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Call upon the Name of the Lord and you shall be Saved.

Jeff Saunders

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Rom 8:1" Therefore there is no condemnation for those in Christ"
Do you believe that the Father is infinite? If so then anything that we as mortal men can come up with, the Godhead is always bigger, better, more powerful, more loving that anything we can come up with.
I have the opinion that those who were closest to the origin of the New Testament understood the culture and language {Greek} than we do today reading an English translation of the original, that is why their writing on what Scripture meant carries more weight than that of many of modern day thinking. I seems to me that the views that are promoted in much of "Christian thinking" are from Augustine and those after him who did not know Greek but used a faulty Latin translation and are in error in many ways.
I follow pre-Augustine thinking, for me they align more with the character and nature of the Father as Jesus showed us.
I listen to some Orthodox teachers and one said that they do not try to describe God but they want to know him so well they will know what is not of God and not follow those who have misrepresented Him.
1 John 4:14 The Father sent His Son to be the Savior of the world. I and some of the early Church fathers believe this to be a statement of fact, not a possibility or a hopeful idea. From what I can see you do not believe this Scripturally proven statement, does that make you prone to a more severe judgement? I don't think you are because we all have error in our understanding of the Godhead and the Father knew that before he created the world but still made the declaration Jesus is the Savior of the world, even when we get things wrong about the Fathers plan, that does not negate his plan, no man can stop what the Father is going to do. 1 Tim 4:9-11 " because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe"
 
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keras

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Rom 8:1" Therefore there is no condemnation for those in Christ"
This does not mean a Christian won't be judged. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 says how it will be when everyone is Judged.
Those who built their expectations on faulty foundations will be saved, but only just.

As for the ECF's, they are great for insights of salvation issues, but useless about end time Prophecy. Why? -
Daniel 12:4 & 9....these Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Rom 8:1" Therefore there is no condemnation for those in Christ"
Do you believe that the Father is infinite? If so then anything that we as mortal men can come up with, the Godhead is always bigger, better, more powerful, more loving that anything we can come up with.
I have the opinion that those who were closest to the origin of the New Testament understood the culture and language {Greek} than we do today reading an English translation of the original, that is why their writing on what Scripture meant carries more weight than that of many of modern day thinking. I seems to me that the views that are promoted in much of "Christian thinking" are from Augustine and those after him who did not know Greek but used a faulty Latin translation and are in error in many ways.
I follow pre-Augustine thinking, for me they align more with the character and nature of the Father as Jesus showed us.
I listen to some Orthodox teachers and one said that they do not try to describe God but they want to know him so well they will know what is not of God and not follow those who have misrepresented Him.
1 John 4:14 The Father sent His Son to be the Savior of the world. I and some of the early Church fathers believe this to be a statement of fact, not a possibility or a hopeful idea. From what I can see you do not believe this Scripturally proven statement, does that make you prone to a more severe judgement? I don't think you are because we all have error in our understanding of the Godhead and the Father knew that before he created the world but still made the declaration Jesus is the Savior of the world, even when we get things wrong about the Fathers plan, that does not negate his plan, no man can stop what the Father is going to do. 1 Tim 4:9-11 " because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe"
Well-stated.

The Trib will present two proposals to each inhabitant of the earth: repent or face eternal condemnation. Therefore, before the Trib, Romans 8:1 automatically precludes every believer from entering the Trib.

There are hundreds of millions of new converts in the Trib. That is largely from the ministry of the 144k. The 2W will also contribute.

In Rev 6:9, the souls under the altar are the first group of martyrs in the Trib. Those new converts will be saved with help from the 144k, to the glory of God Almighty!

In Rev 6:11, they are told to wait until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

That second group of martyrs in the Trib will be found in Rev 20:4. In the last sentence of that verse, all of the souls under the altar are resurrected and taken to Heaven. They appear in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17. They are before the throne of God in verse 9 and in verse 10 the first word in their song is "Salvation," thanking God for their salvation from the Trib.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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This does not mean a Christian won't be judged. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 says how it will be when everyone is Judged.
Those who built their expectations on faulty foundations will be saved, but only just.

