Call upon the Name of the Lord and you shall be Saved.

keras · Jan 29, 2026

Joel 2:32a …whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved.
Context – verse 31….before the coming of the great and terrible Day of the Lord. Verse 32b …on Mt Zion and in Jerusalem there will be a remnant as the Lord has promised.

Romans 10:13 Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord shall be saved. Context: Verse 12 There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, because the same Lord is Lord of all…. Verse 14; People must first be converted to Christianity and have faith in God.

Acts 2:21 Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord on that day, shall be saved. Context: Verse 19-20 I will show portents in the sky and blood, fire and smoke on the earth, The sun will be darkened and the moon like blood, before that notable Day of the Lord, comes. Verse 22: Men of Israel; [My faithful peoples] hear Me…..

1 Corinthians 1:2 To Gods Church in Corinth, dedicated to Christ Jesus and called to be His peoples, along with all who invoke the Name of our Lord wherever they may be; their Lord as well as ours.

Psalms 116:5-13 Gracious is the Lord and full of compassion. He preserves the simple hearted, when I was in distress, He saved me. My heart is at peace once more, for the Lord has granted me full deliverance. I am rescued from death and I will walk in the Presence of the Lord, in the land of the living. I will take the cup of Salvation and call upon the Lord by Name.

It is when disaster strikes, we are told to call to our Lord and Saviour. When He sends His fiery wrath to destroy His enemies and there will be dramatic things in the sky, terrible earthquakes and extreme heat. Isaiah 43:1-2 is His Promise to those who put their trust in His protection: Have no fear, for I; the Lord, has redeemed you, I will call you by name, you are Mine. When you pass thru water, I will be with you…Walk thru fire and you will not be burned.

What should be patently obvious, is all this has nothing to do with our Salvation, or the glorious Return of King Jesus. It all refers to the next Prophesied event; the Sixth Seal Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, graphically described in over 100 Prophesies. Just as the sequence in Revelation shows us.

First the great test of our faith, a Day of worldwide disaster which will destroy our modern infrastructure, along with the destruction of all the ungodly peoples in the Holy Land. Then: further testing and the punishment of those who follow the ‘beast’= Satan, in the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.

Only those peoples who have proved their faith will go with Jesus into the Millennium.

bling · Jan 29, 2026

What does it mean to "Call on the name of the Lord"?

Lost4words · Jan 29, 2026

Everyone should call on the name of Our Lord be it in times of peace or turmoil...

Jeff Saunders · Jan 29, 2026

John 14:6 " I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." In order to be saved everyone must go through Jesus, the real question is can you do this after your mortal body is dead. Thanks to Augustine the western Latin based Christians think that salvation only can happen while the mortal body is alive, but Scripture never says that you can only call on Jesus and be saved only while in your mortal body. Heb 9:27 " it is appointed for man to die once and after that comes judgement." Most in the western Church think that the judgement is eternal heaven or eternal hell, that is an assumption that the judgement is equal to the sentence or punishment, but that is not in line with the whole of scripture. Isaiah 45:33-Rom 14:11- Phil 2:10-11 all say that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, In the Phil 2 the Greek word for confess is Exomologeo which means to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations, this is not a forced false confession, this is a willing acknowledgement of who Jesus is and they will all do this. If this can't happen after your mortal body is dead then Scripture would contradict itself and that is not possible. For me it is clear that Jesus is after the true us not our body and he will search out every sheep that is lost until he finds it, and we are not our bodies its just a tent or vessel we inhabit for a temporary time. So yes all must call on Jesus for salvation and Scripture is clear that all humans will do this, some now in the mortal body most after their mortal body is dead.

keras · Jan 29, 2026

Jeff Saunders said:
So yes all must call on Jesus for salvation

I specifically said and proved that the admonition of the OP, was not for our Salvation, but for the Lords protection, when He sends His fiery wrath upon the earth.
We are saved when we accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and make public confirmation of our Christian faith.

We will be protected and kept alive by the Lord on the terrible Day of worldwide disaster, if we pass the test; 1 Peter 4:12, of faith in Him.
The 3 men in the furnace and Psalms 91 are a good examples of how this works.

The sad fact is that so many Christians have no idea of what God has planned for our future. They will be shocked and surprised by the forthcoming Sixth Seal world changer. Luke 21:25-26

Jeff Saunders · Friday at 6:51 PM

We don't go through the tribulation if we are followers of Jesus, so there is no point to ask if we will have protection. Those who become Christians, after the Church is raptured, if they live do go into the millennium and will live under the rule of Jesus and his saints.

