Call upon the Name of the Lord and you shall be Saved.

keras · Saturday at 2:41 PM

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, what prior time of wars has killed 25% of the world's population inside a year or so, as in the 4th seal (Rev 6:8)?

There is no time limit for the Four Seals. Wars kill far more by 'collateral damage', that in actual battle.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Let's see your proof to the contrary.

My proof is that you have no proof for the incredible and impossible idea of a rapture to heaven.

Jeff Saunders · Saturday at 2:54 PM

keras said:
There is no time limit for the Four Seals. Wars kill far more by 'collateral damage', that in actual battle.

My proof is that you have no proof for the incredible and impossible idea of a rapture to heaven.

The concept of the **rapture**—believers being "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air, based on 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17—appears in early Christian writings, but the modern understanding (especially the **pre-tribulation rapture**, where the church is removed before a distinct seven-year tribulation period) is debated among scholars.

All early church fathers who discussed eschatology (end times) affirmed the biblical event of believers being caught up or transformed at Christ's return. However, the majority expected this to occur **after** or **during** a period of tribulation/persecution, often linked to the visible second coming of Christ, rather than a secret pre-tribulation escape for the church alone.

### Key Figures and Teachings
- **Irenaeus of Lyons** (c. 130–202 AD), a disciple of Polycarp (who knew the Apostle John): He frequently referenced believers being "caught up" or translated (e.g., drawing parallels to Enoch and Elijah in *Against Heresies*). Some pre-tribulation advocates interpret passages like *Against Heresies* 5.29.1 ("the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this... There shall be tribulation...") as implying removal before tribulation. However, the broader context (including references to the "last contest of the righteous" and enduring the Antichrist) shows he expected the church to face tribulation before being caught up at Christ's return. Most scholars conclude he did not teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

- **Pseudo-Ephraem** (or Ephraem the Syrian, though the key text is likely later, 4th–7th century): A sermon attributed to him ("On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World") states something like: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion..." This is one of the clearest early references to a gathering **before** tribulation, and pre-tribulation proponents cite it strongly. Authorship and dating are disputed (not definitively the historical Ephraem the Syrian, d. 373 AD), but it represents an ancient expression of pre-trib ideas.

Other early writers (e.g., Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, the Didache, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas) emphasized the **imminent** return of Christ and sometimes escaping tribulation through faith, but in a general sense tied to perseverance amid persecution, not a separate pre-trib event.

### Broader Consensus
- The early church was largely **premillennial** (expecting a literal 1,000-year reign after Christ's return) and believed in a rapture/resurrection of believers.
- They did not articulate a systematic **pre-tribulation rapture** as popularized in the 19th century by figures like John Nelson Darby. Claims of widespread pre-trib teaching often rely on selective or out-of-context quotes.
- Many sources (including post-trib and amillennial perspectives) argue the rapture was always understood as post-tribulational or at Christ's visible return.
- Pretribulation advocates point to elements like imminency (any-moment return) in apostolic fathers and isolated phrases in Irenaeus or Pseudo-Ephraem as seeds of the doctrine.

In summary, early church fathers taught a "rapture" in the sense of believers meeting the Lord (per Scripture), but not typically the modern pre-tribulation version. The clearest potential pre-trib hint comes from Pseudo-Ephraem, while figures like Irenaeus align more with enduring tribulation before the catching up. Eschatological views varied, and the full dispensational framework (including a distinct pre-trib rapture) developed much later.

Dan Perez · Saturday at 8:44 PM

bling said:
What does it mean to "Call on the name of the Lord"?

And since there is no Greek word RAPTURE. does not means that CHRIST IS NOT coming for us in 1 THESS 4:13-17

AND in 2 Thess. 2 :1 -3. !!

And you quoted Joel. 2:38. SHALL CALL. /// QATA. is in. the IMPERFECT TENSE is a a verb. in. the QAL. in. the SINGULAR

And Rom. 10:13. WHOSOEVER ///. PAS. in. the NOMINATIVE CASE in. the SINGULAR.

