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‘Any Christian who votes Democrat again is a fool,’ rapper Nicki Minaj declares

Michie

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FireDragon76

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WHY not? Your sentiment isn't wrong; Jesus was indeed protesting. But WHY? He was protesting the profiting occurring in front of God's House. The bigger issue is WHY, so as to reveal the person that seeks to understand WHY. God is sifting, and all things will be uncovered including the spirit that would point to how worship was being interrupted by protesters without bothering to understand WHY. We need to guard our tongues and discern the times. I would add that in the end the lamb went to the slaughter without revile and forgave those who crucified him.

That's a common Evangelical Protestant interpretation, to focus on the suppossed corrupting influence of money (which in itself contains an anti-Semitic trope) but it really says too little. Jesus was prophetically judging a broken religious system, not completely unlike what I'm sure the protesters felt they were challenging.
 
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childeye 2

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That's a common Evangelical Protestant interpretation, to focus on the suppossed corrupting influence of money (which in itself contains an anti-Semitic trope) but it really says too little. Jesus was prophetically judging a broken religious system, not completely unlike what I'm sure the protesters felt they were challenging.
A good pragmatist works with what's on the field of play and doesn't guess. In this case, it has not been established that the Pastor of the church where the protest took place did anything wrong, and we need to avoid slander at all costs.
 
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The Liturgist

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For my part, I am precluded from engaging in party politics, but I cannot support any politician who is not opposed to abortion and euthanasia as a bright line issue, nor any candidate who is not opposed to the increasing encroachment on free speech of Christians in Europe and Canada and the attempted encroachment in the US that occurred during the pandemic (which was deemed by the US Supreme Court to have been mostly unlawful in its overbearing extremity; in particular Nevada allowing liquor stores to remain open while forbidding worship services and the Mayor of New York showing up to try to shut down the funeral of a prominent Chassidic Rabbi (and thus risk infecting the highly isolated and self-contained Chassidic community, which would, due to its self isolation, be less at risk of external infection had he not shown up; also if they were infected, well, his presence, it was not a good idea, and a terrible look; indeed it was the most blatant act of anti-Semitism I had seen by a major politician up until that point, but since 2023 such actions have become more frequent since, the issue of the proportionality of Israel’s response to the October 7th terrorist attacks upon it aside, do not constitute a rationale for criticism of Judaism itself, which we have seen from politicians not purely confined to the fringe, which I find very upsetting, for Jews are often the canary in the coal mine of political discourse, in that when they are openly targeted, it generally means that the free practice of religion by other groups is at risk.

Everything I have said applies as criticism to both political parties, for there were members of both parties who crossed the lines I have referred to (and regarding Israel we have seen excesses in both directions by members of both Democrats and Republicans, but unfortunately almost no one advocating for what really matters which is a solution that promotes a stable peace in the region and prioritizes rebuilding the decimated Christian population of the Holy Land).

Thus, I will always support, without endorsing publicly a candidate or party, whoever stands with unborn children and those ill persons who deserve life-saving or comfort-providing palliative care rather than prescriptive death, whoever stands with persecuted Christians in the Middle East, whoever stands for peace and the avoidance of needless prolonged international conflict, whoever wishes to prevent a full resurgence of the Cold War in all its nightmarish horror (which we have not yet reached, but are rushing headlong towards), and also whoever stands for the propagation of traditional family values concerning the importance of marriage, the evil of divorce, the evil of adultery, the evil of genital mutilation (whether the result of religious pressure in the case of FGM in the Middle East or cultural pressure in the case of the current movement towards persuading teens who are discovering their reproductive anatomy that they have gender dysphoria best solved via catastrophic procedures that will destroy their ability to reproduce (as most “gender-affirming surgery” and many other hormonic treatments involving the genitalia does; indeed it seems eerie the same people who two decades ago were banging on endlessly about the dangers of overpopulation are now the same ones clamoring to promote the idea of gender dysphoria and the idea that children and teenagers are entitled to medical procedures that risk sterilization as a cure for gender dysphoria (which, if it were like any other dysphoria, would be treated as both a mental illness and with routine medication not likely to cause sterility - but paradoxically we are asked to accept that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness and yet requires “gender affirming” therapy as a matter of literal life or death (since apparently those with a severe case of it cannot simply be, as other people at risk of harming themselves would be, accommodated in residential psychiatric care).