Jeffrey Bowden · Friday at 11:28 PM

keras said:
I specifically said and proved that the admonition of the OP, was not for our Salvation, but for the Lords protection, when He sends His fiery wrath upon the earth.
We are saved when we accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and make public confirmation of our Christian faith.

We will be protected and kept alive by the Lord on the terrible Day of worldwide disaster, if we pass the test; 1 Peter 4:12, of faith in Him.
The 3 men in the furnace and Psalms 91 are a good examples of how this works.

The sad fact is that so many Christians have no idea of what God has planned for our future. They will be shocked and surprised by the forthcoming Sixth Seal world changer. Luke 21:25-26

Keras, are you saved? You're placing salvation in the future. Are you saved now or not?

The "fiery wrath" you quote is taken out of context. Try reading 1 Peter 4:12 (ESV): Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.

Verse 12 is about the uncomfortable circumstances one will run into when spreading the Gospel.Verses 13-14 prove the context as daily trials and tribulations when spreading the Gospel. Why do you misapply that to a future event in the Trib (the seven years of Tribulation as detailed in Rev 6 - 16)?

Your comments about Rev 6 are false. Rev 6:15-17 are about "everyone" on Earth (see verse 15). They all overreact to an alleged sighting of Jesus. They all run in complete fear to hide in caves and among the rocks. That is wholly and exclusively the behavior of unbelievers. What would believers do in the same circumstance? We would be overjoyed and we would run to Jesus!

The phenomenon in Rev 6 serves as proof of God's existence and that He is all-powerful. The purpose of the Trib is to get unbelievers to repent or to face eternal condemnation.

We're currently marching toward 1 Th 5:3. Trump is God's man for leading this world toward peace and safety, as in 1 Th 5:3.

The Trib is approaching, and so are 1 Th 4:16-17. Rev 3:10 says believers ("you" or "thee") will be kept from the Trib, and unbelievers ("those" or "they") will be tried in the Trib.

keras · Saturday at 2:16 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
We don't go through the tribulation if we are followers of Jesus, so there is no point to ask if we will have protection. Those who become Christians, after the Church is raptured, if they live do go into the millennium and will live under the rule of Jesus and his saints.

The three quotes of the OP, do not apply to the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. They specifically say it will be the Lords terrible Day of vengeance and fiery wrath, when we must Call upon His Name. The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

Please do not mention a rapture, without giving scriptural support for such a thing.
I note that Revelation 3:10 says: the hour of trial will come upon everyone.......Keeping His faithful people from the dramatic things as described, is by protection, not removal. Isaiah 43:2

Jeff Saunders · Saturday at 10:30 AM

I do not understand why you need Scriptural support for the rapture when you know darn well what those of us who follow the early church fathers on the pretrib rapture and the scripture that is used, for those who are ignorant of them, the internet is full of places to learn.
To me the mistake that is being made is that those who think that the Gentile Church will still be around during the tribulation, but the current Church will be gone, but that does not mean no one left will follow Jesus, the Jews will have the veil removed and many church goers who were not following Jesus but a form of religion, will be saved. These are those who the Father will protect but many will also become martyrs.

keras · Saturday at 1:48 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
I do not understand why you need Scriptural support for the rapture when you know darn well what those of us who follow the early church fathers on the pretrib rapture and the scripture that is used, for those who are ignorant of them, the internet is full of places to learn.

My request is simple; provide Biblical proof that the Church will be raptured to heaven, or cease to believe and promote it.

Jeff Saunders said:
To me the mistake that is being made is that those who think that the Gentile Church will still be around during the tribulation,

Proof that Gods holy peoples are present on earth, is in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where the Anti-Christ 'beast' conquers them.
Humans never go to heaven, after the Millennium, God and therefore heaven; comes to us. Revelation 21

The Liturgist · Saturday at 2:09 PM

Lost4words said:
Everyone should call on the name of Our Lord be it in times of peace or turmoil...

Indeed, “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on Me, A Sinner.” This prayer should be said frequently.

