Can a faithful Christian be damned for not being baptized?

DragonFox91 said:

I don't think infant baptism is really baptism

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Thanks for thinking. But I'll stick with Scripture and 2,000 years of Church teaching.

DragonFox91 said:

I don't think infant baptism is really baptism, & I think many real Christians were infant baptized but never actually get baptized the way they should, so I don't think a real Christian can be damned for not being baptized. Just like it's possible to be 'baptized' & be damned

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Under the Old Covenant, was an [male] infant who was circumcised a member of God's Covenant people? Did circumcision only count if an adult converted to Judaism and received circumcision as an adult?

Does God's grace only apply to adults? Does God withhold His mercy and saving power from infants and small children?

If Baptism is a Means of Grace, not a work of human obedience, then what justification can there be to withhold baptism from infants and children? When in the Gospel the crowds gathered and brought their infants and children before the Lord that He may bless them, and His disciples tried to prohibit this, what did the Lord say? He not only said "Do not prohibit the children from coming to Me" He also said "For to such as these belong the kingdom".

God has always been a God of Covenant Faithfulness, a God of mercy and compassion, who does not discriminate. He is not a "respector of persons", He does not show favoritism or partiality; but since all are condemned already He shall be merciful to all impartially (Romans 11:32). For He will not withhold His Spirit from the very young of the very old, for it is written, "I will pour out My Spirit upon all people, your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams and your young men will have visions"--so that what happened on Pentecost with the outpouring of the Spirit is not for merely some, but for all; which is why St. Peter not only says "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" but also "this is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself".

To suggest that the infant who is baptized is not really baptized isn't mere theological opinion; it is a rejection of God's own saving mercy and power and creating a barrier between God and those whom He is calling to faith, calling to Himself.

Children have always been included in God's mercy and good purpose; for He loves the little ones no less than He loves the very old. His eternal and invincible heart is for the young and the old, for the rich and the poor, for the widow, the orphan, the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the unlearned and the learned, for the stranger, for the sick and imprisoned. He is the God who shatters walls, who breaks down barricades, and brings everlasting goodness through His eternal purposes, purposed in Christ Jesus for the whole world--that none should perish, but all have eternal life through faith in His only-begotten Son. He tore down the walls of Jericho, so also does He tear down the walls around our reprobate hearts, so does He tear down the walls that we erect when we try and discriminate against others made in His Image. All our walls, our towers, and or high places He will abolish--for He is a God whose love cannot be constrained.

The Flood Prayer:
"Almighty and eternal God, according to Your strict judgment You condemned the unbelieving world through the flood, yet according to Your great mercy You preserved believing Noah and his family, eight souls in all. You drowned hard-hearted Pharaoh and all his host in the Red Sea, yet led Your people Israel through the water on dry ground, prefiguring this washing of Your Holy Baptism. Through the Baptism in the Jordan of Your beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, You sanctified and instituted all waters to be a blessed flood, and a lavish washing away of sin. We pray that You would behold (name) according to Your boundless mercy and bless him with true faith by the Holy Spirit that through this saving flood all sin in him which has been inherited from Adam and which he himself has committed since would be drowned and die. Grant that he be kept safe and secure in the holy ark of the Christian Church, being separated from the multitude of unbelievers and serving Your name at all times with a fervent spirit and a joyful hope, so that, with all believers in Your promise, he would be declared worthy of eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord."

RileyG said:

I’m a bit confused.

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AND tell me what you are confused. with and explain what I meant.

dan p

RileyG said:

Amen! Baptism saves as per the word of Scripture and ancient tradition!

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And verse a verse for that position ??

dan p

RileyG said:

The great commission?