As for the ECF's, they are great for insights of salvation issues, but useless about end time Prophecy. Why? -
Daniel 12:4 & 9....these Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end.
Acts 2:17 Luke says we are in the last days, what makes you think that the early church fathers who had the mostly the same Scriptures that you and I read, only they had the original language not a translation, are useless about end time Prophecy?
Daniel could have been talking about the last days as those after Jesus, how long is the time of the end? Is it one decade, one century, or a millennium? We are not told so anything we come up with is a guess, maybe an educated guess but still a guess, maybe we have been in the time of the end for this whole eon.
If you go on Youtube look up a guy Ken Johnson he has translated some of the writings of the early church fathers and they talked alot about Prophecy, so it seems arrogant to think that the early church fathers did not understand Prophecy, but we understand it better, maybe we do but maybe we don't, we must be humble and know we see things through a glass dimly.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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This does not mean a Christian won't be judged. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 says how it will be when everyone is Judged.
Those who built their expectations on faulty foundations will be saved, but only just.

As for the ECF's, they are great for insights of salvation issues, but useless about end time Prophecy. Why? -
Daniel 12:4 & 9....these Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end.
My question to you is what man is the arbitrator of faulty foundations? Are we not all going to stand before the Father and be judged by him? You are not going to judge me and I am not going to judge you, but we each must give account for what we do and say and no mortal man gets it correct 100% of the time.
We must be humble and let the Father be the judge, buts its ok He does nothing that is not out of love and if we have some things wrong he will correct us by whatever means he feels we need to be in line with him.
I understand that this is easier for me to say because I do not believe the Father changes his love for us when our mortal body dies, he will keep pursuing us even after our temporary mortal body is dead, we are not our body, he will not stop till all are found.
If you think the the Father will torcher you for ever if you get things wrong and there is no " second chance" then you live in fear that everything is just correct because once your mortal body is dead its over you are either in or out and that's it, so you better be darn sure that you have it all correct.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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This does not mean a Christian won't be judged. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 says how it will be when everyone is Judged.
Those who built their expectations on faulty foundations will be saved, but only just.

As for the ECF's, they are great for insights of salvation issues, but useless about end time Prophecy. Why? -
Daniel 12:4 & 9....these Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end.
Keras, there are three relevant judgments. Two of them prove they will occur in the air. It's therefore an extremely high probability that all three will occur in the air.

Furthermore, each person is judged just once. Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV): And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Notice, it says "the judgment" (singular) and not "the judgments" (plural). Every person is judged just once.

There are three judgments that will occur. Let's look at these judgments in the order they will occur.

1. The Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10) which 2 Tim 4:8 proves will occur on the day of the pre-Trib rapture ("on that day"). The next verse holds the proof it will occur in the air: 1 Th 4:17 (ESV): Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

2. Matt 25:31-32 (ESV): “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

This judgment will take place after Armageddon. The folks tried are Jews and the survivors of the Trib. It is held that Matt 24:31 begins this gathering.

3. The third judgment is the Great White Throne of Judgment. Its theme is "the dead" (those who died in sin).

Rev 20:11-12 (NIV): Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Verse 11 says, in part: ... earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

Therefore, there will be no ground for those folks to stand on. Those folks will be in the air.

Every person is judged once, and in the air.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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This does not mean a Christian won't be judged. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 says how it will be when everyone is Judged.
Those who built their expectations on faulty foundations will be saved, but only just.

As for the ECF's, they are great for insights of salvation issues, but useless about end time Prophecy. Why? -
Daniel 12:4 & 9....these Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end.

My question to you is what man is the arbitrator of faulty foundations? Are we not all going to stand before the Father and be judged by him? You are not going to judge me and I am not going to judge you, but we each must give account for what we do and say and no mortal man gets it correct 100% of the time.
We must be humble and let the Father be the judge, buts its ok He does nothing that is not out of love and if we have some things wrong he will correct us by whatever means he feels we need to be in line with him.
I understand that this is easier for me to say because I do not believe the Father changes his love for us when our mortal body dies, he will keep pursuing us even after our temporary mortal body is dead, we are not our body, he will not stop till all are found.
If you think the the Father will torcher you for ever if you get things wrong and there is no " second chance" then you live in fear that everything is just correct because once your mortal body is dead its over you are either in or out and that's it, so you better be darn sure that you have it all correct.
Believers will have to account, but it will not occur against any potential condemnation. The Judgment Seat of Christ is a loving look at your life, which explains why certain things went as they did, both good and bad.
My question to you is what man is the arbitrator of faulty foundations? Are we not all going to stand before the Father and be judged by him? You are not going to judge me and I am not going to judge you, but we each must give account for what we do and say and no mortal man gets it correct 100% of the time.
We must be humble and let the Father be the judge, buts its ok He does nothing that is not out of love and if we have some things wrong he will correct us by whatever means he feels we need to be in line with him.
I understand that this is easier for me to say because I do not believe the Father changes his love for us when our mortal body dies, he will keep pursuing us even after our temporary mortal body is dead, we are not our body, he will not stop till all are found.
If you think the the Father will torcher you for ever if you get things wrong and there is no " second chance" then you live in fear that everything is just correct because once your mortal body is dead its over you are either in or out and that's it, so you better be darn sure that you have it all correct.
Jeff, all folks who have died (believers and unbelievers) have gone to Hades or Paradise.