Jeff Saunders · Saturday at 2:43 PM

I am not part of the group who believes its only true if Western Scripture says so, Scripture has and is used to prove all kinds of things that are not true. I look at Scripture and how it was interpreted from the people who were closest to the original culture and languages. Many of the early church fathers taught that the millennium is going to be a physical rule of Jesus on the earth for 1000 years, I believe that they are correct. From that I work backwards to " prove" that the pre trib rapture is the only scenario that makes sense of the whole of Scripture. If the Millennium is literal, who is Jesus going to rule over? Paul says that those who remain until Jesus comes back are transformed into our heavenly bodies our glorified bodies, the wicked will be gathered up for judgement. This leaves no one left to go into the Millennium, The Christians will rule with Jesus and the wicked are judged as tares. If Jesus comes and takes the Christians at the fullness of the Gentiles, the world will be judged and all will be left is non believers, that is when the veil is lifted from the Jews and they will see the one they have pierced and many will believe along with the religious people who did not truly follow Jesus. I ask myself if the Church is still here for the Tribulation why would The Father have 144000 Jews be his witness when that's the job of the Church, that's a slap to the face of the Church, and how will they be witnesses while the veil is still on if the fullness of the Gentiles is still no compleet? The two witnesses would have more opposition from the " Christians" than from the world, even now the Church fights more with itself than it does with the world, but if the Church is in heaven with Jesus this is a non issue. For me the only scenario that puts all the puzzle pieces together is this- Jesus comes in the clouds and calls all those who are his home ( Phil 3:20 our citizenship is in heaven} the Church is gone, Jacobs trouble begins the two witnesses and the 144000 Jews are now the Fathers witnesses and all those who follow Jesus and make it through the tribulation go into the Millennium and they are under the rule of Jesus with the help from the glorified saints. This is the only view that I can see that puts all things into place.
If Humans never go to heaven why are we citizens of a place we never go, that makes no sense. What did Jesus mean by in my Fathers house there are many dwelling places and I go there to prepare a place for you, does the Father have another home?
These are the things that I have gleaned from the writings of the early Church fathers and how they understood Scripture.

Jeffrey Bowden · Saturday at 6:36 PM

keras said:
The three quotes of the OP, do not apply to the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. They specifically say it will be the Lords terrible Day of vengeance and fiery wrath, when we must Call upon His Name. The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

Please do not mention a rapture, without giving scriptural support for such a thing.
I note that Revelation 3:10 says: the hour of trial will come upon everyone.......Keeping His faithful people from the dramatic things as described, is by protection, not removal. Isaiah 43:2

Keras, you keep on altering the words of Rev 3:10.

Let's look at Rev 3:10 (NKJV):
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Believers are addressed as "you." Jesus said, ... I also will keep you (believers) from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole earth, to test those (unbelievers) who dwell on the earth.

Believers are kept from the Trib. We never enter it.

If you properly kept a young granddaughter away from a vicious dog on someone else's leash, your granddaughter would never have any contact with that vicious dog.

We believers will have no contact with Earth during the Trib. Jesus makes that very clear in Rev 3:10.

Who is referred to as "those who dwell on the earth" during the Trib? The answer is unbelievers. Please read Rev 6:10 and Rev 11:10. The murderers in Rev 6:10) and the hard-core degenerates in Rev 11:10 are unbelievers. It is only they who dwell on the earth during the Trib.

keras said:
I specifically said and proved that the admonition of the OP, was not for our Salvation, but for the Lords protection, when He sends His fiery wrath upon the earth.
We are saved when we accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and make public confirmation of our Christian faith.

We will be protected and kept alive by the Lord on the terrible Day of worldwide disaster, if we pass the test; 1 Peter 4:12, of faith in Him.
The 3 men in the furnace and Psalms 91 are a good examples of how this works.

The sad fact is that so many Christians have no idea of what God has planned for our future. They will be shocked and surprised by the forthcoming Sixth Seal world changer. Luke 21:25-26

I'm convinced that Apostle Paul's use of the words "in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" in 1 Th 4:17 are about the Judgment Seat of Christ.

That aligns with 2 Tim 4:8's "on that day." That is the day of the rapture.

Judgment in the air is also implied elsewhere in Matt 25:33 and most definitely in the GWTJ in Rev 20:12-13 (after "The earth and the heavens fled from his presence,...").

keras · Sunday at 1:34 AM

Thus says The Lord to all diviners, false prophets and dreamers of dreams, even to all who speak falsely in My name, sharing visions of escape and avoidance of testing:
You shall by no means escape the Day of The Lord’s anger when it comes, for you have caused My people to err. You have led them astray with lies, by many false theories and by your false visions have you caused them to stumble into darkness. Deceptive dreams and delusions brought forth from your own imaginations, all in all doctrines of demons which blaspheme My name and denigrate the truth of who I am.
But; are you ashamed of all these abominations, which you have propagated before the people? No! You are not ashamed, nor does it cause you to blush!
Therefore you shall be the first to fall among those who fall; in the time of your punishment you shall surely be cast down! Says The Lord. For wrath has indeed entered My heart, and My anger is increased on your account!... Yet My anger is justified and MY judgment righteous! For that which I see is the whole truth, nothing is hidden from My eyes! Indeed, I know the hearts of both those who deceive and those being deceived.
I AM THE LORD.