There is also the issue of the inappropriate and grotesque participation of biological males in women’s sports, which strikes me as unfair and unsportsmanlike.

Thus, regardless of political party, these are important issues to Christians, for they are founded on the Christian sexual moral program as expounded by St. Paul based on the clear counsel of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ to avoid lascivious conduct and especially adultery.

And unfortunately on the last issue I am frustrated with all major politicians, for so many of them are serial adulterers, even those who I agree with on a broad range of other issues. I believe that being divorced and remarried should not merely be a disqualification from ordination to the Orthodox Christian priesthood, (and to the Christian clergy in general vis a vis St. Paul’s instruction that a pastor should be “the husband of one wife”), but to political office, since a man who cannot remain faithful to his wife or a woman to her husband, except in the latter case, I should make an exception for women who are victims of domestic violence, neglect or abandonment in their prior marriage, should not in my view be entitled to a civil presidency either - for the penalty for adultery should be the forfeiture of all moral gravitas, auctoritas, dignitas and both kinetic and potential imperium.
 

The Liturgist

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I should add the disruption of a worship service was an obscene act, and one which should be prosecuted civilly and criminally. Anyone who disagrees with that should consider the possibility of protestors showing up at their church on some issue.

For example, if the Westboro Baptist Church dared to protest inside a Catholic or mainline Protestant or Orthodox church, all of whom they like to declare on their website are hated by God and destined for hellfire, well, we should all rightfully be upset.

It is the same in this case. If one really must be so uncivil as to protest at a church, do so outside, in a manner that does not violate their private property rights or obstruct the comings and goings of members. And having people inside a church shouting, allegedly, obscenities at congregants including children and obstructing a van with youth is so far beyond the pale. Such conduct at any house of worship, even the coven of witches, or the scam-parlors of Scientology, is and ought to be unlawful, in every civilized country (indeed even in places such as the UK where the free exercise of religion has been in some cases infringed, such conduct is as far as I can tell as one not a lawyer, unlawful.
 

FireDragon76

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I should add the disruption of a worship service was an obscene act, and one which should be prosecuted civilly and criminally. Anyone who disagrees with that should consider the possibility of protestors showing up at their church on some issue.

For example, if the Westboro Baptist Church dared to protest inside a Catholic or mainline Protestant or Orthodox church, all of whom they like to declare on their website are hated by God and destined for hellfire, well, we should all rightfully be upset.

It is the same in this case. If one really must be so uncivil as to protest at a church, do so outside, in a manner that does not violate their private property rights or obstruct the comings and goings of members. And having people inside a church shouting, allegedly, obscenities at congregants including children and obstructing a van with youth is so far beyond the pale. Such conduct at any house of worship, even the coven of witches, or the scam-parlors of Scientology, is and ought to be unlawful, in every civilized country (indeed even in places such as the UK where the free exercise of religion has been in some cases infringed, such conduct is as far as I can tell as one not a lawyer, unlawful.

When religion is used to shield people engaged in administering harm from accountability to the broader community, perhaps we need to stop and ask if we aren't on the wrong side of things and what kind of witness that is demonstrating to the world?
 
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askesis

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I understand why she has decided to support Donald Trump. She has made a deal with the devil. In any other circumstance, a Green Card holder who was arrested for possessing a gun with an intent to kill would have been immediately deported. This was her situation so instead she decided to make a deal and use her platform to promote the very administration that would have deported her. Such hypocrites shouldn't represent our Lord, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

To be fair, she's afraid. If you're afraid and the devil will help you get what you want, who can blame you? Just remember, Cyrus was not holy but he was God's chosen so anything Christians do politically is justified.
 
