• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

When your politics overrides your faith.

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,760
2,585
Perth
✟223,511.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
When your political allegiance decides not only your vote but who your friends are, when it makes you cut off those who have a different politics, when it makes you willing to tolerate a moral bankrupt as your candidate and to vote for him or her, when your politics begins to substitute for your theology, when it decides your moral values then is it right to call yourself a Christian?
 

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
187,778
68,840
Woods
✟6,339,326.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
When your political allegiance decides not only your vote but who your friends are, when it makes you cut off those who have a different politics, when it makes you willing to tolerate a moral bankrupt as your candidate and to vote for him or her, when your politics begins to substitute for your theology, when it decides your moral values then is it right to call yourself a Christian?
I question the same but I’m not sure CF is a safe place to discuss it.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
11,893
9,914
65
Martinez
✟1,232,289.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am not affraid to stay the course and share the Gospel of truth even though it is to the choir. Jesus Christ of Nazareth said:

"And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another."

As Paul said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition..."

So we, who do not fall away and know the will of the Father need to put on the
" full Armor of God" and continue to spread the Gospel of truth and not be deterred by offense, betrayal or hate.

Blessings
 
Upvote 0

Richard T

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2018
3,898
2,337
traveling Asia
✟159,206.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Your alignment should always be with Jesus first. Too often people assume their political party is with God. Yes, some candidates might be, but never have I seen a party that is completely aligned with God. Most politicians would not even know. Besides Christianity is diverse. Where it gets tricky is when both candidates are not very good. I think it is ok to vote for the lesser of evils. Sometimes too its OK to not vote or vote for an independent. Politics is about who gets what, when and how. It is not theology. Politicians may state their own theology and it might filter into their politics but I don't see the two mixing as much as one might assume. Theologians too have problems knowing good public policy. They simply do not have the background or expertise in that area. There are some dedicated professions in those fields that are Christian but few rise to the point where they make a difference. Studies even show that politicians are not interested in what might work best according to research, they have other goals like getting re-elected.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,894
9,055
51
The Wild West
✟885,982.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
When your political allegiance decides not only your vote but who your friends are, when it makes you cut off those who have a different politics, when it makes you willing to tolerate a moral bankrupt as your candidate and to vote for him or her, when your politics begins to substitute for your theology, when it decides your moral values then is it right to call yourself a Christian?

Well, for these reasons I avoid adopting partisan positions, to avoid scandalizing any of the faithful. I privately support some politicians and privately oppose others, but the only issues I care about with regards to the vote are those which are relevant to Christianity - will this person persecute the church and traditional Christian morality and promote immoral behavior such as abortion, euthanasia, sexual promiscuity, genital mutilation (whether non-consensual as in the case of FGM or consensual as in the case of those suffering from gender dysphoria, which should be in my view regarded as a serious mental illness rather than as a basis to effectively sterilize people by catastrophically reconfiguring their sexual anatomy in such a way so that most such individuals are unable to reproduce after “gender-affirming surgery”, which cannot actually change their sex but which is purely cosmetic (there is also the risk of life with any such procedure); lately indeed this has become one of the more pressing issues, more pressing even than homosexual marraige, due to, in the US, widespread attempts by some state governments to indoctrinate young children in a pro-trans ideology, with things such as “Drag Queen Story Hour” and other abhorrent behaviors, and with some school districts persuading minors their issues are due to gender dysphoria, frankly I find it a bit dystopian. Also anyone who supports prolonging military conflicts in which Christians are being killed, or failing to act to stop the persecution of Christians, or anyone who would be opposed to the first amendment protections we enjoy in the US on freedom of worship, for these are existential threats to the Church and to Christian peoples.