Therefore, thus says The Lord God: Be struck down, all you deceivers! Every one, from the deceiver to those perpetuating these deceptions, shall be struck on the top of their heads! Yet; let not those being deceived perish; rather let them be humbled in the Day of The Lord. For the discipline of The Lord shall teach them, and My stern correction shall open their eyes in the Day of Darkness... For The Holy One of Israel is great in power and mighty to save, bursting all bonds asunder, breaking every chain which holds My people captive! Then they will know, I AM THE LORD, and they shall turn away from all these perverse doctrines and reject all these evil fables. For in that day they shall come to see Me as I truly am, declares The Lord.

But look upon all these who continue to teach and promote these corrupt doctrines and false visions; Look, My name is greatly blasphemed among the nations because of them.
From the overbearing church leader to the sanctimonious priest,
From the high-minded scholar to the braggart preacher,
From the self-righteous pastor to the arrogant Rabbi,
Before Me stands a whole multitude of deceived teachers
Who know neither Me nor My Word.

The veil remains fastened securely atop their heads, and the darkness of their shame covers them, for they lack understanding! They love to condemn their enemies and take much pleasure in passing judgment against their neighbor. For their hearts are full of hate and the spirit of Cain rules over them; a most foolish and ignorant generation, multitudes of prideful people who refuse knowledge and reject correction, they are a people destined for wrath. I DO NOT KNOW THEM! Neither has The Holy Spirit entered in.
Shall I not repay? Wait for the Day: I shall surely reckon with them, for they have robbed Me! Says The Lord.

Is it a light thing to The Lord, that they have gone out polluting My Name as they attempt to cast a shadow over My glory?

Is it a small thing to Me, that My sheep are led into the wilderness by all these self-appointed shepherds, by these false prophets and teachers among the flock, all these so-called dreamers of dreams, leaving them lost and without understanding, with no lamp to guide them?! Shall I leave My children to die in this darkness, trapped by all these deceivers? Shall I leave them as prey for the wolves of the wilderness, afar off, separated from God, destitute of daily Spiritual food? Behold, I shall feed them! Even I, Myself, shall give them food and drink! Says The Lord. And lo, they shall be set free to serve in My name, once again. Oh yes, they shall serve Me in truth and faithfulness’ and keep My Commandments, as they testify to The Salvation of God; by their righteous lives. .
But, those self-appointed shepherds shall fall, and the false prophets and wicked peoples shall become ashes beneath the feet of My witnesses in the Day of The Lord’s fiery vengeance and wrath.

The pastors shall become slaves, every dreamer shall be ridiculed and put to shame, the breath of every sorcerer taken, with every false prophet brought down into silence, their inheritance removed. Every false prophet who continues to speak lies in My name shall surely die. They shall not be lifted up, nor shall they pollute My name or attempt to steal from My glory, anymore.
For fierce is My anger against them, and thus shall I pour out My indignation upon them!

Thus says the Lord God of Hosts:
I am The Lord, and My ways are not human ways,
For My mercy endures forever, and My anger has an end...

Those who highly esteem themselves shall be broken in pieces,
And those who profess themselves to be wise shall be made fools

Indeed, the self-appointed shall fall hard upon their faces, severely shamed,
For by no other means shall they be brought into perfection...

Ref; Bible verses, paraphrased and placed in a consecutive order.

Lost4words · Sunday at 2:49 AM

Take heed Keras!

Jeffrey Bowden · Sunday at 7:26 AM

keras said:
Thus says The Lord to all diviners, false prophets and dreamers of dreams, even to all who speak falsely in My name, sharing visions of escape and avoidance of testing:
You shall by no means escape the Day of The Lord’s anger when it comes, for you have caused My people to err. You have led them astray with lies, by many false theories and by your false visions have you caused them to stumble into darkness. Deceptive dreams and delusions brought forth from your own imaginations, all in all doctrines of demons which blaspheme My name and denigrate the truth of who I am.
But; are you ashamed of all these abominations, which you have propagated before the people? No! You are not ashamed, nor does it cause you to blush!
Therefore you shall be the first to fall among those who fall; in the time of your punishment you shall surely be cast down! Says The Lord. For wrath has indeed entered My heart, and My anger is increased on your account!... Yet My anger is justified and MY judgment righteous! For that which I see is the whole truth, nothing is hidden from My eyes! Indeed, I know the hearts of both those who deceive and those being deceived.
I AM THE LORD.

