcohol ordering system (which I'm sure many of us would've loved back when we were between the ages of 18-20), we wouldn't be able to pinpoint the number of young people who were placing the orders and grabbing it off the porch after the delivery guy leaves. But we know the number certainly wouldn't be 0.


To be frank, we've seen the lengths people are willing to go in the name of political tribalism, I'm not confident that we don't have quite a few people in this country who wouldn't be above saying "Well, sorry granny, but it looks like you're voting for my guy, this election is too important to risk losing"
 
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NxNW

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Last I checked there was around 100 charged in Minnasota's fraud. California is next. They have dicovered recod breaking Fraud.
DOGE didn't.
Just because there's no arrest at the moment doesn't mean the fraud did not happen.
A conviction is exactly how you prove it.
The same slack principle of allowing immigrant programs to go unchecked and given funding. Is the same as allowing voters to go unchecked.
Except neither happened.
There is also a high rate of drugs and human trafficking including sex trafficking and child abuse with illegal immigration.
Aren't you glad Biden was so much better at protecting the border?
 
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NxNW

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The bigger concern I have are scenarios like
A) the schemes that were uncovered in Connecticut and Mississippi, where people were found to have been "helping fill out" mail-in ballots for "potentially senile"--shall we say, seniors in in-home care and assisted-living situations.

Assisting an elderly voter is perfectly legal and expected.
B) The kind of stuff that got discovered in Michigan, involving tampering with unrequested mail-in ballots that were either made out to the prior residents, or accidentally delivered to the wrong mailbox (which can be a common occurrence in apartment complexes)
Signature verification solves this.
C) Things like the Minnesota case where a couple was found to have done nearly 500 bogus voter registrations over a period of 2 years.
Nothing to do with ID.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Assisting an elderly voter is perfectly legal and expected.
Yes, if it's really assisting them.

Taking their mail-in ballots without them knowing, or filling it out with the person you want when they're not of sound mind is on the same level as tricking elderly dementia patients to give away money.

The schemes I was referencing involved the latter.

Mail-in Ballot harvesting in the Alzheimer's unit of the local nursing home isn't "assistance"
Signature verification solves this.
If there was a good way to do signature verification, I may agree.

However, attempting to do signature verification by election workers is by no means an effective stand-alone validation.

While they get some training, the immense workload and time constraints combined with the fact that they're not handwriting experts.
Nothing to do with ID.
Sure it does.

If I filled out a phony voter registration on behalf of my youngest brother (who's never actually registered to vote because he has zero interest), there would be nothing to catch that in terms of a mail-in ballot provided I mailed it from the local post office where he lives. And even if I showed up in person and said I was him, unless someone spotted me and knew I wasn't my brother, without having to provide some sort of ID, that would probably get through as well. (as I could easily pass for someone a few years younger)
 

RocksInMyHead

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But there's a difference between mail-in voting, and ID-free voting.

I cited Canada's process before.

I my understanding of their process is correct:
In order to request a mail in ballot, you need to send (or submit online)
Scanned copies of:
Your provincial issued ID (D/L)
2 Pieces of other ID (like a health card or utility bill)

They then bump that information up against the national voter registry to make sure all is in order, then they mail a ballot to that address.

While a person could still go as far as stealing their grandma's ID, healthcare card, and a utility bill, mailing it in, and then hanging around at her house every day until the mail man drops it off, and then filling it out and mailing it back in... that's much more difficult to engage in funny business than if a place is just mailing ballots all over town.
From what I can tell, you only need to do this once, not every election. If grandma registered to vote by mail five years ago, she's going to keep getting a ballot every year until she's struck from the rolls as deceased or changes her address.
The reality is, in an ID free system, we don't know, and we can't know with a high degree of accuracy.
Pennsylvania was one of the states on your map that supposedly requires no ID to vote (that's not strictly true - you have to show your ID the first time you vote at your polling place), but when I've voted by mail, I can track my ballot and see when it's mailed to me, when it's received by the election office, and when it has been counted. Even without an ID, every voter registration exists as a record in the registration database, and they can associate a ballot (or, more likely the envelope, to keep it anonymous) with that registration record in order to track whether that registrant has voted. As far as I know, every state that does mail voting has a similar system.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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From what I can tell, you only need to do this once, not every election. If grandma registered to vote by mail five years ago, she's going to keep getting a ballot every year until she's struck from the rolls as deceased or changes her address.
The impression I'm getting is that it needs to be done on a per ballot request basis for Canadian federal elections.

A situation of, for each federal election you want to vote by mail in, you have to fill out the paperwork to receive the ballot.