Outside of those ecclesiastically sensitive issues, the only other issues which I care about politically are uncontroversial ones which pertain to infrastructure, for instance, my enthusiastic support for nuclear power, large scale flood control and drought prevention measures including a network of trans-continental aqueducts in the US and Canada, and improvements in transportation infrastructure and business - specifically, i should like to see more passenger rail service, more competition in the manufacture of passenger rail equipment, with a breakup of the Alsthom/Siemens duopoly and other efforts to increase competition and reduce costs, and also discourage the needless replacement of equipment which is still in viable servicable condition such as the Amfleet coaches in the US, the XPT carriages (and perhaps the power cars, but on that point I’m not sure, that’s another issue) in Australia, and the UIC-Z, Corail and ICRm carriages in Europe, particularly with electrical multiple units which, due to their motorization, tend to have a shorter lifespan than hauled carriages. I should like to see more urban transport. I should like to see a breakup of the Airbus / Boeing / Embraer triopoly, and a breakup of certain large airlines which are anti-competitive (this is particularly a problem in North America, where Mexico and Canada now have only one large international airline each, and the US only has three international airlines that operate at scale; as recently as 2007 there were six such airlines in the US, two in Mexico and two in Canada. Likewise, a reduction of consolidation among passenger car manufacturers, so as to ensure enhanced consumer choice, would be highly desirable, as well as efforts to rebuild and restore conventional retail left devastated by the Covid pandemic and related issues, such as the proliferation of e-commerce, which lately has deteriorated greatly in quality (Amazon has caused a number of problems of late, tolerating the sale of products such as refurbished computers that come with actual viruses preloaded) which has recently claimed even the venerable Hudsons Bay Company in Canada.

These issues aside, which pertain to infrastructure and are not really politically sensitive, and ecclesiastical issues, I refrain from anything else, in particular endorsing specific candidates publically.

I also seek to avoid under any circumstances losing a friend due to a difference in political opinion. I can’t think of a worse reason to sacrifice a friendship. It requires presupposing that their views being different from yours are the result of actual malice on their end as opposed to a difference of opinion but not of positive intent.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
43,247
23,929
US
✟1,837,835.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was in the Philippines during the "People's Revolution" that ousted Ferdinand Marcos.

There had for a while been a question of whether the US military in the Philippines would throw its support to Marcos if there were a (largely) bloodless revolution, or would we allow Corazon Aquino to be appointed the new president. Interestingly, we discovered afterward that at Clark Air Base, almost all of us who had a consistent Philippine Air Force contact, from the general down to me, had actually been asked that particular question by our contact before the revolution: If there were a revolution, who would the US support?

Our answer to the question had been, from the general down to me: If we will be allowed to continue our mission in the Philippines, we would be neutral in a peaceful revolution. We had already ascertained from Aquino that she would not interfere in our mission.

(It was then the Philippine Air Force that kicked off the revolution.)

It should also be understood that we never regarded "our mission" as directing the Philippine government operations. That was Marcos' misapprehension--he thought that because we did not try to force him to operate like the United States that we liked him. But it was never our mission to force the Philippine government to behave like the American government.

I feel much the same way regarding the Body of Christ in earthly nations. We are not here to force Caesar to act like Jesus or to force worldly governments to act like the Kingdom of Heaven (or even the kingdom of Israel). We are here to perform the mission of evangelism. What we need from them is just enough liberty to perform our mission, and historically we have been able to do that in any regime that can maintain basic social order.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,693
2,102
61
✟250,258.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Your alignment should always be with Jesus first. Too often people assume their political party is with God. Yes, some candidates might be, but never have I seen a party that is completely aligned with God.

I don't try to make a candidate adhere to biblical principles. I wouldn't be able to vote for one if I did. We get what we get.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
187,778
68,840
Woods
✟6,339,326.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't try to make a candidate adhere to biblical principles. I wouldn't be able to vote for one if I did. We get what we get.
I think what gets to most people is when a candidate claims they are a devout (fill in the blank) and advocate for things that are blatantly going against the teachings of the faith they claim to so devoutly follow. Biden comes to mind on this one…
 
  • Like
Reactions: BPPLEE
Upvote 0

Richard T

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2018
3,898
2,337
traveling Asia
✟159,206.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I don't try to make a candidate adhere to biblical principles. I wouldn't be able to vote for one if I did. We get what we get.
Yes, but relatively speaking some are more aligned than others, though this can be deceptive. I would choose a non-Christian with good policy over a Christian that could offer little.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,693
2,102
61
✟250,258.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
I think what gets to most people is when a candidate claims they are a devout (fill in the blank) and advocate for things that are blatantly going against the teachings of the faith they claim to so devoutly follow. Biden comes to mind on this one…

The "talking out of both sides of the mouth" aspect is always evident in any political candidate, even those claiming some sort of faith. We can hope for honesty, but that's not a known attribute of politicians.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Richard T
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,693
2,102
61
✟250,258.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, but relatively speaking some are more aligned than others, though this can be deceptive. I would choose a non-Christian with good policy over a Christian that could offer little.