Therefore, thus says The Lord God: Be struck down, all you deceivers! Every one, from the deceiver to those perpetuating these deceptions, shall be struck on the top of their heads! Yet; let not those being deceived perish; rather let them be humbled in the Day of The Lord. For the discipline of The Lord shall teach them, and My stern correction shall open their eyes in the Day of Darkness... For The Holy One of Israel is great in power and mighty to save, bursting all bonds asunder, breaking every chain which holds My people captive! Then they will know, I AM THE LORD, and they shall turn away from all these perverse doctrines and reject all these evil fables. For in that day they shall come to see Me as I truly am, declares The Lord.

But look upon all these who continue to teach and promote these corrupt doctrines and false visions; Look, My name is greatly blasphemed among the nations because of them.
From the overbearing church leader to the sanctimonious priest,
From the high-minded scholar to the braggart preacher,
From the self-righteous pastor to the arrogant Rabbi,
Before Me stands a whole multitude of deceived teachers
Who know neither Me nor My Word.

The veil remains fastened securely atop their heads, and the darkness of their shame covers them, for they lack understanding! They love to condemn their enemies and take much pleasure in passing judgment against their neighbor. For their hearts are full of hate and the spirit of Cain rules over them; a most foolish and ignorant generation, multitudes of prideful people who refuse knowledge and reject correction, they are a people destined for wrath. I DO NOT KNOW THEM! Neither has The Holy Spirit entered in.
Shall I not repay? Wait for the Day: I shall surely reckon with them, for they have robbed Me! Says The Lord.

Is it a light thing to The Lord, that they have gone out polluting My Name as they attempt to cast a shadow over My glory?

Is it a small thing to Me, that My sheep are led into the wilderness by all these self-appointed shepherds, by these false prophets and teachers among the flock, all these so-called dreamers of dreams, leaving them lost and without understanding, with no lamp to guide them?! Shall I leave My children to die in this darkness, trapped by all these deceivers? Shall I leave them as prey for the wolves of the wilderness, afar off, separated from God, destitute of daily Spiritual food? Behold, I shall feed them! Even I, Myself, shall give them food and drink! Says The Lord. And lo, they shall be set free to serve in My name, once again. Oh yes, they shall serve Me in truth and faithfulness’ and keep My Commandments, as they testify to The Salvation of God; by their righteous lives. .
But, those self-appointed shepherds shall fall, and the false prophets and wicked peoples shall become ashes beneath the feet of My witnesses in the Day of The Lord’s fiery vengeance and wrath.

The pastors shall become slaves, every dreamer shall be ridiculed and put to shame, the breath of every sorcerer taken, with every false prophet brought down into silence, their inheritance removed. Every false prophet who continues to speak lies in My name shall surely die. They shall not be lifted up, nor shall they pollute My name or attempt to steal from My glory, anymore.
For fierce is My anger against them, and thus shall I pour out My indignation upon them!

Thus says the Lord God of Hosts:
I am The Lord, and My ways are not human ways,
For My mercy endures forever, and My anger has an end...

Those who highly esteem themselves shall be broken in pieces,
And those who profess themselves to be wise shall be made fools

Indeed, the self-appointed shall fall hard upon their faces, severely shamed,
For by no other means shall they be brought into perfection...

Ref; Bible verses, paraphrased and placed in a consecutive order.

Are you going to falsely claim there are believers being described in that passage?

bling said:
What does it mean to "Call on the name of the Lord"?

With a sincerely humble heart, cry

keras said:
Thus says The Lord to all diviners, false prophets and dreamers of dreams, even to all who speak falsely in My name, sharing visions of escape and avoidance of testing:
You shall by no means escape the Day of The Lord’s anger when it comes, for you have caused My people to err. You have led them astray with lies, by many false theories and by your false visions have you caused them to stumble into darkness. Deceptive dreams and delusions brought forth from your own imaginations, all in all doctrines of demons which blaspheme My name and denigrate the truth of who I am.
But; are you ashamed of all these abominations, which you have propagated before the people? No! You are not ashamed, nor does it cause you to blush!
Therefore you shall be the first to fall among those who fall; in the time of your punishment you shall surely be cast down! Says The Lord. For wrath has indeed entered My heart, and My anger is increased on your account!... Yet My anger is justified and MY judgment righteous! For that which I see is the whole truth, nothing is hidden from My eyes! Indeed, I know the hearts of both those who deceive and those being deceived.
I AM THE LORD.