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The Liturgist

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When religion is used to shield people engaged in administering harm from accountability to the broader community, perhaps we need to stop and ask if we aren't on the wrong side of things and what kind of witness that is demonstrating to the world?

You do not have the moral or legal right to trespass in my church, which is private property, or impede entry to it, because you think a member of my clergy might be an officer of a law enforcement organization conducting law enforcement operations (that were conducted, I would note, even in the Obama administration as a matter of course) you find morally objectionable.

The reverse is also true; I do not have the right to trespass in your church because your church might have a member of clergy who promotes the continued legalization of abortion and euthanasia, or who is, for example, a prosecutor who is conducting prosecutions of Christians who obstructed an abortion clinic entrance (which interestingly is forbidden by the same bipartisan law that also forbids obstructing churches, which was essentially a bit of that parliamentary jiu-jitsu that in the US we commonly refer to as “log rolling” or as “I’ll scratch your back if you scratch my back” to use a particularly colorful metaphor from the 1990s.

The absurdity of all of this is that the protestors in question would have been entirely within their constitutional rights to protest on public land across from the street in a manner that was not disorderly. But the right to freedom of speech does not extend to preventing the speech of someone else, by entering into, for example, their workplace or their place of worship, and disrupting whatever they are seeking to do, because you suspect them of being a member of a law enforcement agency you have moral qualms with.

The fact that this issue is even controversial I find appalling; as if trespass and disorderly conduct is now regarded as acceptable behavior in the consecrated precincts of a church, even one which I personally would not patronize, for said church is not Orthodox. But the principle holds.

Suppose, for example, because some churches in my denomination, the Orthodox Church in America, serve predominantly Russian communities and are called Russian Orthodox, despite the fact we were granted autocephalous status by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1970 and thus have no connection with the MP or with anyone involved in the ongoing tragic fratricide of Russians and Ukrainians, that some Ukrainians were to protest in our church under the assumption that because it says Russian Orthodox therefore that means the priest is part of the Moscow Patriarchate and therefore presumptively a supporter of controversial Russian foreign policy?

Is that to be the next dish on this buffet of bizarre and grotesquely disproportionate behavior that I am supposed to smile and quietly endorse as the apex of free speech in Western civilization?

Or for that matter, suppose feminists were to descend upon my OCA parish because it is widely said and believed by many in the liberal mainline churches that the majority of converts to the Orthodox Church are men who are misogynistic and opposed to the rights and freedoms of women? (the large number of single women converts and the importance of women in the Orthodox church notwithstanding, even, I would note, within the Old Calendarist churches which are more likely than canonical Orthodox churches to attract the vocal minority known as “Orthobros” or in the previous decade, as “Hyperdox Herman”, notwithstanding? Since it would seem according to that group that Orthodox churches are arguably harboring men engaging in harm to the wider community through various acts of callous and disagreeable behavior with respect to the fairer sex?

I should think not.

No, your first ammendment rights do not entail infringing on mine, no matter how noble or ignoble the cause, nor vice versa. Churches, synagogues and mosques and other religious buildings are sacred places, lawfully protected, but any private place can prosecute people who refuse to leave after being asked (this is called having someone trespassed and is a daily occurrence, frequently happening on airliners, for example, when flight attendants realize a passenger is intoxicated and inform the captain, who concurs with his cabin crew that the aircraft cannot safely push back with that person on-board, which requires calling the police to remove them.

The principle of unauthorized protestors in worship services at its core boils down to that basic principle combined with a bit of the Golden Rule and also the concept of respect for the rights of others. There’s also the idea of due process - accosting someone because you think they are affiliated with a law enforcement agency you have issues with is in and of itself morally dubious activity. It could very easily constitute slander, if one were mistaken about the question of identity, which we must admit is always a risk when doing that sort of thing, and which I would note was regarded by the early church fathers as being a sin akin to murder, a sin of particular heinousness. Indeed slander is one of the very few things I know of that most Orthodox clergy will penance someone for.
 

