• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Degrees of Deliverance

WordSword

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2017
1,549
299
71
MO.
✟305,039.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Some receive the knowledge of forgiveness without much conviction of sin, and usually their appreciation of Christ as Savior is proportionately feeble. He that is forgiven much, the same loveth much (Luk 7:47). There may be the sense of forgiveness, with little realization of needing it. The evening was not a dark one, and the morning is not a very bright one, although it may be a happy one.

If you have gone on in the world and its ways, wounding your conscience by sin and folly, before your conversion, the Savior, if you are really separated to Him through grace, is loved by you in proportion as you feel your escape from the penalty of your sins, and the judgment that impended over you (there is nothing impending over those whom God knows are going to choose salvation—for those who should be saved will be saved—NC). But then your love for Him is with reference to your former course. I think a great deal depends on the exercise of conscience (always knowing being accepted of Him—NC) and the nature of it which we pass through, before conversion or before we get peace with God.

Some having been raised under the law have tried to be good, and having failed in efforts, they delight in Christ not only as their Savior, but as their righteousness, the answer to everything which their souls need before God. I see again some who have gone against their conscience, and have done wicked things; when convicted, they for the most part are occupied with the grace which has delivered such wretched sinners. The one has not been able to satisfy his conscience though making every effort to do so; the other has openly and violently ran counter to his conscience.

Then there is a third class who, Isaac-like, have a quiet, easy life, and have little exercise of conscience (not appreciating it enough yet—NC), because walking according to the approved order of things in which they have been brought up. Grace presents a Savior and forgiveness of sins to them, and they have the sense of pardon unknown to them before, but they have not suffered much from the need of it.

This latter class are like the widow of Sarepta; they enjoy the quietude until some great link to the scene is broken, and then they learn their natural unfitness for God (1Kingd 17:18); then the sufficiency of Christ above and out of death is known to the soul, and it is as if it were a new conversion; and a devotedness follows unknown to the other classes, unless they have learned the evil of their natures as well as relief from its evils.

The one who learned the evil of his old nature (“old man”—NC) before God, will be far more devoted than the one who has only known pardon from the sins of the nature. The latter may be more enthusiastic in love to the Savior, but it is because of what He has done for him. The one who has found Him as his in the presence of the Father outside and apart from the old man, will rejoice in what He is to him, and Christ is his gain. The one who has found Him as his righteousness before God grows in the excellence of the knowledge of Christ.

The first evening may be the darkest. The widow of Sarepta’s was not; but the dark evening came, and the bright morning followed. We have many evenings and many mornings. To my mind the sense of Christ is greater when He is known in preserving from evil (2Th 3:3—NC), rather than in rescuing from it. I think some natures, as Peter’s, will not bow without an actual fall; others submit and humble themselves when they reach only the brink; and others are subdued when they see the precipice from which His strong arm saves them. I think every evening the foundation is enlarged and deepened (2Co 3:18); and hence as one gets on, the Cross and all that has been affected thereon gets a fuller and clearer place in the soul; but this must ever be with the realization of being united in glory to Him Who was here.


—J B Stoney







MJS daily devotional for February 5

“The defect in souls in general is the incompleteness of their conversion. It is pardon that is apprehended and not acceptance. Acceptance embraces God’s side—how He feels, and this should be chief, for we as sinners have offended Him. The offender has been removed from His eye by a Man—the Lord Jesus Christ, and He can receive us on the ground of the Man who glorified Him in bearing our judgment.

“We cannot enjoy acceptance but in the way in which it was acquired or effected for us, and if we are in the acceptance we know that no improvement of the flesh could commend us to God, and that we cannot be before Him but in Christ. But if we are in any degree dark as to the crucifixion of the old man, we are not in acceptance experientially, we are not in the daily benefit of it, and our liberty by the Spirit can never go beyond our conscious acceptance.”

—James Butler Stoney (1814-1897)



Note: The material from the online “None but the Hungry Heart” daily devotional is central to the entirety of the Plymouth Brethren writings (1700-1800’s). They are unsurpassed in the spiritual growth teachings of Paul’s 13 Epistles, from Romans to Philemon.

May the Father teach us to deeply bestow to Him all the love due Him!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Richard T

NewLifeInChristJesus

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2011
1,734
510
Georgia
✟125,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Some receive the knowledge of forgiveness without much conviction of sin, and usually their appreciation of Christ as Savior is proportionately feeble. He that is forgiven much, the same loveth much (Luk 7:47). There may be the sense of forgiveness, with little realization of needing it. The evening was not a dark one, and the morning is not a very bright one, although it may be a happy one.
If J. B. Stoney were alive today he could defend his point of view. But for me, it is hard to get past this obviously misinformed first paragraph.
 
