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Evolution conflict and division

Job 33:6

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So, which is it for Christian theists, i.e., a supernatural event, or not?
You’ll need to clarify what you mean by “supernatural act.” Are you referring to discrete miracle-events that override or suspend normal biological processes at each birth, or to God’s ongoing providential action through natural processes?
 
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o_mlly

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You’ll need to clarify what you mean by “supernatural act.” Are you referring to discrete miracle-events that override or suspend normal biological processes at each birth, or to God’s ongoing providential action through natural processes?
The standard definition works well. An act attributed to a power (God) that is beyond natural processes.
 
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o_mlly

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Scripture supports microevolution (as I do) but not macroevolution.

11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind.
21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.
24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
 
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Job 33:6

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The standard definition works well. An act attributed to a power (God) that is beyond natural processes.
Under that definition, theistic evolution has no difficulty affirming a supernatural act in the broad sense, namely, God as the ultimate source and sustainer of life, acting beyond nature, and also through nature and natural mechanisms, as its ground.

Human existence depends on God in a supernatural sense, but not in a way that implies constant violations of physics or biology.

As far as I am aware, all Christian frameworks already affirm dependence on God beyond natural processes. If someone didn't, then they would probably be either deist or perhaps naturalism or atheist.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Scripture supports microevolution (as I do) but not macroevolution.

11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind.
21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.
24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

That's funny. When I read Genesis 1, I don't see any insinuations of evolution whatsoever, whether macro or micro.

However I do see a lot of poetic statements reflecting A.N.E. historiography in the form of cosmogony (even if Genesis 1 obviously is an intentional inversion of the competing religious myth-oi of Mesopotamian and Egyptian peoples).

I let the Bible be what it is ---- ancient, foreign, religious literature, prophetic even ---- and not press it into categories of thought that we use today in 21st century science.
 
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Job 33:6

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Scripture supports microevolution (as I do) but not macroevolution.

11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind.
21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.
24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
I can't speak for everyone, and each person here is different in how we read Genesis. But generally speaking, most people here do not view Genesis 1 as being a scientifically concordant grammatical historical account.

I know that is an odd way to word things. But if you understand what these terms mean, you'll know that most here would disagree with the hermeneutic underlying your comment.

And I'll give an example to help:

Imagine a person is having lunch with a friend. He then says: "Man, I'm really excited, the Falcons massacred the Colts last night".

Now, in the 21st century, this might be interpreted as American NFL football, the Atlanta Falcons defeated the Indianapolis Colts by throwing a ball, catching it in an end zone and scoring points.

But imagine if the people having this conversation lived in the 1700s. Now, it awkwardly ends up being a conversation about birds attacking a bunch of horses.

Words can mean very very different things depending on the contextual background.

Most theistic evolutionists think about the Bible in terms of how the original authors and audience (the ancient Isrealites) would have read scripture. As opposed to how modern Americans might read scripture today.

And if you start with that hermeneutical approach, you'll better understand why or how people can read Genesis without interpreting anything about evolution in the text. Ie, Moses wasn't a 21st century biologist so why would he or any other Hebrew speaking Isrealites be communicating on such a matter?
 
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The Barbarian

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So, theistic-evolution is not a science?
Neither is theistic physics. Can you see why?
If it is not science then is it primarily a religion, and only secondarily a science?
Technically, like YE creationism and ID, it's a religious belief. It's not a science at all. It's merely a religious belief that accepts the way God created new species.
That is, a theistic evolutionist's religious beliefs can never be displaced or altered by his scientific claims?
St. Augustine once noted that a Christian should be willing to change his interpretation of scripture if new evidence so indicated. That's pretty much what most Christians think. Of course there are other religions that accept the fact of evolution; I can't speak for them.
Theistic evolution is the effort to reconcile Darwin’s theory of undirected evolution with belief in God in general and Christian theology in particular."
Darwin's great discovery was that it isn't undirected. Natural selection tends to direct changes in populations that make them more fit.
 