I feel the same. It's a balancing act.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Richard T
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
187,778
68,840
Woods
✟6,339,326.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The "talking out of both sides of the mouth" aspect is always evident in any political candidate, even those claiming some sort of faith. We can hope for honesty, but that's not a known attribute of politicians.
Well I’ve learned that whatever they say to get the vote is the norm. Expecting a spiritual leader from the presidency is just an exercise in futility. So I don’t bother myself with those type of expectations. They are there to protect the rights of American citizens to the best of their ability while also juggling issues on the world stage. I don’t expect a Sunday sermon.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ARBITER01
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
43,247
23,929
US
✟1,837,835.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think what gets to most people is when a candidate claims they are a devout (fill in the blank) and advocate for things that are blatantly going against the teachings of the faith they claim to so devoutly follow. Biden comes to mind on this one…
Advocate and allow are different propositions.

Back in the colonial days, Roger Williams (the staunch Calvinist pastor who founded the first Baptist congregation in America) believed in complete separation of Church and State. His view of history was that the entanglement of Church and State inevitably led to conflict--war--between Christians and that it also put unbelievers into the pews. He was willing to allow the Holy Spirit alone to draw members into the pews with no coercion from the State, and not even advantages from the State. That's why he founded the colony of Rhode Island as a colony of absolute freedom of religion, even "for the heathen and the Muslim." Williams inserted that Separatist concept into the political conversation in America, and it was his state, Rhode Island, that was directly responsible for the First Amendment.

I agree with Williams: We don't want the state either forcing or enticing unbelievers into the pews.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
187,778
68,840
Woods
✟6,339,326.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Like I said, I think the disgust comes in when they play the devout card when running and some expect it to become a part of their holding office. Or claiming to be devout and do the opposite when elected. If there really is separation of Church and State, it seems to be that those issues should be off the table when campaigning.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,693
2,102
61
✟250,258.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Well I’ve learned that whatever they say to get the vote is the norm. Expecting a spiritual leader from the presidency is just an exercise in futility. So I don’t bother myself with those type of expectations. They are there to protect the rights of American citizens to the best of their ability while also juggling issues on the world stage. I don’t expect a Sunday sermon.

Correct.

I can't foist my Christian beliefs upon a candidate, and then refuse to vote for them if they don't follow through. It's an exercise in futility. What am I gaining with such an attitude?

I can't consider President Trump to be a pastor, again that would be a ridiculous assumption on my part, but I can hope and expect that he makes mostly righteous choices and decisions for our country though. I think that is a good position to take.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Michie
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
43,247
23,929
US
✟1,837,835.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Like I said, I think the disgust comes in when they play the devout card when running and some expect it to become a part of their holding office. Or claiming to be devout and do the opposite when elected. If there really is separation of Church and State, it seems to be that those issues should be off the table when campaigning.
In this fallen world of tooth and claw, cloak and dagger, there is no world leader who will not have to perform actions against Godliness.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
43,247
23,929
US
✟1,837,835.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Correct.

I can't foist my Christian beliefs upon a candidate, and then refuse to vote for them if they don't follow through. It's an exercise in futility. What am I gaining with such an attitude?

I can't consider President Trump to be a pastor, again that would be a ridiculous assumption on my part, but I can hope and expect that he makes mostly righteous choices and decisions for our country though. I think that is a good position to take.
I can also hope he (and nobody else) doesn't paste Jesus' name on his actions when he doesn't.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,760
2,585
Perth
✟223,511.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
[NRSVUE psa 2.1-4] Psalm 2 1 Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and his anointed, saying, 3 “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast their cords from us.”

There's wisdom in taking a somewhat jaundiced view of politicians and their plans.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RDKirk
Upvote 0