Hades is for unbelievers and it's described in Luke 16:19-24. Keras will argue that this is a made-up story because it doesn't align with his made-up Preterism.

Jesus said on the cross that when believers die, they go to Paradise. Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

There's an obvious future projection for every person upon death. If they go to Hades, they are ultimately headed for Hell. If they go to Paradise, they are ultimately headed for Heaven. Each person is ultimately judged just once.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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The Lord is the Judge. I am entirely quoting His Words in #14. Paraphrasing does NOT change their meaning.
But those who promote theories and ideas which are not scripturally proved, are at risk of a more severe judgment. James 3:1
Keras, why do you validate Preterism when its core beliefs are demonstrably false?
 
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keras

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Keras, why do you validate Preterism when its core beliefs are demonstrably false?
Provide an instance where I make a preterist statement.
I reject the idea of most Prophecy being fulfilled.
 
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I am not part of the group who believes its only true if Western Scripture says so, Scripture has and is used to prove all kinds of things that are not true. I look at Scripture and how it was interpreted from the people who were closest to the original culture and languages. Many of the early church fathers taught that the millennium is going to be a physical rule of Jesus on the earth for 1000 years, I believe that they are correct. From that I work backwards to " prove" that the pre trib rapture is the only scenario that makes sense of the whole of Scripture. If the Millennium is literal, who is Jesus going to rule over? Paul says that those who remain until Jesus comes back are transformed into our heavenly bodies our glorified bodies, the wicked will be gathered up for judgement. This leaves no one left to go into the Millennium, The Christians will rule with Jesus and the wicked are judged as tares. If Jesus comes and takes the Christians at the fullness of the Gentiles, the world will be judged and all will be left is non believers, that is when the veil is lifted from the Jews and they will see the one they have pierced and many will believe along with the religious people who did not truly follow Jesus. I ask myself if the Church is still here for the Tribulation why would The Father have 144000 Jews be his witness when that's the job of the Church, that's a slap to the face of the Church, and how will they be witnesses while the veil is still on if the fullness of the Gentiles is still no compleet? The two witnesses would have more opposition from the " Christians" than from the world, even now the Church fights more with itself than it does with the world, but if the Church is in heaven with Jesus this is a non issue. For me the only scenario that puts all the puzzle pieces together is this- Jesus comes in the clouds and calls all those who are his home ( Phil 3:20 our citizenship is in heaven} the Church is gone, Jacobs trouble begins the two witnesses and the 144000 Jews are now the Fathers witnesses and all those who follow Jesus and make it through the tribulation go into the Millennium and they are under the rule of Jesus with the help from the glorified saints. This is the only view that I can see that puts all things into place.
If Humans never go to heaven why are we citizens of a place we never go, that makes no sense. What did Jesus mean by in my Fathers house there are many dwelling places and I go there to prepare a place for you, does the Father have another home?
These are the things that I have gleaned from the writings of the early Church fathers and how they understood Scripture.
Well, you only picked certain ECF because they did not all agree with what you say, and you are superimposing onto what they did say your already perceived view. Regardless of the claim of only using the ECF as your source. They do not necessarily mean what you think they mean iow. Only the Bible is inspired and inerrant. The ECF's are not. Taking history into account in interpretation of the Bible is a proper hermeneutic. That means the cultural and historic situation at the time of the writing. How the first hearers would understand it. Not how the ECF's would understand it. Rev is a good example of the need for that hermeneutic. It is a letter written to seven churches and is dealing with things they are going through. They are also a mixture of Jews, Jewish converts, and Gentiles.

You say that the ECF's considered the millennium literal. Does that automatically mean that the 1000 years is literal? This is a common mistake when people argue against amillennialism, as referring to no millennium---which is of course what the word means. But it does see the millennium as literal---it is real---but the number 1000 is not literal as Rev testifies to within itself as a book of truths symbolically portrayed, including the numbers. The meaning of the symbolic images and representatives are found within the OT itself---and this is something the original recipients would be familiar with.