Therefore, thus says The Lord God: Be struck down, all you deceivers! Every one, from the deceiver to those perpetuating these deceptions, shall be struck on the top of their heads! Yet; let not those being deceived perish; rather let them be humbled in the Day of The Lord. For the discipline of The Lord shall teach them, and My stern correction shall open their eyes in the Day of Darkness... For The Holy One of Israel is great in power and mighty to save, bursting all bonds asunder, breaking every chain which holds My people captive! Then they will know, I AM THE LORD, and they shall turn away from all these perverse doctrines and reject all these evil fables. For in that day they shall come to see Me as I truly am, declares The Lord.

But look upon all these who continue to teach and promote these corrupt doctrines and false visions; Look, My name is greatly blasphemed among the nations because of them.
From the overbearing church leader to the sanctimonious priest,
From the high-minded scholar to the braggart preacher,
From the self-righteous pastor to the arrogant Rabbi,
Before Me stands a whole multitude of deceived teachers
Who know neither Me nor My Word.

The veil remains fastened securely atop their heads, and the darkness of their shame covers them, for they lack understanding! They love to condemn their enemies and take much pleasure in passing judgment against their neighbor. For their hearts are full of hate and the spirit of Cain rules over them; a most foolish and ignorant generation, multitudes of prideful people who refuse knowledge and reject correction, they are a people destined for wrath. I DO NOT KNOW THEM! Neither has The Holy Spirit entered in.
Shall I not repay? Wait for the Day: I shall surely reckon with them, for they have robbed Me! Says The Lord.

Is it a light thing to The Lord, that they have gone out polluting My Name as they attempt to cast a shadow over My glory?

Is it a small thing to Me, that My sheep are led into the wilderness by all these self-appointed shepherds, by these false prophets and teachers among the flock, all these so-called dreamers of dreams, leaving them lost and without understanding, with no lamp to guide them?! Shall I leave My children to die in this darkness, trapped by all these deceivers? Shall I leave them as prey for the wolves of the wilderness, afar off, separated from God, destitute of daily Spiritual food? Behold, I shall feed them! Even I, Myself, shall give them food and drink! Says The Lord. And lo, they shall be set free to serve in My name, once again. Oh yes, they shall serve Me in truth and faithfulness’ and keep My Commandments, as they testify to The Salvation of God; by their righteous lives. .
But, those self-appointed shepherds shall fall, and the false prophets and wicked peoples shall become ashes beneath the feet of My witnesses in the Day of The Lord’s fiery vengeance and wrath.

The pastors shall become slaves, every dreamer shall be ridiculed and put to shame, the breath of every sorcerer taken, with every false prophet brought down into silence, their inheritance removed. Every false prophet who continues to speak lies in My name shall surely die. They shall not be lifted up, nor shall they pollute My name or attempt to steal from My glory, anymore.
For fierce is My anger against them, and thus shall I pour out My indignation upon them!

Thus says the Lord God of Hosts:
I am The Lord, and My ways are not human ways,
For My mercy endures forever, and My anger has an end...

Those who highly esteem themselves shall be broken in pieces,
And those who profess themselves to be wise shall be made fools

Indeed, the self-appointed shall fall hard upon their faces, severely shamed,
For by no other means shall they be brought into perfection...

Ref; Bible verses, paraphrased and placed in a consecutive order.

Keras, I quote the Bible. You admittedly paraphrase the Bible.

Prove false one thing I wrote. Let's see it.

The Liturgist · Sunday at 11:22 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
I am not part of the group who believes its only true if Western Scripture says so, Scripture has and is used to prove all kinds of things that are not true. I look at Scripture and how it was interpreted from the people who were closest to the original culture and languages. Many of the early church fathers taught that the millennium is going to be a physical rule of Jesus on the earth for 1000 years, I believe that they are correct. From that I work backwards to " prove" that the pre trib rapture is the only scenario that makes sense of the whole of Scripture. If the Millennium is literal, who is Jesus going to rule over? Paul says that those who remain until Jesus comes back are transformed into our heavenly bodies our glorified bodies, the wicked will be gathered up for judgement. This leaves no one left to go into the Millennium, The Christians will rule with Jesus and the wicked are judged as tares. If Jesus comes and takes the Christians at the fullness of the Gentiles, the world will be judged and all will be left is non believers, that is when the veil is lifted from the Jews and they will see the one they have pierced and many will believe along with the religious people who did not truly follow Jesus. I ask myself if the Church is still here for the Tribulation why would The Father have 144000 Jews be his witness when that's the job of the Church, that's a slap to the face of the Church, and how will they be witnesses while the veil is still on if the fullness of the Gentiles is still no compleet? The two witnesses would have more opposition from the " Christians" than from the world, even now the Church fights more with itself than it does with the world, but if the Church is in heaven with Jesus this is a non issue. For me the only scenario that puts all the puzzle pieces together is this- Jesus comes in the clouds and calls all those who are his home ( Phil 3:20 our citizenship is in heaven} the Church is gone, Jacobs trouble begins the two witnesses and the 144000 Jews are now the Fathers witnesses and all those who follow Jesus and make it through the tribulation go into the Millennium and they are under the rule of Jesus with the help from the glorified saints. This is the only view that I can see that puts all things into place.
If Humans never go to heaven why are we citizens of a place we never go, that makes no sense. What did Jesus mean by in my Fathers house there are many dwelling places and I go there to prepare a place for you, does the Father have another home?
These are the things that I have gleaned from the writings of the early Church fathers and how they understood Scripture.