FireDragon76

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You do not have the moral or legal right to trespass in my church, which is private property, or impede entry to it, because you think a member of my clergy might be an officer of a law enforcement organization conducting law enforcement operations (that were conducted, I would note, even in the Obama administration as a matter of course) you find morally objectionable.

The reverse is also true; I do not have the right to trespass in your church because your church might have a member of clergy who promotes the continued legalization of abortion and euthanasia, or who is, for example, a prosecutor who is conducting prosecutions of Christians who obstructed an abortion clinic entrance (which interestingly is forbidden by the same bipartisan law that also forbids obstructing churches, which was essentially a bit of that parliamentary jiu-jitsu that in the US we commonly refer to as “log rolling” or as “I’ll scratch your back if you scratch my back” to use a particularly colorful metaphor from the 1990s.

The absurdity of all of this is that the protestors in question would have been entirely within their constitutional rights to protest on public land across from the street in a manner that was not disorderly. But the right to freedom of speech does not extend to preventing the speech of someone else, by entering into, for example, their workplace or their place of worship, and disrupting whatever they are seeking to do, because you suspect them of being a member of a law enforcement agency you have moral qualms with.

The fact that this issue is even controversial I find appalling; as if trespass and disorderly conduct is now regarded as acceptable behavior in the consecrated precincts of a church, even one which I personally would not patronize, for said church is not Orthodox. But the principle holds.

Suppose, for example, because some churches in my denomination, the Orthodox Church in America, serve predominantly Russian communities and are called Russian Orthodox, despite the fact we were granted autocephalous status by the Moscow Patriarchate in 1970 and thus have no connection with the MP or with anyone involved in the ongoing tragic fratricide of Russians and Ukrainians, that some Ukrainians were to protest in our church under the assumption that because it says Russian Orthodox therefore that means the priest is part of the Moscow Patriarchate and therefore presumptively a supporter of controversial Russian foreign policy?

Is that to be the next dish on this buffet of bizarre and grotesquely disproportionate behavior that I am supposed to smile and quietly endorse as the apex of free speech in Western civilization?

Or for that matter, suppose feminists were to descend upon my OCA parish because it is widely said and believed by many in the liberal mainline churches that the majority of converts to the Orthodox Church are men who are misogynistic and opposed to the rights and freedoms of women? (the large number of single women converts and the importance of women in the Orthodox church notwithstanding, even, I would note, within the Old Calendarist churches which are more likely than canonical Orthodox churches to attract the vocal minority known as “Orthobros” or in the previous decade, as “Hyperdox Herman”, notwithstanding? Since it would seem according to that group that Orthodox churches are arguably harboring men engaging in harm to the wider community through various acts of callous and disagreeable behavior with respect to the fairer sex?

I should think not.

No, your first ammendment rights do not entail infringing on mine, no matter how noble or ignoble the cause, nor vice versa. Churches, synagogues and mosques and other religious buildings are sacred places, lawfully protected, but any private place can prosecute people who refuse to leave after being asked (this is called having someone trespassed and is a daily occurrence, frequently happening on airliners, for example, when flight attendants realize a passenger is intoxicated and inform the captain, who concurs with his cabin crew that the aircraft cannot safely push back with that person on-board, which requires calling the police to remove them.

The principle of unauthorized protestors in worship services at its core boils down to that basic principle combined with a bit of the Golden Rule and also the concept of respect for the rights of others. There’s also the idea of due process - accosting someone because you think they are affiliated with a law enforcement agency you have issues with is in and of itself morally dubious activity. It could very easily constitute slander, if one were mistaken about the question of identity, which we must admit is always a risk when doing that sort of thing, and which I would note was regarded by the early church fathers as being a sin akin to murder, a sin of particular heinousness. Indeed slander is one of the very few things I know of that most Orthodox clergy will penance someone for.

This is a confusion of categories. You're speaking of property rights, religious freedom, the categories of the Enlightenment, I'm speaking of whether people that claim to be following Jesus should be allowing somebody participating in harm to the community to shepherd them, giving them a place of honor and prestige.
 
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