Better think it over again. as we are SAVED BY GRACE ONLY. !! ROM 10:9 AND 10. !!

dan p

keras · Sunday at 2:06 AM

Dan Perez said:
And since there is no Greek word RAPTURE. does not means that CHRIST IS NOT coming for us in 1 THESS 4:13-17

AND in 2 Thess. 2 :1 -3. !!

And you quoted Joel. 2:38. SHALL CALL. /// QATA. is in. the IMPERFECT TENSE is a a verb. in. the QAL. in. the SINGULAR

And Rom. 10:13. WHOSOEVER ///. PAS. in. the NOMINATIVE CASE in. the SINGULAR.

Better think it over again. as we are SAVED BY GRACE ONLY. !! ROM 10:9 AND 10. !!

dan p

If you had actually read the OP, you would see that my point in calling upon the Name of the Lord, is not for our Salvation, but for our protection. Just as the three men in the furnace did and God did respond then, as He Promises to do again when we face the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath. Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:12-17. +

This promise totally obviates any need for any kind of removal, as we must stand strong in our faith and trust Him to save our lives. 1 Peter 4:12

Lost4words · Sunday at 4:57 AM

Rapture is a modern 'Invention'.

Jeffrey Bowden · Sunday at 10:27 AM

keras said:
There is no time limit for the Four Seals. Wars kill far more by 'collateral damage', that in actual battle.

My proof is that you have no proof for the incredible and impossible idea of a rapture to heaven.

Keras, you're ignoring the obvious.

The Trib (Rev 6 through Rev 16) has a definite time limit. The Trib officially starts at Rev 6:1-2. Those verses have not yet occurred because Rev 4 -5 have not yet occurred. In Jesus' words in Matt 24:29, the Trib will officially end about seven years later.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

In Rev 3:10, believers are referenced as "you." Unbelievers are referenced as "those." The Trib will be "coming on the whole world."

Jesus said, "I will keep you (believers) from the hour of trial (the 7-year Trib). We are nowhere on Earth during the Trib. We are removed from Earth.

Rev 3:10 also states exactly who will dwell on the earth during the Trib. "Those who dwell on the earth" during the Trib are proven to only be unbievers. One classic example is Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

Jesus' words in Rev 3:10, and the words in Rev 11:10 prove that we believers will not be on Earth during the 7-year Trib.

Before the Trib, 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52 will specifically go into effect to remove us from Earth. We are changed into our immortal bodies. We are then taken up and into clouds to meet Jesus for the Judgment Seat of Christ, a glorious event.

keras · Sunday at 1:23 PM

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, you're ignoring the obvious.

The Trib (Rev 6 through Rev 16) has a definite time limit. The Trib officially starts at Rev 6:1-2. Those verses have not yet occurred because Rev 4 -5 have not yet occurred. In Jesus' words in Matt 24:29, the Trib will officially end about seven years later.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

In Rev 3:10, believers are referenced as "you." Unbelievers are referenced as "those." The Trib will be "coming on the whole world."

Jesus said, "I will keep you (believers) from the hour of trial (the 7-year Trib). We are nowhere on Earth during the Trib. We are removed from Earth.

Rev 3:10 also states exactly who will dwell on the earth during the Trib. "Those who dwell on the earth" during the Trib are proven to only be unbievers. One classic example is Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

Jesus' words in Rev 3:10, and the words in Rev 11:10 prove that we believers will not be on Earth during the 7-year Trib.

Before the Trib, 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52 will specifically go into effect to remove us from Earth. We are changed into our immortal bodies. We are then taken up and into clouds to meet Jesus for the Judgment Seat of Christ, a glorious event.

What rubbishy nonsense!
Gods holy peoples are on earth during the Great Tribulation. Indisputably proved by Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:7 and Rev12:14 & 17.

God has no intention of rapturing anyone to heaven when things get tough, Why would He? It will be our time of testing and those who fail that test of faith, will lose out.