Upvote 0

WordSword

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2017
1,549
299
71
MO.
✟305,039.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
If J. B. Stoney were alive today he could defend his point of view. But for me, it is hard to get past this obviously misinformed first paragraph.
Hi NLIC, and thanks for your reply! It's my understanding that he is referring to reborn-newbies, which require much time to learn at the appreciation level of those who are mature in the Lord Jesus. There are many things to learn for the Christian, none at the outset have the maturity (but should desire maturity) they will have in the time it takes to learn maturity in Christ; which for the present even many in Christ are yet immature concerning the Word.

It takes all "babes-in-Christ" much time to mature, even though they presently have "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" and "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." As all who are mature, they just need to appropriate everything in time, if they want to mature. But many lack the desire for what it takes to become a mature Christian. Fortunately immaturity does effect one's salvation, just their growth in their faith! Salvation doesn't admit in degrees but faith does.
 
Upvote 0

NewLifeInChristJesus

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2011
1,734
510
Georgia
✟125,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Hi NLIC, and thanks for your reply! It's my understanding that he is referring to reborn-newbies, which require much time to learn at the appreciation level of those who are mature in the Lord Jesus. There are many things to learn for the Christian, none at the outset have the maturity (but should desire maturity) they will have in the time it takes to learn maturity in Christ; which for the present even many in Christ are yet immature concerning the Word.

It takes all "babes-in-Christ" much time to mature, even though they presently have "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" and "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." As all who are mature, they just need to appropriate everything in time, if they want to mature. But many lack the desire for what it takes to become a mature Christian. Fortunately immaturity does effect one's salvation, just their growth in their faith! Salvation doesn't admit in degrees but faith does.
I read the original post more thoroughly to see if I could find any indication that he was speaking about spiritual maturity. The only thing I found was a comment in parentheses ("not appreciating it enough yet—NC") which I assume was not from him. Here are the first two paragraphs without the parentheticals:

Some receive the knowledge of forgiveness without much conviction of sin, and usually their appreciation of Christ as Savior is proportionately feeble. He that is forgiven much, the same loveth much. There may be the sense of forgiveness, with little realization of needing it. The evening was not a dark one, and the morning is not a very bright one, although it may be a happy one.​
If you have gone on in the world and its ways, wounding your conscience by sin and folly, before your conversion, the Savior, if you are really separated to Him through grace, is loved by you in proportion as you feel your escape from the penalty of your sins, and the judgment that impended over you. But then your love for Him is with reference to your former course. I think a great deal depends on the exercise of conscience and the nature of it which we pass through, before conversion or before we get peace with God.​

In the first two paragraphs he is contrasting a person who was saved "without much conviction of sin" with a person who has "gone on in the world and its ways" before their conversion. And in comparing the two, he says of the first person that "usually" his "appreciation of Christ as Savior is proportionately feeble". And of the second person that Chist is "loved by you in proportion as you feel your escape from the penalty of your sins".

Certainly, he does not have insight into the thoughts and intents of other people's hearts so that he can say with certainty that the first category of person "usually" has a "proportionally feeble" "appreciation of Christ as Savior" as compared with the second.

And this point of view is not doctrinally sound either. When people are rescued by Christ from the penalty for their sins, it does not much matter how bad a sinner they were. They are all rescued from the same penalty -- eternal damnation from the presence of the Lord. And they all know they deserve the punishment and they all turn to Christ for relief. And when that relief is granted, it does not stand to reason that those in the first category have a relatively feeble appreciation of Christ as Savior compared to those in the second.
 
Upvote 0

WordSword

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2017
1,549
299
71
MO.
✟305,039.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Certainly, he does not have insight into the thoughts and intents of other people's hearts so that he can say with certainty that the first category of person "usually" has a "proportionally feeble" "appreciation of Christ as Savior" as compared with the second.

And this point of view is not doctrinally sound either. When people are rescued by Christ from the penalty for their sins, it does not much matter how bad a sinner they were. They are all rescued from the same penalty -- eternal damnation from the presence of the Lord. And they all know they deserve the punishment and they all turn to Christ for relief. And when that relief is granted, it does not stand to reason that those in the first category have a relatively feeble appreciation of Christ as Savior compared to those in the second.
It's my understanding that the teachings of the Brethren mostly concern spiritual growth in the "image of Christ" (Rom 8:29; 2Co 3:18). Some of your critique could be accurate, but Stoney, like many of the Brethren a few centuries ago were more advanced spiritually than most, and discerned that the average Christian among God's children have been less mature than they could be.

There has been no change in this. Maturity has no effect on being saved, but is used to reach those whom God are "drawing" to His Son. It's all about maturity now, since we already have eternal "Life" in the Lord Jesus (Col 3:4). The title of the article represents the idea of variable spiritual maturity among believers.
 
Upvote 0