The thousand years in this view represents a long period of time which only God knows the duration of because he is the one who determines it. The entirety of Scripture and Rev specifically if it is not read as a massive enigmatic puzzle to solve in order to determine when we escape tribulation---not just the end times eschatological explicitly---demonstrate it is likely the time period between the first and second coming. We are in a tribulation. It will get worse for his people, the church, Jew and Gentile alike, regarding persecution the closer we get to his return. Rev is given to us for the same reason it was given to the seven churches. To encourage them to stand fast in their faith and cling to him. That no matter what was occurring on earth, not matter how much it looked like God was powerless in the face of evil, things were going exactly according to his purpose, and even if they died for their faith, yet they would live.

None of those receiving that letter was raptured out of tribulation. So how would such an idea have applied to them? If that is what they thought, it would be as though they were being lied to. The book of Rev is given to all Christians of all times for the same reason. To encourage and strengthen.

There is so much in your assessment of the situation above that violates Scripture, that I am not going to untangle it. I simply suggest that you take a look at other views with a willingness to listen and learn, instead of clinging to the one tired old dispensational pre-trib, pre-mil view. I recommend A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger. It is very comprehensive and yet an easy read. It is in there that he sets the views side by side and shows exactly where pre-mil dispensationalism is in conflict with Scripture.
 
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keras

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How many times have you claimed the first five seals have already been opened?
That the Seals of war, famine, plague and economic disaster are open now, is obvious from how all those things have and still are happening.
The Fifth Seal is the proof, all the millions of Christian martyrs since Stephen.

The next Prophesied event has to be the Sixth Seal, which will reset our civilization and allow all the things that must happen before Jesus Returns. to take place.
Anyone who thinks they will be raptured to heaven, is deceived and deluded, as the Lords Day of fiery wrath, will come upon everyone the whole world over.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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That the Seals of war, famine, plague and economic disaster are open now, is obvious from how all those things have and still are happening.
The Fifth Seal is the proof, all the millions of Christian martyrs since Stephen.

The next Prophesied event has to be the Sixth Seal, which will reset our civilization and allow all the things that must happen before Jesus Returns. to take place.
Anyone who thinks they will be raptured to heaven, is deceived and deluded, as the Lords Day of fiery wrath, will come upon everyone the whole world over.
Jesus said in Rev 3:10 that "you" (believers) will be kept from the Trib that will come over the whole world to try "those" (unbelievers) who dwell on the earth. Do you deny what Jesus meant?

1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52 all work together to effect the pre-Trib rapture of all believers.

1 Th 4:17 will position us behind clouds and in the air for the Judgment Seat of Christ, which Paul says in 2 Tim 4:8 will occur "on that day" (the day of the pre-Trib rapture).

The seals will be opened after the pre-Trib rapture (Rev 4:1). Are you going to again claim that Rev 4:1 was only for Apostle John when it's been proven he only saw Heaven through the supernatural scenes he was treated to by one angel (Rev 1:1 and Rev 21:8)?

Rev 5 is about a very solemn ceremony that we believers wiĺl aĺl be present for after the pre-Trib rapture (Rev 4:1). It is only after that ceremony, that the Bible says the seals will be opened. Do you deny that Rev 5 will be a future event that all believers wiĺl attend to witness the opening of the seals in Rev 6?
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Well, you only picked certain ECF because they did not all agree with what you say, and you are superimposing onto what they did say your already perceived view. Regardless of the claim of only using the ECF as your source. They do not necessarily mean what you think they mean iow. Only the Bible is inspired and inerrant. The ECF's are not. Taking history into account in interpretation of the Bible is a proper hermeneutic. That means the cultural and historic situation at the time of the writing. How the first hearers would understand it. Not how the ECF's would understand it. Rev is a good example of the need for that hermeneutic. It is a letter written to seven churches and is dealing with things they are going through. They are also a mixture of Jews, Jewish converts, and Gentiles.

You say that the ECF's considered the millennium literal. Does that automatically mean that the 1000 years is literal? This is a common mistake when people argue against amillennialism, as referring to no millennium---which is of course what the word means. But it does see the millennium as literal---it is real---but the number 1000 is not literal as Rev testifies to within itself as a book of truths symbolically portrayed, including the numbers. The meaning of the symbolic images and representatives are found within the OT itself---and this is something the original recipients would be familiar with.