Dan Perez · Sunday at 2:38 PM

keras said:
If you had actually read the OP, you would see that my point in calling upon the Name of the Lord, is not for our Salvation, but for our protection. Just as the three men in the furnace did and God did respond then, as He Promises to do again when we face the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath. Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:12-17. +

This promise totally obviates any need for any kind of removal, as we must stand strong in our faith and trust Him to save our lives. 1 Peter 4:12

AND the BODY of CHRIST will never be in the GREAT TRIBULATION. AND Isa 66:15-17. and Rev 6:12-17 and

and 1 Peter 4:12 was not . written. to the BODY OF CHRIST. and you are out CONTEXT. , Period. !!

dan p

Jeffrey Bowden · Sunday at 5:08 PM

keras said:
What rubbishy nonsense!
Gods holy peoples are on earth during the Great Tribulation. Indisputably proved by Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:7 and Rev12:14 & 17.

God has no intention of rapturing anyone to heaven when things get tough, Why would He? It will be our time of testing and those who fail that Who's "the woman" in Rev 12? Who are the saints in Daniel 7:25? test of faith, will lose out.

keras said:
What rubbishy nonsense!
Gods holy peoples are on earth during the Great Tribulation. Indisputably proved by Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:7 and Rev12:14 & 17.

God has no intention of rapturing anyone to heaven when things get tough, Why would He? It will be our time of testing and those who fail that test of faith, will lose out.

Keras, you are contradicting Jesus.

According to Jesus, in Rev 3:10 (BSB) ... I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Who will be kept from the Trib? You are we (believers).

Who will dwell on the earth during the Trib? Those are unbelievers in all uses of "those who dwell on the earth" in the context of the Trib. Rev 11:10 is a prime example.

Who's "the woman" in Rev 12:14,17? It's Israel.

Who are the saints in Daniel 7:25? Jews.

Rev 13:7 is about Jews and possibly more of the new converts that make up the second group of the GM in Rev 20:4.

Keras, you haven't refuted anything.

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 5:35 PM

keras said:
What rubbishy nonsense!
Gods holy peoples are on earth during the Great Tribulation. Indisputably proved by Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:7 and Rev12:14 & 17.

God has no intention of rapturing anyone to heaven when things get tough, Why would He? It will be our time of testing and those who fail that test of faith, will lose out.

If there is no Rapture of the Church, who goes into the Millennium? From what I read in Scripture when Jesus returns all those who are part of the Church are glorified and the non believers are swept away, they are the tares, then who is left to go into the Millennium for Jesus to rule over?
The only way you can have people to go into the Millennium is if the Church is taken to be with the Lord, the fullness of the Gentiles, and the veil is removed from the Jews and they will see the one they have pierced and will bend the knee along with many Gentiles become saved and those who survive the Tribulation go into the Millennium and then Jesus will rule over them. If there is no Rapture there is no Millennium.

keras · Sunday at 6:18 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
If there is no Rapture of the Church, who goes into the Millennium? From what I read in Scripture when Jesus returns all those who are part of the Church are glorified and the non believers are swept away, they are the tares, then who is left to go into the Millennium for Jesus to rule over?
The only way you can have people to go into the Millennium is if the Church is taken to be with the Lord, the fullness of the Gentiles, and the veil is removed from the Jews and they will see the one they have pierced and will bend the knee along with many Gentiles become saved and those who survive the Tribulation go into the Millennium and then Jesus will rule over them. If there is no Rapture there is no Millennium.

No one, even Billy Graham can be 'glorified' before the Judgment and their name is found in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:11-15

The people who will go with Jesus into the Millennium, are those faithful Christians kept in the place of safety on earth for the 1260 days of the GT. Rev 12:14,
They will be joined by the GT martyrs, who Jesus will bring back to life. Revelation 20:4-6

There will be no rapture to heaven, only the gathering of the Holy peoples, as per Matthew 24:30-31 & 1 Thess 4:16-17. in Jerusalem.

keras · Sunday at 6:22 PM

keras said:
Gods holy peoples are on earth during the Great Tribulation. Indisputably proved by Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:7 and Rev12:14 & 17.

Deceived, deluded and hopelessly confused believers in the false rapture theory, seem unable to read or understand the three scriptures above.