Eloquently expressed. There are some aspects of what you said which at first glance might possibly be inconsistent, perhaps merely in terminology, with the Early Church Fathers, but the method you are pursuing is correct and if you continue to follow it with sincerity, making sure to use some caution with pre-Nicene fathers whose theology either led them into tragic schism, such as Tertullian, or who were later challenged on their theology (Origen is important but can be problematic, however, the Cappadocians - chiefly St. Basil the Great, his brother St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory the Theologians, the best friend of St. Basil, compiled the most important works of Origen into the Philocalia (with a c; the Philokalia with a k is something else*) and the Philocalia omits those writings of Origen that would later raise more than a few eyebrows.

*The other Philokalia very important to Eastern Orthodox Christians but it was compiled in the 18th century by two Athonite monks, St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite and St. Macarius of Corinth, and is an anthology of writings from the fifth to sixteenth century, approximately, that would be of use to monastics and laics interested in Hesychasm, the monastic life and mystical theology. At a minimum, the first books of it are Patristic; the work reads a lot like a longer and more detailed and less laconic version of the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, which along with the writings of St. Athanasius, both De Incarnatione and The Life of Anthony, and also the 39th Paschal Encyclical which contains the earliest attestation of our current 27 book NT canon, I suggest to all Christians, whereas non Orthodox might not understand the Philokalia.

Jeffrey Bowden · Sunday at 12:52 PM

The Liturgist said:
Eloquently expressed. There are some aspects of what you said which at first glance might possibly be inconsistent, perhaps merely in terminology, with the Early Church Fathers, but the method you are pursuing is correct and if you continue to follow it with sincerity, making sure to use some caution with pre-Nicene fathers whose theology either led them into tragic schism, such as Tertullian, or who were later challenged on their theology (Origen is important but can be problematic, however, the Cappadocians - chiefly St. Basil the Great, his brother St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory the Theologians, the best friend of St. Basil, compiled the most important works of Origen into the Philocalia (with a c; the Philokalia with a k is something else*) and the Philocalia omits those writings of Origen that would later raise more than a few eyebrows.

*The other Philokalia very important to Eastern Orthodox Christians but it was compiled in the 18th century by two Athonite monks, St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite and St. Macarius of Corinth, and is an anthology of writings from the fifth to sixteenth century, approximately, that would be of use to monastics and laics interested in Hesychasm, the monastic life and mystical theology. At a minimum, the first books of it are Patristic; the work reads a lot like a longer and more detailed and less laconic version of the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, which along with the writings of St. Athanasius, both De Incarnatione and The Life of Anthony, and also the 39th Paschal Encyclical which contains the earliest attestation of our current 27 book NT canon, I suggest to all Christians, whereas non Orthodox might not understand the Philokalia.

Mr. Saunders and the Liturgist:

Rev 7:16 gives the clues to the start and end of the ministry by the 144k during the Trib.

In verse 16, the great multitude was subjected to famine / hunger and scorching heat. Those phenomena first occur in the Trib in Rev 6:8 (famine / hunger) and Rev 16:8-9 (scorching heat).

The 144k end their ministry in the second half of the Trib (bowl judgments); and that is referred to as "the great tribulation" in Rev 7:14.

The Scriptural evidence for the start and end of the ministry by the 2W (Two Witnesses) lies in comparing Rev 11:2-3 and Matt 24:14-16.

The wording in Rev 11:2-3 is futuristic, so both groups start either just before the midpoint (Matt 24:15) or after it. The 2W would need to start just before the midpoint, and that aligns with Matt 24:14. The trampling of the great city (Rev 11:2) aligns with Matt 24:16.