1770945369142.png

Pennsylvania was one of the states on your map that supposedly requires no ID to vote (that's not strictly true - you have to show your ID the first time you vote at your polling place), but when I've voted by mail, I can track my ballot and see when it's mailed to me, when it's received by the election office, and when it has been counted. Even without an ID, every registration record exists as a record in the registration database, and they can associate a ballot (or, more likely the envelope, to keep it anonymous) with that registration record in order to track whether that registrant has voted.
You can track your ballot, but that's because you're expecting it to come, and you're the one mailing in.

In states where they send a ballot to everyone, or for someone who didn't intend on voting, so had no idea that there was even a ballot sent in or received in their name, they likely aren't hopping online to check and see if someone's voted in their name.

Same way as if I ordered something from Amazon, I'll think to log on and check and see what the shipping status is. However, if someone hacked my account and placed an order I was never aware of, I wouldn't think to just randomly log on to Amazon and check order statuses.

And this is even less conspicuous, because in the Amazon order hypothetical, most people would at least notice something on their credit card. There's no real-time push notifications that show up on phones to show when someone did a mail-in ballot in your name.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Last I checked there was around 100 charged in Minnasota's fraud. California is next. They have dicovered recod breaking Fraud. Just because there's no arrest at the moment doesn't mean the fraud did not happen.
Where is this voter fraud in Minnesota (or why you think California is next)? Citation is needed.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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The impression I'm getting is that it needs to be done on a per ballot request basis for Canadian federal elections.

A situation of, for each federal election you want to vote by mail in, you have to fill out the paperwork to receive the ballot.
If your application is accepted:
  • We will send you a confirmation letter.
  • We will add your name to the International Register of Electors, the list of Canadian electors living outside Canada who are eligible to vote by mail.
  • At each election in which you are qualified to vote, we will automatically mail a special ballot voting kit to the address you provided.
  • Your name will stay on the International Register of Electors as long as you remain eligible. You will not have to re-apply to vote by mail at each election.

You can track your ballot, but that's because you're expecting it to come, and you're the one mailing in.
Right. We're talking about a situation in which the authorities know that a registration is fraudulent (your example was the couple in Minnesota who submitted 500 fraudulent registrations). If you know which registrations are fraudulent, then you can check to see if they have voted.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Right. We're talking about a situation in which the authorities know that a registration is fraudulent (your example was the couple in Minnesota who submitted 500 fraudulent registrations). If you know which registrations are fraudulent, then you can check to see if they have voted.

The site you posted was for Canadian's who live abroad.

Hence the caption on this button
1770952628924.png


That's a different interface than the one I provided a screenshot of.
1770952985417.png


For people living abroad, it makes more sense that they would make provisions for a "one & done" system.



To your other bit, it only applies "IF" they know a registration is fraudulent. Catching that couple in Minnesota took a two year investigation by the FBI to prove it.

Isn't it just easier to bite the bullet and require proof of citizenship to register, and require photo ID when the vote is cast?

This is a situation where people are making it more convoluted than it needs to be.

For all of the things that progressives here in the US want to copy off of Canada, it seems a tad conspicuous that this is the one thing where they don't want to copy it.

For those who take issue with this, replace "cast a vote" with "buy a gun" (both constitutional rights) and see if they still feel the same way.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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The site you posted was for Canadian's who live abroad.
Whoops.
That's a different interface than the one I provided a screenshot of.
I have no idea why you insist on just providing screenshot of things rather than links. There's literally nothing in the screenshot you provided that says anything about it being an every-election thing. That said, it seems you're correct, per this webpage:

a) Vote by mail – for electors who live in Canada​

If your home is in Canada, you must wait until after an election is called to apply to vote by mail.

After an election is called:

  • Complete an Application for Registration and Special Ballot. The form will be available on this website, at any local Elections Canada office or by calling Elections Canada.
  • Send us your completed form and proof of identity and home address. You can submit them by fax, by mail, or in person at any local Elections Canada office.
  • Once your application is accepted, we will send you a special ballot voting kit by regular mail. (If you apply in person, staff will hand you the kit.) The kit explains how to mark your special ballot and mail it in.
Voting by mail means voting by special ballot.

To your other bit, it only applies "IF" they know a registration is fraudulent. Catching that couple in Minnesota took a two year investigation by the FBI to prove it.
It took two years to charge them, but it was flagged immediately. Because the system works.
Isn't it just easier to bite the bullet and require proof of citizenship to register, and require photo ID when the vote is cast?
It would be, if those were things that every citizen had access to free of charge.
This is a situation where people are making it more convoluted than it needs to be.

For all of the things that progressives here in the US want to copy off of Canada, it seems a tad conspicuous that this is the one thing where they don't want to copy it.
We could maybe copy the whole of it. See their ID requirements to vote:

That's a very long list of possible documents you can use as ID, and there's even the option for someone who has none of them to find someone to vouch for them. Also note that many of those forms of ID are government-provided.

I've said multiple times that I'm not inherently opposed to requiring ID to vote - there just needs to be a way for that ID to be available free-of-charge to anyone who wants it.
 
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