Dan Perez · Sunday at 6:41 PM

keras said:
If you had actually read the OP, you would see that my point in calling upon the Name of the Lord, is not for our Salvation, but for our protection. Just as the three men in the furnace did and God did respond then, as He Promises to do again when we face the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath. Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:12-17. +

This promise totally obviates any need for any kind of removal, as we must stand strong in our faith and trust Him to save our lives. 1 Peter 4:12

And you know what the VERB QAL. then means ??

dan p

Jeffrey Bowden · Sunday at 6:55 PM

keras said:
If you had actually read the OP, you would see that my point in calling upon the Name of the Lord, is not for our Salvation, but for our protection. Just as the three men in the furnace did and God did respond then, as He Promises to do again when we face the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath. Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:12-17. +

This promise totally obviates any need for any kind of removal, as we must stand strong in our faith and trust Him to save our lives. 1 Peter 4:12

Keras, you keep quoting 1 Peter 4:12 out of context. The context of chapter 4 is the trials and tribulations from spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Here is 1 Peter 4:12-14 (ESV): Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.

Keras, the insults for citing the name of Christ (spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ) are what Peter describes in verse 12 "as though something strange were happening to you."

It's all about spreading the Gospel, and nothing about the Trib.

Isaiah 66 is about God's wrath to be poured out upon the antichrist and his followers.

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 8:28 PM

keras said:
Deceived, deluded and hopelessly confused believers in the false rapture theory, seem unable to read or understand the three scriptures above.

I or anyone who I have ever heard has never said there will be no Christians in the Tribulation, there will be many Christians in the Tribulation but what makes you think that they are the same ones that are here before the Tribulation other than your interpretation of Scripture. The verses above talk about the saints, it does not say Church, there is a difference.

Dan Perez · Sunday at 8:43 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
The concept of the **rapture**—believers being "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air, based on 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17—appears in early Christian writings, but the modern understanding (especially the **pre-tribulation rapture**, where the church is removed before a distinct seven-year tribulation period) is debated among scholars.

All early church fathers who discussed eschatology (end times) affirmed the biblical event of believers being caught up or transformed at Christ's return. However, the majority expected this to occur **after** or **during** a period of tribulation/persecution, often linked to the visible second coming of Christ, rather than a secret pre-tribulation escape for the church alone.

### Key Figures and Teachings
- **Irenaeus of Lyons** (c. 130–202 AD), a disciple of Polycarp (who knew the Apostle John): He frequently referenced believers being "caught up" or translated (e.g., drawing parallels to Enoch and Elijah in *Against Heresies*). Some pre-tribulation advocates interpret passages like *Against Heresies* 5.29.1 ("the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this... There shall be tribulation...") as implying removal before tribulation. However, the broader context (including references to the "last contest of the righteous" and enduring the Antichrist) shows he expected the church to face tribulation before being caught up at Christ's return. Most scholars conclude he did not teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

- **Pseudo-Ephraem** (or Ephraem the Syrian, though the key text is likely later, 4th–7th century): A sermon attributed to him ("On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World") states something like: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion..." This is one of the clearest early references to a gathering **before** tribulation, and pre-tribulation proponents cite it strongly. Authorship and dating are disputed (not definitively the historical Ephraem the Syrian, d. 373 AD), but it represents an ancient expression of pre-trib ideas.

Other early writers (e.g., Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, the Didache, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas) emphasized the **imminent** return of Christ and sometimes escaping tribulation through faith, but in a general sense tied to perseverance amid persecution, not a separate pre-trib event.

### Broader Consensus
- The early church was largely **premillennial** (expecting a literal 1,000-year reign after Christ's return) and believed in a rapture/resurrection of believers.
- They did not articulate a systematic **pre-tribulation rapture** as popularized in the 19th century by figures like John Nelson Darby. Claims of widespread pre-trib teaching often rely on selective or out-of-context quotes.
- Many sources (including post-trib and amillennial perspectives) argue the rapture was always understood as post-tribulational or at Christ's visible return.
- Pretribulation advocates point to elements like imminency (any-moment return) in apostolic fathers and isolated phrases in Irenaeus or Pseudo-Ephraem as seeds of the doctrine.

