2Timothy 2:10-13

fli · Feb 3, 2026

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. NKJV

Above is Paul writing to Timothy instructing him in doctrine to teach the church. Note verses 1-13 where Paul states a faithful saying the Church is to be taught. Verse 11 “if we died with with Him, we shall also live with Him. Romans 8: 9-10 when we confess Jesus as our Lord and savior we are dead by God's decree. But Paul wrote “If” we died with Him. This makes our death in Jesus conditional. What is it conditional on? Verse 12 (a) if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. Paul wrote “if” we endure we will reign with Him. What do have to endure to reign with Jesus?

There are many places in the new testament where God tells us things that we will endure while in Jesus. In Hebrews 12: 7-8 if we endure chastening of God, He is treating us as sons. In Mark 4: 13-20 the parable of the sower there are 3 soils that receive the word of God.

In verse Matthew 13:20 an Mk4: 6 the stony ground receives the word with gladness, but they only endure for a time. (I was taught as a Baptist that only one soil received Jesus. The Baptist change the word of God to fit their doctrine. That is a very dangerous practice.) The stony soil stumbles after tribulation, persecution or temptations arise. Luke 8: 13 states the stony soil believes for a while, meaning they were saved for a while, but they fall away under temptation. All three agree that the stony soil endures for a time then falls away.

Matthew and Mark state that the thorny soil becomes unfruitful. (John 15:5 without Jesus the branch can do nothing, cannot produce fruit. That means if the soil has produced fruit or is even capable of producing fruit they have to be a branch on Jesus.) Luke states that the thorny ground does not bring any fruit to maturity. All three gospels agree that the thorny soil is capable of producing fruit. In all 3 gospels the stony soil does not endure due to cares of the world.

The thorny and stony soils both had reason to deny Jesus. The stony soil had cause to deny Jesus under persecution, because of being in Christ, they deny Christ in the to end the persecution. If the thorny soil put their hope for worldly pleasures over what Jesus' offers they to have denied Christ. Both types of soil did not endure.

Does this mean that we have to do work to be saved? No! 2Timothy 2:13 if we do not have enough faith to endure Christ will not deny Himself, all we need do is stand and He will take care of us. We will not suffer anything if we keep our mouth shut. Opening the mouth to deny Christ, is work, keeping it shut is not. You have to do work to deny Jesus. Christ knows your if your heart still loves what He offers. He will take you out of the situation if your heart desires Him over Satan. 2Timothy 2:13 if we do not have enough faith to endure, Christ will not deny Himself, all we need do is stand, in Christ, and He will take care of us.

We can choose to do work to bring glory to Jesus. If we choose to do work it is to walk in the Spirit and produce more fruit.

Both Jesus' parable of the soils and 2Timothy 2: 10-13 clearly defines a path for Christians to be saved or to deny Christ and have Him deny them. Christians can lose salvation by Jesus' words in the parable of the sower. That supports Paul's scriptures in 2Timothy 2: 10-13. Let's hear from the word wizards how they magically change God's word to fit their doctrine.

bling · Feb 3, 2026

We do not do good stuff to get anything, but out of a gratitude type of Godly Love we do good stuff because of what has been do for us.

fli · Feb 3, 2026

bling said:
We do not do good stuff to get anything, but out of a gratitude type of Godly Love we do good stuff because of what has been do for us.

I agree. Nothing that I have posted disagrees with that. Yet, God said that we were made to love Him and give Him glory. To do that we must do works at some point in our salvation. Once we are considered His child we are expected to act like His child. Not for salvation, but to show our love and to do works. Contrary to what most teach, we are not His child until we prove that we will let Him discipline us. If He can't discipline us, we would not be progressively sanctified.

bling · Feb 3, 2026

fli said:
I agree. Nothing that I have posted disagrees with that. Yet, God said that we were made to love Him and give Him glory. To do that we must do works at some point in our salvation. Once we are considered His child we are expected to act like His child. Not for salvation, but to show our love and to do works. Contrary to what most teach, we are not His child until we prove that we will let Him discipline us. If He can't discipline us, we would not be progressively sanctified.