Also 1 Peter 3:21,

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And great. commission was given to Israel as the Paul was NOT yet saved to begin with. the BODY OF CHRIST

IN Acts 9:6 and in 1 Tim 1:15 and 16. and 1 Peter 3:21 the BAPTISM. is really he Greek word BAPTISMA

and not BAPTISM AND CHECK THE GREEK TEXT AND the Greek text uses the GREEK word BAPTISMA 22 times

From MATTHEW TOO 1 PETER 3:21 !!

dan p

The Liturgist said:

Indeed, for this reason when a Christian is baptized in a liturgical church they are insufflated with the Holy Spirit, and in Orthodoxy Chrismation is applied immediately, as the seal of the Holy Spirit, so that in this manner anyone we baptize can be said to definitely have been baptized in the Jordan with Christ, receiving the Holy Spirit, and likewise since we immediately give the Eucharist even to infants, they have in communion with our Lord at the Last Supper received His blood, together with the Holy Apostles and all the faithful.

Interestingly in 1 John 5:7-9, there is not only an exquisite reference to sacramental theology which references the Baptism of our Lord in the four Gospels but also the Eucharist, which our Lord described in John ch. 6, and later instituted in the narratives found in the Synoptics and 1 Corinthians, and additionally there is also a Trinitarian reference which is clear even if one has a Bible lacking the Comma Johanneum.

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Late reply,...

Let's look at 1 John 5:8 again,...

1 Jn 5:8 And there are three who bear witness upon the earth: The Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three into the one are.

There are 3 separate items listed here by John that corresponds to 3 separate events that are to happen in a Christian's life.

- A person is initially to be born again by The blood of Jesus by faith.

- A person is to be immersed in water upon the name of Jesus.

- A person it to be filled with The Holy Spirit from Jesus.

There is a lot of confusion over this mainly from church teachings. Some people are taught to go directly to water immersion bypassing the blood, some are taught to not be water immersed after being born again, and some are taught to reject The Holy Spirit because they don't like or can't understand the gift of tongues.

Each one of these things is a separate event that needs to specifically happen in a Christian's life, or they will be deficient in some way in their walk.

ARBITER01 said:

Late reply,...

Let's look at 1 John 5:8 again,...

1 Jn 5:8 And there are three who bear witness upon the earth: The Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three into the one are.

There are 3 separate items listed here by John that corresponds to 3 separate events that are to happen in a Christian's life.

- A person is initially to be born again by The blood of Jesus by faith.

- A person is to be immersed in water upon the name of Jesus.

- A person it to be filled with The Holy Spirit from Jesus.

There is a lot of confusion over this mainly from church teachings. Some people are taught to go directly to water immersion bypassing the blood, some are taught to not be water immersed after being born again, and some are taught to reject The Holy Spirit because they don't like or can't understand the gift of tongues.

Each one of these things is a separate event that needs to specifically happen in a Christian's life, or they will be deficient in some way in their walk.

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These three things do happen in the traditional liturgical churches - the water (in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, see Matthew 28:19; baptisms in the name of Jesus only are invalid; a baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost includes the name of Jesus by definition since He is the Son), this is done via triple immersion even in the case of infants, with complete safety; the Holy Spirit, which is conferred immediately by the Orthodox via Chrismation (in the West Chrismation transformed into Confirmation but the essence of Chrismation was integrated into the Baptismal liturgy itself with the annointing and insufflation, and finally with the Holy Eucharist which is given to all baptized, so that infants for example are baptized before the Divine Liturgy and receive the Eucharist with the rest of the faithful, and at every Sunday thereafter. This can require the clergy to change vestments, from the baptismal white to a different color depending on the liturgical occasion, in those churches which follow a strict liturgical color scheme (the Eastern Orthodox Typikon and Oriental Orthodox equivalents only specify light or dark vestments) but that’s a small price to pay, and also adds to the liturgical beauty of the occasion, in a manner similar to the vestment change from black to white on Great and Holy Saturday (Easter Even).