In summary, early church fathers taught a "rapture" in the sense of believers meeting the Lord (per Scripture), but not typically the modern pre-tribulation version. The clearest potential pre-trib hint comes from Pseudo-Ephraem, while figures like Irenaeus align more with enduring tribulation before the catching up. Eschatological views varied, and the full dispensational framework (including a distinct pre-trib rapture) developed much later.

And just to GOOD TO see what you are writing I will say you are a 90 percent WHERE. we are CAUGHT UP. on.

ON. 1 Thess 4:13-17. and in 2 THESS 2:1 WITH. THE WORD COMING //. PAROUSA. and found many times in. Pauls writing

and alsi in 2 Thess 2:3 which you m will see it. as AP[OSTASIA.

AND BY THE WAY read 2 Thess 2:4-12. and word NOT //. ME is a DISJUNCTIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE. and will NEVER

having believed the truth. but taken pleasure in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS

dan p

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 8:53 PM

keras said:
No one, even Billy Graham can be 'glorified' before the Judgment and their name is found in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:11-15

The people who will go with Jesus into the Millennium, are those faithful Christians kept in the place of safety on earth for the 1260 days of the GT. Rev 12:14,
They will be joined by the GT martyrs, who Jesus will bring back to life. Revelation 20:4-6

There will be no rapture to heaven, only the gathering of the Holy peoples, as per Matthew 24:30-31 & 1 Thess 4:16-17. in Jerusalem.

1 Cor 15:51-53" In an instant, in a glance of an eye, at the final trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For the perishable thing must clothe itself in imperishability. and this mortal thing must clothe itself in immortality"
If those who go into the Millenium are the same Christians that this verse talks about, then they go into the Millennium with imperishable bodies, if so why does it say in Isaiah 65:20 that one who lives only to 100 will be considered accursed, how does someone die if they are imperishable?
I think you need to consider Amillennial view that the Millennium is metaphoric not literal because your idea doesn't seem to match up with Scripture.

keras · Sunday at 9:12 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
I or anyone who I have ever heard has never said there will be no Christians in the Tribulation, there will be many Christians in the Tribulation but what makes you think that they are the same ones that are here before the Tribulation other than your interpretation of Scripture. The verses above talk about the saints, it does not say Church, there is a difference.

Revelation 13:8b-9, precludes the idea of people being converted to Christianity during the GT.
The Holy people of God ARE the Church. They are certainly not the Jews!
The 2 Witnesses will preach in that time, but without any success, they will be hated and finally killed. Rev 11:10

Jeff Saunders said:
I think you need to consider Amillennial view that the Millennium is metaphoric not literal because your idea doesn't seem to match up with Scripture.

No way; the AMill belief is a direct contradiction of Prophecy and of reality.
All my posts do is to refute your wrong beliefs.

keras · Sunday at 9:26 PM

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, you keep quoting 1 Peter 4:12 out of context. The context of chapter 4 is the trials and tribulations from spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Peter is perfectly clear; It is the fiery trial, - the Lords terrible Day of vengeance and wrath, in the context of 'The end of all things is upon us...'1 Peter 4:7, That should not surprise us.
But of course; that Day will surprise and shock everyone who fondly imagined they were going to be rrrrrrraptured!!!!!!

Jeffrey Bowden · Sunday at 11:38 PM

keras said:
Peter is perfectly clear; It is the fiery trial, - the Lords terrible Day of vengeance and wrath, in the context of 'The end of all things is upon us...'1 Peter 4:7, That should not surprise us.
But of course; that Day will surprise and shock everyone who fondly imagined they were going to be rrrrrrraptured!!!!!!

Keras, I stand on the words of Jesus in Rev 3:10. Believers will be kept from the Trib. Unbelievers will remain on Earth and be tried in the Trib.

Every judgment of large groups is conducted in the air. First is the Judgment Seat of Christ. In 2 Tim 4:8, Paul says it will happen "on that day," being the day of the pre-Trib rapture. The in-the-air setup for that judgment is 1 Th 4:17.

Rev 4:1 is unfulfilled. John was shown his vision of supernatural scenes by one angel in charge of his supernatural education. John acknowledges that truth in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

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