Jeff Saunders · Monday at 11:33 AM

keras said:
Thus says The Lord to all diviners, false prophets and dreamers of dreams, even to all who speak falsely in My name, sharing visions of escape and avoidance of testing:
You shall by no means escape the Day of The Lord’s anger when it comes, for you have caused My people to err. You have led them astray with lies, by many false theories and by your false visions have you caused them to stumble into darkness. Deceptive dreams and delusions brought forth from your own imaginations, all in all doctrines of demons which blaspheme My name and denigrate the truth of who I am.
But; are you ashamed of all these abominations, which you have propagated before the people? No! You are not ashamed, nor does it cause you to blush!
Therefore you shall be the first to fall among those who fall; in the time of your punishment you shall surely be cast down! Says The Lord. For wrath has indeed entered My heart, and My anger is increased on your account!... Yet My anger is justified and MY judgment righteous! For that which I see is the whole truth, nothing is hidden from My eyes! Indeed, I know the hearts of both those who deceive and those being deceived.
I AM THE LORD.

Therefore, thus says The Lord God: Be struck down, all you deceivers! Every one, from the deceiver to those perpetuating these deceptions, shall be struck on the top of their heads! Yet; let not those being deceived perish; rather let them be humbled in the Day of The Lord. For the discipline of The Lord shall teach them, and My stern correction shall open their eyes in the Day of Darkness... For The Holy One of Israel is great in power and mighty to save, bursting all bonds asunder, breaking every chain which holds My people captive! Then they will know, I AM THE LORD, and they shall turn away from all these perverse doctrines and reject all these evil fables. For in that day they shall come to see Me as I truly am, declares The Lord.

But look upon all these who continue to teach and promote these corrupt doctrines and false visions; Look, My name is greatly blasphemed among the nations because of them.
From the overbearing church leader to the sanctimonious priest,
From the high-minded scholar to the braggart preacher,
From the self-righteous pastor to the arrogant Rabbi,
Before Me stands a whole multitude of deceived teachers
Who know neither Me nor My Word.

The veil remains fastened securely atop their heads, and the darkness of their shame covers them, for they lack understanding! They love to condemn their enemies and take much pleasure in passing judgment against their neighbor. For their hearts are full of hate and the spirit of Cain rules over them; a most foolish and ignorant generation, multitudes of prideful people who refuse knowledge and reject correction, they are a people destined for wrath. I DO NOT KNOW THEM! Neither has The Holy Spirit entered in.
Shall I not repay? Wait for the Day: I shall surely reckon with them, for they have robbed Me! Says The Lord.

Is it a light thing to The Lord, that they have gone out polluting My Name as they attempt to cast a shadow over My glory?

Is it a small thing to Me, that My sheep are led into the wilderness by all these self-appointed shepherds, by these false prophets and teachers among the flock, all these so-called dreamers of dreams, leaving them lost and without understanding, with no lamp to guide them?! Shall I leave My children to die in this darkness, trapped by all these deceivers? Shall I leave them as prey for the wolves of the wilderness, afar off, separated from God, destitute of daily Spiritual food? Behold, I shall feed them! Even I, Myself, shall give them food and drink! Says The Lord. And lo, they shall be set free to serve in My name, once again. Oh yes, they shall serve Me in truth and faithfulness’ and keep My Commandments, as they testify to The Salvation of God; by their righteous lives. .
But, those self-appointed shepherds shall fall, and the false prophets and wicked peoples shall become ashes beneath the feet of My witnesses in the Day of The Lord’s fiery vengeance and wrath.

The pastors shall become slaves, every dreamer shall be ridiculed and put to shame, the breath of every sorcerer taken, with every false prophet brought down into silence, their inheritance removed. Every false prophet who continues to speak lies in My name shall surely die. They shall not be lifted up, nor shall they pollute My name or attempt to steal from My glory, anymore.
For fierce is My anger against them, and thus shall I pour out My indignation upon them!

Thus says the Lord God of Hosts:
I am The Lord, and My ways are not human ways,
For My mercy endures forever, and My anger has an end...

Those who highly esteem themselves shall be broken in pieces,
And those who profess themselves to be wise shall be made fools

Indeed, the self-appointed shall fall hard upon their faces, severely shamed,
For by no other means shall they be brought into perfection...

Ref; Bible verses, paraphrased and placed in a consecutive order.

Are you calling all those who do not agree with your interpretation a false prophet?

keras · Monday at 1:39 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
Are you calling all those who do not agree with your interpretation a false prophet?

The Lord is the Judge. I am entirely quoting His Words in #14. Paraphrasing does NOT change their meaning.
But those who promote theories and ideas which are not scripturally proved, are at risk of a more severe judgment. James 3:1

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