The Liturgist said:

These three things do happen in the traditional liturgical churches - the water (in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, see Matthew 28:19; baptisms in the name of Jesus only are invalid; a baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost includes the name of Jesus by definition since He is the Son), this is done via triple immersion even in the case of infants, with complete safety; the Holy Spirit, which is conferred immediately by the Orthodox via Chrismation (in the West Chrismation transformed into Confirmation but the essence of Chrismation was integrated into the Baptismal liturgy itself with the annointing and insufflation, and finally with the Holy Eucharist which is given to all baptized, so that infants for example are baptized before the Divine Liturgy and receive the Eucharist with the rest of the faithful, and at every Sunday thereafter. This can require the clergy to change vestments, from the baptismal white to a different color depending on the liturgical occasion, in those churches which follow a strict liturgical color scheme (the Eastern Orthodox Typikon and Oriental Orthodox equivalents only specify light or dark vestments) but that’s a small price to pay, and also adds to the liturgical beauty of the occasion, in a manner similar to the vestment change from black to white on Great and Holy Saturday (Easter Even).

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Again,.... church teaching is what causes a lot of confusion.

Michie said:

I recently spent time at a well-known prayer retreat where believers gather to seek healing, repentance, and a closer walk with God. It was there where I met a fellow believer whose passion for repentance and obedience was unmistakable. Later, during fellowship in my own home, that passion collided with conviction.

What followed was not a calm theological discussion, but a raised-voice argument — one that escalated into a painful exchange in front of his wife. It was ugly. I regret letting it reach that point.

The issue at the center of the conflict was baptism — and whether a person who has never been baptized can truly be saved.

That experience forced me to step back, not just to reexamine the theology, but to ask a more sobering question: What happens when deeply held beliefs about obedience begin to eclipse grace—and fracture fellowship in the process?

Christians across Evangelical traditions agree on this much: baptism matters. Jesus commanded it. The apostles practiced it. The Church has cherished it as a public declaration of faith and identification with Christ.

Continued below.

Can a faithful Christian be damned for not being baptized?

When obedience becomes the doorway to grace, the Gospel is quietly altered

www.christianpost.com

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I believe we need to be baptized for salvation; I believe the Lord will baptize those through no fault of their own did not receive the sacrament ( Matthew 3:11-12, Luke 3:15-17). This, I believe, is within the scope of what the Lord says in John 3:5-8.

The Lord said to not deny the children ( Mark 10:13-16 etc.). I doubt there is an exception for baptism of infants.

It appears that the early Christians had a fairly wide belief in the innocence of children. An account from a non Christian observer, Aristides, noted this in a brief report meant for the emperor Hadrian ( 125 AD ):



And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who has passed through the world without sins.




Aristides later became a Christian and is recognized as a saint. The account is from the 15th chapter of his ( about 10 printed pages) letter.

1 John 5:8And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.

"And there are three that give testimony on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three are one.[3] This is a repetition of what was before said, v. 6, to be expounded in the same manner. But when it is added, these three are one, the sense is, that they witness one and the same truth. Wi. — As the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all bear witness to Christ’s divinity; so the spirit, which he yielded up, crying out with a loud voice upon the cross, and the water and blood that issued from his side, bear witness to his humanity, and are one; that is, all agree in one testimony"

ARBITER01 said:

Again,.... church teaching is what causes a lot of confusion

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Churches of men cause confusion for sure, but not His Church.

concretecamper said:

Churches of men cause confusion for sure, but not His Church.

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The only church that Jesus has is a body.

Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Only the blood of Jesus continually cleanses our conscience, not water.

Lukaris said:

I believe,....

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It's not what I believe that makes any difference, it is what The Holy Spirit reveals in scripture that is true.

My personal belief means nothing with Jesus.

ARBITER01 said:

It's not what I believe that makes any difference, it is what The Holy Spirit reveals in scripture that is true.

My personal belief means nothing with Jesus.

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I am saying in reference as to how I understand my belief in regard to the scriptures I referenced like Matthew 3:11-12. If you believe I misunderstand the scriptures on this, that is a valid criticism but I didn’t speak out of thin air.

ARBITER01 said:

The only church that Jesus has is a body.

Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Only the blood of Jesus continually cleanses our conscience, not water.

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That’s true, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in the Nicene Creed, however you define it ecclesiologically, is, according to St. Paul, the Body of Christ.