The thousand years in this view represents a long period of time which only God knows the duration of because he is the one who determines it. The entirety of Scripture and Rev specifically if it is not read as a massive enigmatic puzzle to solve in order to determine when we escape tribulation---not just the end times eschatological explicitly---demonstrate it is likely the time period between the first and second coming. We are in a tribulation. It will get worse for his people, the church, Jew and Gentile alike, regarding persecution the closer we get to his return. Rev is given to us for the same reason it was given to the seven churches. To encourage them to stand fast in their faith and cling to him. That no matter what was occurring on earth, not matter how much it looked like God was powerless in the face of evil, things were going exactly according to his purpose, and even if they died for their faith, yet they would live.

None of those receiving that letter was raptured out of tribulation. So how would such an idea have applied to them? If that is what they thought, it would be as though they were being lied to. The book of Rev is given to all Christians of all times for the same reason. To encourage and strengthen.

There is so much in your assessment of the situation above that violates Scripture, that I am not going to untangle it. I simply suggest that you take a look at other views with a willingness to listen and learn, instead of clinging to the one tired old dispensational pre-trib, pre-mil view. I recommend A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger. It is very comprehensive and yet an easy read. It is in there that he sets the views side by side and shows exactly where pre-mil dispensationalism is in conflict with Scripture.
You say only the Bible is inspired and inerrant, do believe that the Bible is the only words the Father through the Holy Spirit gave to man? Is the Father silent after John put the last period in Revelation? Why did Jesus and the disciples quote from non canonical books and those quotes are in scripture? All truth is the Fathers truth, if it is true it is of the Father if it is a lie it is of the enemy, You say the the ECF are not inspired, how do you know? Show me in Scripture that only 66 books chosen by man are from the Father and all other writings are not, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has many more books that they call Scripture the Latin Roman Church has chosen 66 books for the tradition that they established the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has many more that in their tradition are Scripture, who is correct?, the only books that Jesus called Scripture was the OT, which never said to write a NT, you have to go on faith that man was following the Holy Spirit and whatever tradition you follow you follow out of a heart of learning and striving the know the Trinity and becoming more and more dead to self and more conformed to Jesus. I believe the Father is still at work today and he still speaks to people today, if so are his words that he spoke to the writers of the NT from one part of his being and when he speaks today from another or is all of the Fathers words carrying the same weight, does the Father have inspired thoughts and uninspired thought?
I believe that all that the Father speaks to humans or to his heavenly beings are all the same, and he is still speaking to humans today and guiding us into the truth, that is why I place weight on what the ECF taught, did they get everything correct? no no man does, The Trinity is infinite we are finite anything that we come up with will always be short, the finite can't comprehend the totality of the infinite.
The Church for the first 300 years till Augustine taught that the premillennial view was the correct way to read Scripture, there were a few that did not agree and taught Amillennialism but they were few and in the minority.
### Premillennialism (Literal 1000-Year Reign) in the Early Church

Premillennialism, also known as chiliasm, was the predominant eschatological view in the first three centuries of Christianity. This perspective interprets Revelation 20 literally, expecting Christ to return and establish a physical, earthly kingdom lasting 1,000 years before the final judgment and eternal state. It was widely held by many early church fathers, often tied to expectations of Christ's imminent return and a future restoration.

| Papias of Hierapolis | c. 70–155 AD | A disciple of John the Apostle (according to Irenaeus), Papias taught a literal millennium with earthly abundance and Christ's reign. He influenced others like Irenaeus. |
| Epistle of Barnabas (attributed, not the apostle) | Late 1st–early 2nd century | Describes a future earthly rest after six "days" of creation (symbolizing 6,000 years), followed by a millennial sabbath, implying a literal reign. While some debate its exact millennial stance, it aligns with premillennial expectations. |
| Justin Martyr | c. 100–165 AD | In *Dialogue with Trypho*, he affirmed a literal 1,000-year reign in a rebuilt Jerusalem, based on Revelation and Old Testament prophets like Isaiah and Ezekiel. He noted that not all Christians agreed but described it as the view of "right-minded Christians." |
| Irenaeus of Lyons | c. 130–202 AD | A student of Polycarp (who knew John), Irenaeus defended premillennialism in *Against Heresies*, describing a literal earthly kingdom where the righteous reign with Christ for 1,000 years after the resurrection. |
| Tertullian | c. 155–240 AD | In *Against Marcion*, he supported a literal millennium, emphasizing Christ's physical reign on earth after His return. |
| Hippolytus of Rome | c. 170–235 AD | Wrote extensively on eschatology, affirming a literal 1,000-year reign following the Antichrist's defeat. |
| Commodianus | c. 240 AD | Described a future millennial kingdom in his poetic works, aligning with premillennial views. |
| Victorinus of Pettau | d. c. 303/304 AD | In his commentary on Revelation, he interpreted the millennium literally as a time of earthly peace under Christ's rule. |
| Others (less detailed evidence) | Various | Figures like Melito of Sardis (d. c. 180), Theophilus of Antioch (d. c. 183), Julius Africanus (c. 160–240), Methodius of Olympus (d. c. 311), and Lactantius (c. 250–325) also held premillennial views, often emphasizing a future earthly kingdom. |

Historians like Philip Schaff note that premillennialism was the prevailing view for the first 300 years, though it was not universal and often lacked the dispensational distinctions seen in modern versions.

### Amillennialism in the Early Church

Amillennialism views the "1,000 years" in Revelation 20 symbolically, representing the current church age between Christ's first and second comings, with no literal earthly millennium. This perspective was a minority view in the first 300 years and emerged primarily through the allegorical interpretation methods of the Alexandrian school. It was not fully systematized until Augustine in the 5th century, who is often called the "Father of Amillennialism." Early hints appear in anti-chiliastic (anti-literal millennium) writings, but clear proponents are fewer and later in this period.


| Alogi (a group rejecting John's writings) | 2nd century | Rejected Revelation entirely, implicitly opposing literal millennial interpretations. |
| Caius (or Gaius) of Rome | Early 3rd century | Criticized chiliasm and rejected a literal millennium, attributing Revelation's authorship issues to heretics. |
| Clement of Alexandria | c. 150–215 AD | Favored allegorical interpretation of Scripture, denying a physical earthly kingdom and laying groundwork for symbolic views of the millennium. |
| Origen | c. 185–254 AD | Pioneered extensive allegorical exegesis, rejecting literal premillennialism as "carnal" and interpreting the millennium spiritually as the current reign of Christ in believers' hearts. His influence was pivotal in shifting away from literal views. |
| Cyprian of Carthage | c. 200–258 AD | Emphasized spiritual interpretations, rejecting a future earthly millennium. |
| Dionysius of Alexandria | c. 190–265 AD | Argued against literal interpretations of Revelation, calling it non-literal and possibly not by John, thus supporting an amillennial-like view. |

Sources indicate that amillennialism gained traction in the 3rd century, influenced by Neo-Platonism and opposition to overly literal (sometimes heretical) chiliastic groups like the Montanists. However, it was not the majority position until after Constantine's era. Many early fathers, even if rejecting a national restoration of Israel, still held to a literal millennium—highlighting that full amillennialism was embryonic at best.

Even the Essenes from before Jesus believed that the Father created the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th and that the time of man was divided up into ages, Three- 2000 years ages and the last age being 1000 years that the earth would rest, and every prophecy that they made was 100% correct.
When we read Scripture we are to try to figure out what is literal and what is allegorical, The Father did not tell us so we must pray and study and be led by the Holy Spirit and try our best to understand what the Father is doing and has done and will do. We are all trying, with finite brains, to understand an infinite Trinity, but if we get things wrong the Father is big enough to handle it and we rest in the fact that He is a loving Father and all his actions are out of love for us and it will be ok in the end.
The Trinity knew what they were doing before any of this cosmos was created and like Phil 2:10-11 " Every knee should bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord" so it will be ok in the end, the Father knew what he was doing.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Well, you only picked certain ECF because they did not all agree with what you say, and you are superimposing onto what they did say your already perceived view. Regardless of the claim of only using the ECF as your source. They do not necessarily mean what you think they mean iow. Only the Bible is inspired and inerrant. The ECF's are not. Taking history into account in interpretation of the Bible is a proper hermeneutic. That means the cultural and historic situation at the time of the writing. How the first hearers would understand it. Not how the ECF's would understand it. Rev is a good example of the need for that hermeneutic. It is a letter written to seven churches and is dealing with things they are going through. They are also a mixture of Jews, Jewish converts, and Gentiles.

You say that the ECF's considered the millennium literal. Does that automatically mean that the 1000 years is literal? This is a common mistake when people argue against amillennialism, as referring to no millennium---which is of course what the word means. But it does see the millennium as literal---it is real---but the number 1000 is not literal as Rev testifies to within itself as a book of truths symbolically portrayed, including the numbers. The meaning of the symbolic images and representatives are found within the OT itself---and this is something the original recipients would be familiar with.

The thousand years in this view represents a long period of time which only God knows the duration of because he is the one who determines it. The entirety of Scripture and Rev specifically if it is not read as a massive enigmatic puzzle to solve in order to determine when we escape tribulation---not just the end times eschatological explicitly---demonstrate it is likely the time period between the first and second coming. We are in a tribulation. It will get worse for his people, the church, Jew and Gentile alike, regarding persecution the closer we get to his return. Rev is given to us for the same reason it was given to the seven churches. To encourage them to stand fast in their faith and cling to him. That no matter what was occurring on earth, not matter how much it looked like God was powerless in the face of evil, things were going exactly according to his purpose, and even if they died for their faith, yet they would live.

None of those receiving that letter was raptured out of tribulation. So how would such an idea have applied to them? If that is what they thought, it would be as though they were being lied to. The book of Rev is given to all Christians of all times for the same reason. To encourage and strengthen.

There is so much in your assessment of the situation above that violates Scripture, that I am not going to untangle it. I simply suggest that you take a look at other views with a willingness to listen and learn, instead of clinging to the one tired old dispensational pre-trib, pre-mil view. I recommend A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger. It is very comprehensive and yet an easy read. It is in there that he sets the views side by side and shows exactly where pre-mil dispensationalism is in conflict with Scripture.
here is more of what I found-


### Key Points from Early Sources
- The Apostle John himself provides no recorded statements on this topic outside the text of Revelation. Early church traditions attribute Revelation to him (e.g., via Irenaeus, who linked it to John through Polycarp), but nothing in surviving writings or fragments from John suggests he labeled non-literal interpreters as immature.
- The closest related statement comes from **Justin Martyr** (c. 100–165 AD), a second-century apologist, in his *Dialogue with Trypho* (chapter 80). He wrote:
> "But I and others, who are **right-minded Christians** on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem... And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem..."

Justin affirmed a literal millennium based on Revelation and linked it to John's prophecy. He described premillennial believers (those holding the literal view) as "right-minded Christians" (or "orthodox/pious" in some translations), implying that the view was standard among faithful believers in his time. However:
- He acknowledged that "many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise" about the millennium—showing tolerance for differing views without calling dissenters immature.
- He did **not** attribute this sentiment to John himself.

### Later Developments and Shifts in Interpretation
- Early premillennialists like Papias (c. 70–155 AD, who claimed to have heard from those who knew John), Irenaeus (c. 130–202 AD, disciple of Polycarp who knew John), and others defended a literal millennium without invoking John's authority to disparage non-literal views as immature.
- The shift away from literal interpretations came later, primarily through the Alexandrian school (e.g., Origen, c. 185–254 AD), who favored allegorical readings and sometimes critiqued literal ("carnal" or "sensual") millennial expectations as overly materialistic or simplistic—not immature per se, but philosophically inferior.
- Augustine (later, 4th–5th century) popularized amillennialism by interpreting the 1,000 years symbolically as the current church age, but even he did not frame opposition in terms of John's alleged words about immaturity.

### Where Might This Claim Come From?
This idea appears to be a modern misattribution or exaggeration, possibly stemming from:
- Premillennial advocates emphasizing Justin's "right-minded Christians" phrasing to argue that literal interpretation was the early "orthodox" view.
- Polemical discussions in eschatology debates (e.g., dispensational premillennialism vs. amillennialism), where historical quotes get reframed or combined inaccurately.
- No primary sources connect such a statement directly to John.

In summary, while some early fathers (influenced by apostolic tradition) strongly favored literal readings of Revelation's millennial prophecy, no evidence exists that John himself dismissed non-literal interpreters as immature Christians. The claim does not hold up historically.
 
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Arial-byGrace

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You say only the Bible is inspired and inerrant, do believe that the Bible is the only words the Father through the Holy Spirit gave to man? Is the Father silent after John put the last period in Revelation? Why did Jesus and the disciples quote from non canonical books and those quotes are in scripture? All truth is the Fathers truth, if it is true it is of the Father if it is a lie it is of the enemy, You say the the ECF are not inspired, how do you know? Show me in Scripture that only 66 books chosen by man are from the Father and all other writings are not, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has many more books that they call Scripture the Latin Roman Church has chosen 66 books for the tradition that they established the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has many more that in their tradition are Scripture, who is correct?, the only books that Jesus called Scripture was the OT, which never said to write a NT, you have to go on faith that man was following the Holy Spirit and whatever tradition you follow you follow out of a heart of learning and striving the know the Trinity and becoming more and more dead to self and more conformed to Jesus. I believe the Father is still at work today and he still speaks to people today, if so are his words that he spoke to the writers of the NT from one part of his being and when he speaks today from another or is all of the Fathers words carrying the same weight, does the Father have inspired thoughts and uninspired thought?
I believe that all that the Father speaks to humans or to his heavenly beings are all the same, and he is still speaking to humans today and guiding us into the truth, that is why I place weight on what the ECF taught, did they get everything correct? no no man does, The Trinity is infinite we are finite anything that we come up with will always be short, the finite can't comprehend the totality of the infinite.
The Church for the first 300 years till Augustine taught that the premillennial view was the correct way to read Scripture, there were a few that did not agree and taught Amillennialism but they were few and in the minority.
### Premillennialism (Literal 1000-Year Reign) in the Early Church
Your paragraph is too long. It covers multiple points and topics, all of which should have their own paragraph, and goes all over the place. I am not going to attempt to untangle it. Especially since I pretty much know that I am talking to a skeptic who has no intention of listening, lest they should learn.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Your paragraph is too long. It covers multiple points and topics, all of which should have their own paragraph, and goes all over the place. I am not going to attempt to untangle it. Especially since I pretty much know that I am talking to a skeptic who has no intention of listening, lest they should learn.
That's ok, I am used to this kind of response, I like to ask the tough questions that people do not feel like answering, you can't answer it with sunday school answers. Why do you think I am a skeptic ? I am asking hard questions that many do not want to answer, I am just challenging your view but if its too much for I am sorry.
 
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Arial-byGrace

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That's ok, I am used to this kind of response, I like to ask the tough questions that people do not feel like answering, you can't answer it with sunday school answers. Why do you think I am a skeptic ? I am asking hard questions that many do not want to answer, I am just challenging your view but if its too much for I am sorry.
Did it take a step ladder to get up on that throne of contempt? Possibly no one cares to waste their time on foolishness. That is certainly my reason. Turns out I can answer every one of your questions and if you knew how to write a paragraph and organize your thoughts instead of scattering them all over the back field, I would have.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Did it take a step ladder to get up on that throne of contempt? Possibly no one cares to waste their time on foolishness. That is certainly my reason. Turns out I can answer every one of your questions and if you knew how to write a paragraph and organize your thoughts instead of scattering them all over the back field, I would have.
If you can answer my questions why don't you? I know that I am not the best at english paragraph stuff and my thoughts do go all over the place, its like trying to put 5 gallons of water into a cup, but don't let my lack of english writing style keep you from an answer, you must of understood enough to claim that you do have answers, well if you do lets see them.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Jesus said in Rev 3:10 that "you" (believers) will be kept from the Trib that will come over the whole world to try "those" (unbelievers) who dwell on the earth. Do you deny what Jesus meant?

1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52 all work together to effect the pre-Trib rapture of all believers.

1 Th 4:17 will position us behind clouds and in the air for the Judgment Seat of Christ, which Paul says in 2 Tim 4:8 will occur "on that day" (the day of the pre-Trib rapture).

The seals will be opened after the pre-Trib rapture (Rev 4:1). Are you going to again claim that Rev 4:1 was only for Apostle John when it's been proven he only saw Heaven through the supernatural scenes he was treated to by one angel (Rev 1:1 and Rev 21:8)?

Rev 5 is about a very solemn ceremony that we believers wiĺl aĺl be present for after the pre-Trib rapture (Rev 4:1). It is only after that ceremony, that the Bible says the seals will be opened. Do you deny that Rev 5 will be a future event that all believers wiĺl attend to witness the opening of the seals in Rev 6?

That the Seals of war, famine, plague and economic disaster are open now, is obvious from how all those things have and still are happening.
The Fifth Seal is the proof, all the millions of Christian martyrs since Stephen.

The next Prophesied event has to be the Sixth Seal, which will reset our civilization and allow all the things that must happen before Jesus Returns. to take place.
Anyone who thinks they will be raptured to heaven, is deceived and deluded, as the Lords Day of fiery wrath, will come upon everyone the whole world over.
Keras, what prior time of wars has killed 25% of the world's population inside a year or so, as in the 4th seal (Rev 6:8)?

Jesus said in Matt 24:21 (ESV): For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Rev 4-5 have to occur before the first seal will be opened. Rev 4:1 will rapture all believers pre-Trib to Heaven. The solemn ceremony in Rev 5 must occur before the first seal can be opened in Rev 6:1-2.

Let's see your proof to the contrary.
 
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