Love and faith grow together and with use. The idea is not to jump out to be a missionary in Africa, but to wash the dishes at home without being asked or even letting anyone know.

fli · Feb 4, 2026

bling said:
Love and faith grow together and with use. The idea is not to jump out to be a missionary in Africa, but to wash the dishes at home without being asked or even letting anyone know.

I have heard of some fast miracles, but for me it was a long slow journey. At first, I had to read the bible daily or I didn't feel complete. I tried to read commentaries but that did not fill the void, I had to read the word. Then I was convicted to tithe. Later I joined a church that was into prison ministry, which I joined. That was with Bill Glass ministry and was every couple of months, maybe 3 times a year, I kept getting convicted in different areas. I could not just pass someone who had their hand out nor while traveling to a prison ministry could I pass by someone in trouble. It has been a long slow journey, but I have tried to endure and be faithful.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." NKJV

I truly believe that the above scripture applies to anyone that believes God's word and endures. Jesus will open His word to be understood.

bling · Feb 4, 2026

fli said:
I have heard of some fast miracles, but for me it was a long slow journey. At first, I had to read the bible daily or I didn't feel complete. I tried to read commentaries but that did not fill the void, I had to read the word. Then I was convicted to tithe. Later I joined a church that was into prison ministry, which I joined. That was with Bill Glass ministry and was every couple of months, maybe 3 times a year, I kept getting convicted in different areas. I could not just pass someone who had their hand out nor while traveling to a prison ministry could I pass by someone in trouble. It has been a long slow journey, but I have tried to endure and be faithful.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." NKJV

I truly believe that the above scripture applies to anyone that believes God's word and endures. Jesus will open His word to be understood.

My single one-day awakening happened this way:

For many years, I experienced and believed Christianity had no real down side. It was a happy, easy and rewarding life, everyone should jump in. It was a fun easy life for me and I had a great resume and wanted to add prison Bible teaching.

I use to teach “we (Christians) all sin lots of times especially lusting and cannot keep from it, but we are constantly being washed by the blood of Christ, so we are without sin in that case.” That was before I met a group of Christians that risked death for themselves and others by sinning, just any sign of not doing what Christ would be doing in that moment could result in being beaten to death. Here is what happened:

I got thrown into (volunteered to substitute teach) with the youth (13-21 age) prisoners program teaching Bible (one hour on Sunday morning to a group of 14 with three other Christians teaching groups of 14) and I was teaching three groups of “Christians”. The first group were guys (“going to school”, it is called), they start out causing trouble and getting thrown in the tank. Then they start increasingly attending the Bible services, carrying their Bible, being nice, eventually being baptized and saying they are Christian. By the time the parole board meets, they have this glowing report showing continued improvement tied to their increased spirituality and are released. These guys still carry weapons, are members of a gang, and every prisoner knows they just “went to school” to get out. The second group were converted before they went to prison (granny conversions), but on their first day they are seen watching raunchy TV, hanging with a loss group, laughing at off colored jokes, they were not always talking about Jesus and were not trying to convert others. On their first day in prison the snitches see this, the snitches talk to the Bulls who then approach these “Christians” saying: “you are not a Christian” (doing everything Christ would do) and make them a slave (often sexual) or at best a gang member. They still come to Bible study on Sunday, so they can tell Granny (who visits them Sunday afternoon) what they learned, but they are slaves (sometimes sexually) to some bull. The third group is fanatical, they stick close to each other, they: study, pray, witness to everyone, and avoid even a hint of insincerity that the snitches could see. They carry no weapons, but step between those that are being beaten especially persecuted. This group had grown over the last 3 years from just a couple of guys to now 42, but it came at a high price. Each convert had on the day he was baptized, given up the protection of his gang membership, turned over his weapons along with all his possessions (the gang owns everything including them), they were beaten if not by the gang they left, then by other gangs looking for payback and then they were watched constantly looking for any sign the snitches might interpret as weakness (anything less than what Christ would do in the situation, would result in a beating and it could lead to death). There is absolutely no privacy and these Christians never wanted to be found alone. They slept in barracks where at least one stayed awake all night praying over the others, so they could sleep without the fear of being smashed in the head in the middle of the night. These guys believed and counted on power from the Holy Spirit, I did not know existed. They come battered and bruised each week hungry for some real meaningful Christ like lesson that goes beyond their group study of 40+hours that week on the same subject, which I could not provide. They mostly helped me with my poor example of Christianity and lack of knowledge and lack of wisdom. They mentored me even though they were only Christian for a few months, but I was a poor disciple and could not keep up with them. I don’t know if I could go through what they went through.