This applies whether one follows Eastern (and largely Oriental) Orthodox ecclesiology based on apostolic succession and sobornost, the related Branch Ecclesiology popular among Anglicans, Old Catholics and Assyrians, among others, Roman Catholic Papal-fellowship ecclesiology, mainstream Evangelical and Reformed “Invisible Church” ecclesiology, Baptist, Congregationalist and Stone/Campbell Local Church ecclesiology, or Confessional Lutheran style Orthopraxis-defined ecclesiology (of my friends @ViaCrucis @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian), which in many respects is very close to Orthodox ecclesiology in that it is based on orthodox worship, whereas our requires apostolic succession but only from bishops who practice orthodoxy, whereas the Augustinian model would in theory permit a heterodox bishop to convey apostolic succession provided they followed the correct form (which combined with problems with the Western episcopate explains the conditions that led to Lutherans regarding the nature of the episcopacy as adiaphora, a decision I am sympathetic towards even if I disagree with it, but it was predicated upon a different understanding of the entire ecclesiological model).

Thus it also applies whether or not one follows Scriptural-Patristic doctrine regarding the Real Presence of Christ (adhered to by Orthodox, confessional Lutherans, Catholics, high church Anglicans, Assyrians, many Moravians, most Old Catholics, or some alternative, less sound doctrine such as the implausible Zwinglian approach or the equally implausible Memorialist and Receptionist ideas.

Thus, while the question of the identity and nature and extent of the Church is disputed, that it IS the Body of Christ is incontrovertible, because the Holy Apostle Paul made this point expressly (and linked it to the reception of the Body and Blood of Christ, in 1 Corinthians, which ties us into John ch. 6, 1 John 5:7-9, the Agnus Dei section of Revelation, and the Institution Narratives in 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 and the three Synoptic Gospels, and also the Apostles recognizing the risen Christ in the breaking of bread in Luke 24, and later incidents in Acts.

Lukaris said:

I am saying in reference as to how I understand my belief in regard to the scriptures I referenced like Matthew 3:11-12. If you believe I misunderstand the scriptures on this, that is a valid criticism but I didn’t speak out of thin air.

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Indeed, and what you believe happens to correspond with what the Holy Spirit revealed to the early Church Fathers, who documented it, and whose tree bore good fruit, in the form of martyrdom, the first hospital, and so on.

Unfortunately many Western Christians know little of the Conciliar-era Fathers, because an appreciation of anything pre-reformation is distorted by the false dichotomy of Roman Catholic vs. Evangelical Protestant/Calvinist/Pentecostal, in which even early Protestants will get disregarded as too Catholic, and the Orthodox are basically written out of existence; we become basically reduced in the Western mind to a group of strange Catholics who are somehow controlled by while outwardly rejecting the Pope but wear strange vestments and have strange, long worship services influenced by Pagan superstitions.

Now fortunately most of our interlocutors here take a more charitable view of the East, but I believe real harm was done by films like My Big Fat Greek Wedding in terms of painting Eastern Christianity as this strange ethnic superstition that should be converted to proper Christianity as defined by 19th century Restorationists or the likes of Spurgeon or various Pentecostal and Charismatic movements (who also deny the reality of the Spirit at work in our Church, which is their right since many Orthodox such as Fr. Seraphim Rose, memory eternal, have concerns about aspects of their praxis, although not to the hard-cessationist extent of John MacArthur, in that we admit the gifts of the spirit still exist, we simply do not agree on what those look like or on the nature of how they are received). Naturally I agree with the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox approach, and see much to admire among more traditional-liturgical forms of Western Christianity (one usually, but not always, feels a certain Orthodox phronema when reading CS Lewis, for example, some exceptions being the reductionism in Mere Christianity which while a splendid book, feels less satisfying than the maximalism of the likes of the Desert Fathers, St. Epiphanios, St. Athanasius, St. John of Damascus, St. Cyril of Alexandria, or more recently St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, St. John of Kronstadt, Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky or Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal.