WHY WATER BAPTISIM HAD TO GO AWAY ??

LoveofTruth said:

John 17 actually reads like this

John 17: 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. ..11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. …14. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 26. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.”(John 17 KJV)

Notice that the word given, taught, ,declared was how they believed and how they were immersed into in the name of the Father. Jesus said he had given then the Fathers word, and declared unto them the name of the Father and will continue to do so and as the Father sent Jesus and he taiught the word so Jesus sends them to do so.

And Jesus ask the Father to keep them through his own name. What do you think this means? Keep them through the name of the Father?

Also, Jesus spoke of his word and he said things that sound similar to a spiritual immersion or cleansing washing inwardly so,to preach or teach the word to all nations is how they are immersed, cleansed washed inwardly and immersed into the name as I understand.

Ephesians 5: 26. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,”

John 15: 3. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.”

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You ask: And Jesus ask the Father to keep them through his own name. What do you think this means? Keep them through the name of the Father?

The later interpretation of the NIV might help you: John 17: I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

There is a huge power in just “the name of Deity”. Christ is calling upon the Holy Father’s name to protect the 11. It is not saying they have been baptized/immersed into the father’s name, the name stays with the Father and He protects them.

You quote Eph. 5:26 but that does not support what you are concluding

Eph. 5: 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body.

You are trying to establish that “teaching the gospel” is baptizing people, yet Paul specifically says: 1 Cor. 1: 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel. So how can preaching the gospel (Good News) be the same as Baptism? If Paul did not think they were the same why do you think they are the same?

LoveofTruth said:

In the first chapter of 1Cor.Paul is refering to them practicing water baptism,which Paul said he did so little of it and then he pushes it all aside when he says the word “besides”..

1 Corinthians 1: 16. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

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So how can preaching the gospel (Good News) be the same as Baptism? If Paul did not think they were the same why do you think they are the same?

LoveofTruth said:

So Paul condescended to this for a bit but he was showing them that it was not rightly understood and that men may try to use the wisdom of words to justify it but the cross of Christ puts to death all works of the flesh for justification. He says a similar thing about the cross being made of none effect in Galatians 6 when they were having men constrain them to be circumcised. Paul also condescended to circumcision in having Timothy circumcised in Acts 16 but when they tried to get Titus (a non Jew) to be circumcised he stood against it (Galatians 3)

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Titus was a gentile and Timothy was half Jewish. Paul had no problem with Jews following the Law but was always against Gentiles being forced to follow the Law.

LoveofTruth said:

In 1Cor Paul also told them what the one true spiritual baptism into the body of Christ was in 1 Cor. 12:13 and the one saving gospel. 1Cor.15:1-4

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1 cor. 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
This does not say how they were baptized by one Spirit, for I to believe all Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit, but not all Christians were baptized by the Spirit or will all Christians be baptized by fire.

1 Cor 15: "Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"
The Gospel (Good News) tells us we are forgiven and have eternal life, the indwelling Holy Spirit guarantees us God will keep all His promises.

bling said:

You ask: And Jesus ask the Father to keep them through his own name. What do you think this means? Keep them through the name of the Father?

The later interpretation of the NIV might help

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No,it does not help at all,in fact it clouds the mystery and wonder of the verse. I use the King Hames Bible only and believe in the traditional text and not thesis or the way the interpreters rewrite the verse.

I think maybe you saw John 17 as I quoted it and you can see clearly that it predicts what I teach and not being able to understand it you rushed in a frenzy to find some other interpretation and done meaning for your understanding. But the NIV does not give that. Even the wording on NIV saying by the power of your name shows that the name is not just a formula to use in water baptism.

bling said:

you: John 17: I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

There is a huge power in just “the name of Deity”. Christ is calling upon the Holy Father’s name to protect the 11. It is not saying they have been baptized/immersed into the father’s name, the name stays with the Father and He protects them.

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You don’t make sense in your interpretation.

In the section of John from the KzJV we see that Jesus said a few references to the Fathers name he said,

He manifested the name unto the men

He kept them in the name

He declared the nane

And I show from scripture to be in the name or run into it is a deep spiritual reality

Proverbs 18: 10. The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.”

And again how do you run into the nans if the Lord or keep them in the name or manifest the name and declare (teach) the name etc

Also notice that the disciples of Jesus had the Father and the Son in them as we see they had the Spirit of the Father in them before Pentecost in Matthew 10 and speaking in them also.

bling said:

You quote Eph. 5:26 but that does not support what you are concluding

Eph. 5: 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body.

You are trying to establish that “teaching the gospel” is baptizing people,

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No, the powerful ministry teaching of the word, gospel, truth of God is given by the Spirit and those who believe the word ,gospel ,as it is taught are immersed by one Spirit into the body of Christ and immersed into the name of the Father the son and the Holy Ghost. This is not referring to water baptism.

bling said:

yet Paul specifically says: 1 Cor. 1: 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

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The baptism he speaks of in 1 Vor. 1 is water baptism. The saving baptism that all have is by the Spirit into one body. 1Cor.12:13 ,the gospel Paul preached and taught is 1Cor25:1-4. To believe the gospel teaching and preaching a person will them be immersed into the name and the Spirit does the work of immersing into Christ and the name of the Father ,Son and Holy ghost. Although each member of the Trinity has specific work. Jesus baptiizes with the Holy Ghost the Father teaches and reveals the Son and the Holy Ghost gives power and testifies if Jesus.But a minister in the spirit will be ministering the word as God makes him able.

bling said:

. So how can preaching the gospel (Good News) be the same as Baptism?

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I didn’t say that exactly. when the gospel is taught or preached in the power of the Spirit, if those who hear the word believe then God does a deep work inwardly they are immersed into faith and enter into the grace.

bling said:

If Paul did not think they were the same why do you think they are the same?

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Paul speaks of water baptism the ritual that was lingering as circumcision also did in places, but he also speaks of the one saving baptism that all must have by one Spirit into the body of Christ.

Paul also mentions the saving baptism in Galatians of being baptised into Christ and putting on Christ snd he also speaks in another place being baptized into Jesus Christ

bling said:

So how can preaching the gospel (Good News) be the same as Baptism? If Paul did not think they were the same why do you think they are the same?

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I never said the preaching or teaching the gospel is the baptism. But those who believe it are baptized into Jesus Christ and immersed by the Spirit into the name and by powerful spirit led teaching.

Paul says similar

1 Corinthians 2: 1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

Galatians 1: 11. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Galatians 2: 2. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.”

bling said:

Titus was a gentile and Timothy was half Jewish. Paul had no problem with Jews following the Law but was always against Gentiles being forced to follow the Law.

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Yes Paul did have a problem with any being circumcised and with those who were free from the law and old covenant going back into it. Just read most of his letters too much to post all of them. But Paul must have realized that the Jews were in a time of reformation (Hebrews 9) and transition from the old covenant that was fading away ready to vanish and the New Covenant. Paul would seem to be the first one to more fully understand the freedoms of the new covenant and the end of the old. We see Jewish believers still sacrificing animas ,circumcising and keeping the whole law many years after Christ death.(Acts 15 and Acts 21)

But just a few of Paul’s words here that disagree with you

Galatians 2: 16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ..19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God… 21. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Galatians 3: 2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 5. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”

There is literally way too many verses to quote that speak against you here.

For you to say Paul had no problem with the Jewish believers still trying to go back to the law is not right.

bling said:

1 cor. 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
This does not say how they were baptized by one Spirit, for I to believe all

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All Christian’s have this baptism into Christ or into Jesus Christ or into the body of Christ, the same saving baptism is spoken here. This is not water baptism.

This is the one baptism spoken of in Ephesians .There are many baptisms in scripture but only one saving baotism and that saving baptism is not water baptism. 1Cor 12:13 I do not believe is talking of the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

And all believers have the Spirit of the Father in them, the Spirit of the Son also and the Holy ghost in Christ.

bling said:

Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit, but not all Christians were baptized by the Spirit or will all Christians be baptized by fire.

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All believers have the Spirit of the Father in them, the Spirit of the Son also and the Holy ghost in Christ. But the power of the Spirit is given to those that ask and the power for ministry and other things.

bling said:

1 Cor 15: "Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"
The Gospel (Good News) tells us we are forgiven and have eternal life, the indwelling Holy Spirit guarantees us God will keep all His promises.

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When a person believes and continues daily in faith believing the gospel,keeping in memory the gospel they can live in God and have God working in them.

When a person believes the gospel they are also baptized immersed into Jesus Christ where he is in them and they in him

Mark 16: 15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

Some have believed that the baptism spoken of here is water baptism which it does not say it is and I don’t agree there. Others say it’s water baptism but it’s only an obedient song to follow as an ordinance. But they say we are not saved by water baptism but in the next breath they say you must do it or we doubt your salvation etc.

I see the believing part as faith and the baptism part as the grace that we enter into in Chriist. To baptize is to immerse “INTO” and we by faith (believing) are entered “INTO” the grace that saves.

Romans 5: 2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

LoveofTruth said:

No,it does not help at all,in fact it clouds the mystery and wonder of the verse. I use the King Hames Bible only and believe in the traditional text and not thesis or the way the interpreters rewrite the verse.

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Those who wrote the KJV used the Greek, Hebrew and Latin text and translated it to 17th century English. You than must further translate the 17th century English to 21st century English. The 17th century translators were not inspired, nor were the German translators, French translators, Spanish translators and so on.

LoveofTruth said:

I think maybe you saw John 17 as I quoted it and you can see clearly that it predicts what I teach and not being able to understand it you rushed in a frenzy to find some other interpretation and done meaning for your understanding. But the NIV does not give that. Even the wording on NIV saying by the power of your name shows that the name is not just a formula to use in water baptism.

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You added “into” which was not even in the KJV and “in” is not the same as “into”.

No, the KJV says the same thing but must be further translated.

This still stands true: “Teaching someone does not baptize that person. Show me in scripture where teaching someone is described as baptizing someone?”

We are told to teach and baptize, but they never mean the same thing or replace one another.

You keep trying to teach: if it does not specifically as “Baptized in water”, the Baptism was not in water, but you also agree sometimes it only says, “baptized” without saying water, but we all agree it was with water.

LoveofTruth said:

You don’t make sense in your interpretation.

In the section of John from the KzJV we see that Jesus said a few references to the Fathers name he said,

He manifested the name unto the men

He kept them in the name

He declared the nane

And I show from scripture to be in the name or run into it is a deep spiritual reality

Proverbs 18: 10. The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.”

And again how do you run into the nans if the Lord or keep them in the name or manifest the name and declare (teach) the name etc

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Again, we are not talking about Jesus teaching His disciples about God, which He did extensively, the issue is: “Can teaching someone for a short time peroid equal baptizing someone.” Maybe you could say: intensely teaching someone 24/7 for three years, would be like baptizing them in the subject. But Peter gives one 5-minute sermon and baptizes them, which would not mean they were immersed in the topic, so was Acts 2:38 be water baptism, which you agree Peter was still doing much later.

LoveofTruth said:

Also notice that the disciples of Jesus had the Father and the Son in them as we see they had the Spirit of the Father in them before Pentecost in Matthew 10 and speaking in them also.

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That does not take baptism to happen.

LoveofTruth said:

No, the powerful ministry teaching of the word, gospel, truth of God is given by the aspirin and those who believe the word ,gospel,as it is taught are immersed by one Spirot into the body of Christ and immersed into the name of the Father the son and the Holy Ghost. This is not referring to water baptism.

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Then, how can someone baptize anyone by their teaching if the Holy Spirit does the spirit baptizing? You cannot have it both ways.

LoveofTruth said:

The baptism he speaks of in 1 Vor. 1 is water baptism. The saving baptism that all have is by the Spirit into one body. 1Cor.12:13 ,the gospel Paul preached and taught is 1Cor25:1-4. To believe the gospel teaching and preaching a person will them be immersed into the name and the Spirit does the work of immersing into Christ and the name of the Father ,Son and Holy ghost. Although each member of the Trinity has specific work. Jesus baptiizes with the Holy Ghost the Father teaches and reveals the Son and the Holy Ghost gives power and testifies if Jesus.But a minister in the spirit will be ministering the word as God makes him able.

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You keep falling back on the fact which I fully agree with and that is: “The Spirit does the spirit baptizing”, BUT Christians did baptize other people, so since it is impossible for them to spiritual baptize anyone, the baptism talked about has to be water baptism.

LoveofTruth said:

I didn’t say that exactly. when the gospel is taught or preached in the power of the Spirit, if those who hear the word believe then God does a deep work inwardly they are immersed into faith and enter into the grace.

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Now your trying to back away, but your “teaching the gospel = baptism” was the only answer you gave for some Christians being able to baptize someone else without water.

LoveofTruth said:

I never said the preaching or teaching the gospel is the baptism. But those who believe it are baptized into Jesus Christ and immersed by the Spirit into the name and by powerful spirit led teaching.

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This is getting old, If the teaching and preaching is what the Christian is doing for the nonbeliever and that is not baptism, then simply how is the Christian teacher/preacher baptizing the nonbeliever?

The Bible says Christians are to and we have some actually doing the baptizing someone else, yet you’re saying the Spirit baptized them, but the Bible does not say that or tell us to teach so the Spirit can baptize them, but we are to baptize them.

LoveofTruth said:

Paul says similar

1 Corinthians 2: 1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

Galatians 1: 11. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Galatians 2: 2. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.”



Yes Paul did have a problem with any being circumcised and with those who were free from the law and old covenant going back into it. Just read most of his letters too much to post all of them. But Paul must have realized that the Jews were in a time of reformation (Hebrews 9) and transition from the old covenant that was fading away ready to vanish and the New Covenant. Paul would seem to be the first one to more fully understand the freedoms of the new covenant and the end of the old. We see Jewish believers still sacrificing animas ,circumcising and keeping the whole law many years after Christ death.(Acts 15 and Acts 21)

But just a few of Paul’s words here that disagree with you

Galatians 2: 16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ..19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God… 21. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Galatians 3: 2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 5. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”

There is literally way too many verses to quote that speak against you here.

For you to say Paul had no problem with the Jewish believers still trying to go back to the law is not right.

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Look Paul emphasizes the fact that the “Law” cannot do anything to justify gentiles or Jews, but that does not mean culturally a Jew cannot follow the Law.

LoveofTruth said:

All Christian’s have this baptism into Christ or into Jesus Christ or into the body of Christ, the same saving baptism is spoken here. This is not water baptism.

This is the one baptism spoken of in Ephesians .There are many baptisms in scripture but only one saving baotism and that saving baptism is not water baptism. 1Cor 12:13 I do not believe is talking of the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

And all believers have the Spirit of the Father in them, the Spirit of the Son also and the Holy ghost in Christ.

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Yes all Christians have the Spirit.

It did not say: “This does not refer to water baptism?

LoveofTruth said:

All believers have the Spirit of the Father in them, the Spirit of the Son also and the Holy ghost in Christ. But the power of the Spirit is given to those that ask and the power for ministry and other things.



When a person believes and continues daily in faith believing the gospel,keeping in memory the gospel they can live in God and have God working in them.

When a person believes the gospel they are also baptized immersed into Jesus Christ where he is in them and they in him

Mark 16: 15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

Some have believed that the baptism spoken of here is water baptism which it does not say it is and I don’t agree there. Others say it’s water baptism but it’s only an obedient song to follow as an ordinance. But they say we are not saved by water baptism but in the next breath they say you must do it or we doubt your salvation etc.

I see the believing part as faith and the baptism part as the grace that we enter into in Chriist. To baptize is to immerse “INTO” and we by faith (believing) are entered “INTO” the grace that saves.

Romans 5: 2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

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I am not saying water saves anyone.

bling said:

Those who wrote the KJV used the Greek, Hebrew and Latin text and translated it to 17th century English. You than must further translate the 17th century English to 21st century English.

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I’m Not getting into a 45 hour KJV proof discussion here, many have argued for the KJV and even in this forum. If you want to see why the KJV there is lots to study online.

bling said:

You added “into” which was not even in the KJV and “in” is not the same as “into”.

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The word “in the name of” can refer to bring in the character, power,, virtue of God.

The word in Greek “eis” means

“a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:--(abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of”

But we can say things like;

The father brought his kids in the house” or “the father brought his kids into the house” what’s the difference?

Also we read in scripture of the saving baptism is to be baptized into Jesus Chridt but that being immersed into him is the same as being in him when we are in Christ.

Consider

Romans 6: 3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”

Notice this baptism (immersion) is into Jesus Christ .The baptism is defined by the element either baptized in water or in or onto Christ

As we see here “with water” .

Mark 1: 8. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”

And to be “in Christ” or do all things “in” the name of ajesys christ” is to have been baptized into him.

Colossians 3: 17. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.”

Notice “in the name”. This verse is not saying after every word we say or every action we must recite the formula “in the name of Jesus Christ”. No it means to be in him and let his Word abide in us and to walk in the life snd character and power of Christ as we grow in the knowledge of him.

We ajdo see this “in” word used here

John 17: 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

So we see to be kept “in” the name, is not a formula. It is similar to running “into the name” .As I showed we can go “in” the house or” into the house.

Here’s more

John 15: 3. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him
John 15: 3. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing… 7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.”

Notice Jesus speaks of the word that cleanses or washes. Then he speaks of abiding “in” him. This being in Christ is not a formula but a new creation in him.

Proverbs 18: 10. The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.”

Do Jesus speaks of keeping them “in” the name of the Father and proverbs speaks of running into the name. The same idea is shown.

Are you bringing the children in the house or into the house?

Paul said,

Galatians 4: 19. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,”

The new birth is to have Christ formed in us and this spiritual immersion into him is how we are saved.

We also read of both words in and into here

Jude 1: 21. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”

In is used of being in Gods love not an expression of something outside or a formula for that action.

Romans 8: 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

“in Christ Jesus” is to be walking after the Spirit.

Romans 12: 5. So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”

Mark 1: 9. And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.”

And even in this case the words “in Jordan” show that the baptism is what the person is in. In this case the Jordan,but when a person is immersed in the name of the Father… that defines the baptism. Just like believers are baptized into Jesus Christ and they put on christ. It is not baptized into water and put on water.

There are many baptisms in scripture and they are not all referring to water.

bling said:

No, the KJV says the same thing but must be further translated.

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No, it says different.

KJV says

John 17: 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.” (king James Version)

John 17: I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one” (NIV)

Notice in the first w we hire (zKJV) Jesus says “I have kept them in your name”. That is a past and continuous action. But in the NIV,it says protect them by the power of your name”. Those is asking the Father to do a certain action not speaking of the past action of keeping them in the name.

The expression “I kept them in thy name” . Show s connection to immersing or baptizing in the name. And as I asked before, what does it me as n to keep in a name?

The two versions are different.Samantha mystery is lost or veiled or confusing in the NIV.

Anff d notice the NIV tdd as is out “none of them is lost”.This is an important part shoring that they had that spiritual life being kept in the Father before the cross and were saved. That whole understanding of being saved is gone from the NIV here.

bling said:

You keep falling back on the fact which I fully agree with and that is: “The Spirit does the spirit baptizing”, BUT Christians did baptize other people, so since it is impossible for them to spiritual baptize anyone, the baptism talked about has to be water baptism.

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I agree the Jewish belivers did water baptize after christ resurrection as we can see. But as I have been showing, ,the Jewish believers were still coming out of the old covenant and in a time of reformation and transition. They were and I still going to the temple, sacrificing animals, circumcising, and trying to keep the whole law and customs many years after christ death as seen in Acts 15 and Acts 21 etc.), does this mean that the Gentile believers should do so and live like the Jews who were coming out of the old to the new? No.

Thee ed Jewish brr ed levers were also following a Johns water baptism for x as long time after. All diverse washings and carnal ordinances were imposed upon them until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9) and Johns water baptism also belonged to the Old Testament shadows dnd types.

bling said:

This still stands true: “Teaching someone does not baptize that person. Show me in scripture where teaching someone is described as baptizing someone?”

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In the scripture in Matthew 28 we read that they are told to teach all nations, this is as they are in Christ in the power of the Spirit. What does this teaching or “preaching” also do? To those who believe, we read of what it causes in faith “baptizing them in the name It does not say, “go teach and then water baptize them”. No it says teachs all, baptizing … that baptizing is connected to the resulting spiritual teaching and believing of the word. It did not say baptize but baptizing Noticd the “ing” at the end. It’s like saying “give them food feeding them into

But we do see believers doing spiritual things and I know that it is God who is the power and the one works spiritually but he uses the body of believers to do spiritual things

1 Corinthians 4: 15. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

Notice Paul said he begat them through the truth. We know that God gives life but we see the way God uses believers. So to say teach all baptizing them in the name is possible for ministers to do and is not too hard to understand

Also,

1 Timothy 4: 16. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”

Notice doctrine (teaching) shall save…

And

Romans 1: 11. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;”

Notice , Impart some spiritual gift by Paul.. we also see believers laying hands on other after teaching and some being baptized with Holy Ghost. Peter while speaking words (teaching) others heard and were baptized with the Holy Ghost in Acts 10.

Paul taught they heard and received the Spirit or were immersed into.

Galatians 3: 2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

Something to consider.

Also we never see Matthew 28 as a formula anywhere in scripture. If Matthew 28 was water baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, then why is it never seen to be done this way in all scripture as a ritual in water baptism? Did the apostles get it wrong? Were they not doing what Jesus said??

bling said:

We are told to teach and baptize, but they never mean the same thing or replace one another.

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As I showed that’s not what was written in Matthew 28

Matthew 28: 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

Baptizing is a word that connect to the teaching. Many add water to the text it is not there.

As I said there are many baptisms in scripture and all are not water baptism. In this case no water is seen. When Jesus told them in Acts 1:5 that John baptized (past tense) with water ,but they shall be (future tense) baptized with the Homy Ghost. He did not add water to the second part. He also did not say that John baptized with water but you shall also baptize with water and just change some particulars but in effect this the sane action. No he did not say that

Baptizing is not the same use as the word baptize or baptized

To teach ,baptizing in the name implies that the believers are being instructed as disciples being spiritually immersed in to the character,,virtue, ,power and knowledge of the true God and all things that are pertaining to the name of God.

Can I ask you a question, bling?

Are you high on something? Because you are speaking in capital letters like you are yelling and screaming. Its inappropriate.

Just calm down and talk normally. Like I am doing.

Teach all nations immersing them in the name


Deuteronomy 32: 2. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: 3. Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.”

Zechariah 14: 9. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”

Exodus 9: 16. And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.”

Sorry for the typos. I’m trying to fix them. My phone messes up when typing and I need to be more careful what I type.

I have testimony of being baptized by Water and Spirit. Its in the testimony section and the link is in my signature. Go to the thread if you wanna read my full testimony.....but below is a quoted section from it.

So the first experience/vision.....I visited my father one weekend from college. While staying at his house overnight, I get up to use the bathroom. When i finish and pass my dad in the living room. (He slept on the couch), he was awake and told me to sit next to him. He then explained to me he wasn't my father, but he was really Gabriel. He placed his hand on my forehead. Immediately air rushed into my lungs and i sneezed with my mouth. At the same time, I felt the sensation of warm water being poured over me. I was then pulled out of my body into a separate "realm" that was above. This realm was pure black. Out of the blackness a Silvery/Blue face appears, and says "Thomas, I swear by my great name you are mine". He then asks me several times what I want, and I keep changing my answer. First it was to "live lives", then it was "for my mothers healing", then it was "just to be happy", then it was "to get out of the military", then finally I answered "I wanted to marry Rachel". I was sent off to bed, and as I laid in bed I heard a voice say to me, "My dad was going to die".....so I pleaded with the voice and said "Give my dad, mercy" (meaning his soul). [side note, 14 years later. he is still alive (but his life collapsed around him and changed majorly and he is doing really good now)] I fell asleep and forgot about this vision until my 2nd experience happened. I place this vision happening just before the Holiday Season 2011. I interpret this as a baptism of water and spirit.

AceWestfall08 said:

I have testimony of being baptized by Water and Spirit. Its in the testimony section and the link is in my signature. Go to the thread if you wanna read my full testimony.....but below is a quoted section from it.

So the first experience/vision.....I visited my father one weekend from college. While staying at his house overnight, I get up to use the bathroom. When i finish and pass my dad in the living room. (He slept on the couch), he was awake and told me to sit next to him. He then explained to me he wasn't my father, but he was really Gabriel. He placed his hand on my forehead. Immediately air rushed into my lungs and i sneezed with my mouth. At the same time, I felt the sensation of warm water being poured over me. I was then pulled out of my body into a separate "realm" that was above. This realm was pure black. Out of the blackness a Silvery/Blue face appears, and says "Thomas, I swear by my great name you are mine". He then asks me several times what I want, and I keep changing my answer. First it was to "live lives", then it was "for my mothers healing", then it was "just to be happy", then it was "to get out of the military", then finally I answered "I wanted to marry Rachel". I was sent off to bed, and as I laid in bed I heard a voice say to me, "My dad was going to die".....so I pleaded with the voice and said "Give my dad, mercy" (meaning his soul). [side note, 14 years later. he is still alive (but his life collapsed around him and changed majorly and he is doing really good now)] I fell asleep and forgot about this vision until my 2nd experience happened. I place this vision happening just before the Holiday Season 2011. I interpret this as a baptism of water and spirit.

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Yes,I believe a person can have spiritual experiences any time and during a testimony or confession of Christ ,during a ritual that they may feel the need to do or when they are praying with believers.

But I must stick with scripture in this. In fact the apostles were baptized by John much earlier than when they were baptized with the Holy Ghost. John even said that he baptized with water but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. And when Peter was teaching or preaching to the Gentiles in Acts 10 they received the Holy Ghost and were saved before any water baptism. That shows that the two are not directly connected to an Old Testament water baptism event, which John was sent to do. John even said he must decrease(and his ministry also).

The two events are no connected by sone man made “sacramental” union. As convert to say.

I like hearing spiritual experiences like that.Thanks for sharing. But I have some concerns. you say it was a vision and you spoke with an angel and it was your father but not your father. This is questionable and you must discern the spirits. I don’t know if that was Gabriel but. Then you said out of blackness you saw a silver blue face. Agsin I don’t know who that was the spirit did not give a name reference. We must try and discern all spirits. Your vision and experience is subjective so others can only hear and discern.

But I can say that as I was street preaching downtown for a while I was troubled about water baptism and I was beginning to think I had to either take new converts to the lake close by right away or bring a large pool of water on the street. Then, as I was walking I heard in my spirit the verse in Corinthians where Paul said “Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel.”I believe God was speaking to me also in that.telling me I did not need to water baptize.I had baptized others in the past and was water baptized myself in the past . But I started to see things anew from scripture.
Around that time I had met another man ministering and he did not believe in water baptism for today and this led me to search diligently and I often ask God about these things. But when I saw that the book of Acts shows the transition and reformation from the old to the new covenant (Acts 15,Acts21,Hebrews 8,9 etc) and that the Jewish believers were still struggling with the law and sacrifices, the temple, circumcision and the and law and customs of the Jews,I saw things clearer.