I had many hard nights praying and crying over those young men. I Loved them and empathetically to some degree suffered with them.

They really did not talk about “not sinning”, but what better things they could be doing each and every minute of the day and night. If they did sin, even with their thoughts, they confessed immediately to everyone (all around so the snitches could hear it also), asking for help, prays and ideas on doing better, yet this was not a daily action for everyone.

fli · Feb 4, 2026

Thank you. God bless

Jan001 · Feb 4, 2026

fli said:
Does this mean that we have to do work to be saved? No! 2Timothy 2:13 if we do not have enough faith to endure Christ will not deny Himself, all we need do is stand and He will take care of us. We will not suffer anything if we keep our mouth shut. Opening the mouth to deny Christ, is work, keeping it shut is not. You have to do work to deny Jesus. Christ knows your if your heart still loves what He offers. He will take you out of the situation if your heart desires Him over Satan. 2Timothy 2:13 if we do not have enough faith to endure, Christ will not deny Himself, all we need do is stand, in Christ, and He will take care of us.

Jesus expects his followers to imitate his obedience to his Father's will; do the good works that God prepared for them to do before he created the world. Ephesians 2:10

At the Judgment, will Jesus judge us worthy to enter eternal life because we said we had faith in him to save us, or will he judge us worthy to enter eternal life because we proved we loved (had faith) in him by loving our brothers/neighbors?

We love our neighbors by doing good to them and not harming them.

Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You who are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life.”

James 2:14-17, 20, 24
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Surely that faith cannot save, can it? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
....20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is worthless?.... 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. ....For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

1 John 4:21
The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also.

God's Son will always love us. He created us along with his Father and the Holy Spirit. He cannot deny his love for us.

We can deny our love for him by choosing to be disobedient.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

We prove we love our neighbors by doing good to them and refraining from doing harm to them. Romans 13:9-10
We prove we love God, whom we cannot see, by loving our neighbors, whom we can see. 1 John 4:20

Eternal life is promised only to those who love (obey) God. 1 Corinthians 2:9

Matt5 · Feb 5, 2026

I agree with this whole works thing, but what is acceptable?

Take a look at the Christians in verse 22. They run circles around me.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

What is their crime?

Might be nice to know.

fli · Feb 5, 2026

Matt5 said:
I agree with this whole works thing, but what is acceptable?

Take a look at the Christians in verse 22. They run circles around me.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

What is their crime?

Might be nice to know.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

They are claiming that their works saved them. Salvation is entirely done by Jesus. We only do works after we reach eternal life, after we follow Jesus' voice to stay in the Spirit. We do works to please Jesus, not for salvation.

fli · Feb 5, 2026

Jan001 said:
Jesus expects his followers to imitate his obedience to his Father's will; do the good works that God prepared for them to do before he created the world. Ephesians 2:10

At the Judgment, will Jesus judge us worthy to enter eternal life because we said we had faith in him to save us, or will he judge us worthy to enter eternal life because we proved we loved (had faith) in him by loving our brothers/neighbors?

Everyone when they die the first time will be judged by one standard.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV

That is the standard at the first judgment. Those in Christ were judged when Jesus died.

Jan001 said:
We love our neighbors by doing good to them and not harming them.

Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You who are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life.”

The above judgment is the white throne judgment for the nations, not those in true Israel, after Jesus 1000-year reign on earth. Notice in Matthew 25:34 the sheep inherit a kingdom that was prepared from the foundation of the earth. It is an earthly kingdom, not a heavenly one.

Isaiah 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying. 20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. NKJV

Verse 20 sinners on the new earth from the white throne judgment of the gentiles.

Jan001 said:
James 2:14-17, 20, 24
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Surely that faith cannot save, can it? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
....20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is worthless?.... 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. ....For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

Notice in verse 9 if we have the Spirit of Jesus our body is dead. When we entered Jesus, we died with Him. The Father gives life to our mortal bodies as long as we walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit, we are doing the works God created us for.

1 John 4:21

Jan001 said:
The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also.

God's Son will always love us. He created us along with his Father and the Holy Spirit. He cannot deny his love for us.

We can deny our love for him by choosing to be disobedient.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NKJV

The commandment in 1John 4:21 is actually the commandment Jesus gave the disciples in the gospel of John.

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

In the NT we need to obey the 2 commandments above. If we obey those 2 when we die, we will die in Jesus and go to heaven. Now we do need to obey Jesus' voice to walk in the Spirit and continue to live physically and do the works created for us to do. But that is only to continue to live physically. We do not work for salvation as that is done entirely by Jesus.

Jan001 said:
Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

We prove we love our neighbors by doing good to them and refraining from doing harm to them. Romans 13:9-10
We prove we love God, whom we cannot see, by loving our neighbors, whom we can see. 1 John 4:20

Eternal life is promised only to those who love (obey) God. 1 Corinthians 2:9

John 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. NKJV

Eternal life is promised to those who believe in Him.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NKJV

There are those who have a Spiritual mind, but who do not have the faith to withdraw from their sins.

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

Notice in verse 29 there are those who went to sleep under chastisement.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. NKJV

They did love Jesus and what He offered. They did not have the faith to face withdrawal from their sin. Because they wanted to obey Jesus, He could not deny them. They died, went to sleep, and went to heaven. When Paul says a Christian went to sleep, he means they died physically and went to heaven.

Hentenza · Feb 5, 2026

Matt5 said:
I agree with this whole works thing, but what is acceptable?

Take a look at the Christians in verse 22. They run circles around me.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

What is their crime?

Might be nice to know.

They were false prophets.

““Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 7:15 (NASB2020) - “Beware of the false prophets, who | YouVersion

“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

bible.com

fli · Feb 5, 2026

Hentenza said:
They were false prophets.

““Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 7:15 (NASB2020) - “Beware of the false prophets, who | YouVersion

“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

bible.com

You are correct. They were claiming to be Christians. Their doctrine is a works-based doctrine. Their testimony of Jesus will lead people to believe they are saved by their works such as speaking in tongues, slaying people in the spirit and doing miracles.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." NKJV

I went to a full gospel church. They told me that to be saved I had to speak in tongues. Before someone thinks I said something that I did not say. I do believe that God can still give all the gifts. We are still saved without the manifest gifts of the first century church. If He gives one a tongues gift they do not have to practice speaking in tongues, it just comes out.

Jan001 · Feb 5, 2026

fli said:
Everyone when they die the first time will be judged by one standard.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV

That is the standard at the first judgment. Those in Christ were judged when Jesus died.

What do you think "believes in him" means?

Jan001 · Feb 5, 2026

fli said:
The above judgment is the white throne judgment for the nations, not those in true Israel, after Jesus 1000-year reign on earth. Notice in Matthew 25:34 the sheep inherit a kingdom that was prepared from the foundation of the earth. It is an earthly kingdom, not a heavenly one.

The white throne judgment and the sheep and goats judgment are the same event, depicted by two viewpoints. This one judgment will be at the end of time. Likewise, there was only one passion and death of Jesus Christ, but the gospel writers each had their own viewpoint of this event.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

Danthemailman · Feb 5, 2026

In regard to 2 Timothy 2:12, we have a
contrast with, "if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him -- AND -- If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

So, in contrast, the latter "deny Him and faithless" points to the opposite of died with Him, endure and reign with Him. Jesus Himself warned of the danger of denying Him in Matthew 10:33 - "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.." To "deny him" here does not point merely to a temporary weakness of faith, as in the case of Peter who denied Jesus three times during a moment of weakness (Luke 22:54-62), but is referring to life in it's entirety. The inevitable result is that "He will also deny us."

The warning is repeated in the final sentence, "if we are faithless, he abides faithful." To be "faithless" is in the present tense and denotes this as the habitual attitude, not a temporary lapse of faith. But in contrast to human faithlessness, He remains faithful" to His word and righteous character and His warning that unbelievers will be rejected.

Jan001 · Feb 5, 2026

fli said:
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

Notice in verse 9 if we have the Spirit of Jesus our body is dead. When we entered Jesus, we died with Him. The Father gives life to our mortal bodies as long as we walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit, we are doing the works God created us for.

We can choose to obey our fleshly desires and be condemned, both body and soul, to the lake of fire, or else we can choose to obey the Holy Spirit, who will then make our bodies immortal and incorruptible after our resurrection at the end of time.

Jan001 · Feb 5, 2026

fli said:
In the NT we need to obey the 2 commandments above. If we obey those 2 when we die, we will die in Jesus and go to heaven. Now we do need to obey Jesus' voice to walk in the Spirit and continue to live physically and do the works created for us to do. But that is only to continue to live physically. We do not work for salvation as that is done entirely by Jesus.

A person's works are what is judged to determine if he was a faithful follower of Jesus Christ. A person's works are what is judged to determine if he truly believed in Jesus Christ.

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Matthew 25:31-46

Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Timothy 4:16
Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

Jan001 · Feb 5, 2026

fli said:
They did love Jesus and what He offered. They did not have the faith to face withdrawal from their sin. Because they wanted to obey Jesus, He could not deny them. They died, went to sleep, and went to heaven. When Paul says a Christian went to sleep, he means they died physically and went to heaven.

They said that they loved Jesus Christ, but they were liars because they did not keep/obey his commandments.

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

What happens to all liars?

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, those who commit murder, the sexually immoral, those who practice the occult, idolaters, and all liars—their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.”

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their deeds they deny him. They are vile and disobedient and unqualified for any good deed.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.

Christ loves all his creation; therefore, he cannot say that he does not love all of mankind.

However, he will prevent an unrepentant sinner from entering into eternal life with him, his Father, and the Holy Spirit.

fli · Feb 5, 2026

Jan001 said:
What do you think "believes in him" means?

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; 7 as you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf, 8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit. NKJV

If we believe the gospel and we want to go to heaven it will give us hope. From that hope Jesus gives us our saving faith, love for the saints and other gifts. Our hope proves that we believe in Him.

Jan001 said:
A person's works are what is judged to determine if he was a faithful follower of Jesus Christ. A person's works are what is judged to determine if he truly believed in Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. NKJV

I posted John 3:18 in my post that you replied to we are judged only on our faith in Jesus

Romans 4:5 (a) But to him who does not work(b) but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." NKJV

Verse 5a " to him who does not work" does not refer to unemployed people. In Jesus we rest from working to get into heaven. Why do we rest from working to get into heaven? Because our righteousness comes from Jesus. Verse 5b ""but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly." Why do we need to believe that God justifies the ungodly? Because then we know that our works have nothing to do with our salvation.

Verse 6 God imputes righteousness to us apart from works. Good works do not change our righteousness. Bad works do not change our righteousness.
Verse 7 Our sins are forgiven and they are no more.

Verse 8 God has imputed death to everyone in Jesus. (Romans 8: 10) A dead person is not under the law as dead people have already paid for their sins.

Jan001 said:
They said that they loved Jesus Christ, but they were liars because they did not keep/obey his commandments.

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

The commandments we are to keep are not those in the OT. We died to the law. In Jesus, He gave us 2 new commandments. Those are written in 1John 3:18-24.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. NKJV

Just to prove that the second commandment is not to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, we are to love the brethren, other Christians.

Jan001 said:
Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, those who commit murder, the sexually immoral, those who practice the occult, idolaters, and all liars—their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.”

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their deeds they deny him. They are vile and disobedient and unqualified for any good deed.

I knew that you did not believe Romans 4:5.

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