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The Barbarian

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Scripture supports microevolution (as I do) but not macroevolution.
You merely inserted your beliefs into scripture.
24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
You'll accept that He did it, but you aren't willing to accept how He did it. The verse doesn't say how those kinds were produced. Am I to believe you think evolution within a "kind" is acceptable, but not new "kinds?"
 
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The Barbarian

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So, which is it for Christian theists, i.e., a supernatural event, or not?
Our bodies are produced naturally. But our souls are given immediately by God. That's Christian doctrine. At least every Christian I've asked about it.
 
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o_mlly

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Under that definition, theistic evolution has no difficulty affirming a supernatural act in the broad sense, namely, God as the ultimate source and sustainer of life, acting beyond nature, and also through nature and natural mechanisms, as its ground.
But that was not the question proposed -- Is God as the ultimate source and sustainer of life. The question asked was not broad but specific: Do theistic evolutionists hold that every human being -- from Adam to the present -- required a supernatural act to come into existence?
Human existence depends on God in a supernatural sense, but not in a way that implies constant violations of physics or biology.
? No violations of natural laws are required, constant or otherwise, to answer the question.
 
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River Jordan

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Scripture supports microevolution (as I do) but not macroevolution.

11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind.
21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.
24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Only to people who ignorantly think evolution is something like "a dog giving birth to a cat". To those who understand how evolution actually works however those verses pose no problem at all.
 
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Job 33:6

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But that was not the question proposed -- Is God as the ultimate source and sustainer of life. The question asked was not broad but specific: Do theistic evolutionists hold that every human being -- from Adam to the present -- required a supernatural act to come into existence?

? No violations of natural laws are required, constant or otherwise, to answer the question.
If by “supernatural act” you mean God’s continual creative and sustaining causation, then yes, every human existence depends on God in that sense, and this is affirmed by all Christian frameworks, not uniquely by theistic evolution.

If, however, you mean a discrete, individual divine intervention distinguishable from ordinary biological causation, then theistic evolution does not require that assumption, nor is it required by classical Christian theology.

Without clarifying which of these you mean, the question cannot be answered in a non-trivial way.

I'll give a couple examples to help distinguish these topics:

Exodus 14:21-22
“Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the LORD drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.”

The splitting of the red sea would be a form of an intervention/miracle.

Colossians 1:16-17
“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible… all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Or

Colossians 1:17
“He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Or

Job 38:33
“Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you establish their rule on the earth?”

These would be example of passages that reflect divine acts of sustainance. Holding things together. Establishing the rule of the heavens.

Intervention and divine sustaining are both supernatural in source, but they are not the same kind of act. Divine sustaining operates through natural causes and applies universally; intervention interrupts or exceeds them and is exceptional. Regarding your question, if every human being requires a supernatural act, if you mean the former, all Christian frameworks affirm it. If you mean the latter, theistic evolution does not require it.
 
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o_mlly

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That's funny. When I read Genesis 1, I don't see any insinuations of evolution whatsoever ...
Some in this thread have claimed that Scripture does supports evolution. My post refutes the validity of those claims. Glad you agree.
Genesis 1:24 states that the earth “brought forth” living creatures. ...

Genesis consistently describes ordering, assignment, and function. Reading it as a concordant account of material origins, whether of the earth or of life, imports assumptions the text itself does not supply.
 
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The Barbarian

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But that was not the question proposed -- Is God as the ultimate source and sustainer of life.
Science is only about the natural universe. If faith won't do it for you, science can't help. Fortunately, science is not the only way of knowing.
The question asked was not broad but specific: Do theistic evolutionists hold that every human being -- from Adam to the present -- required a supernatural act to come into existence?
And faith can answer that for you. Why would you want to bring science into it?
 
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o_mlly

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Technically, like YE creationism and ID, it's (theistic evolution) a religious belief. It's not a science at all.
Progress, at last. Glad I was a able to help. We'll let the YE creationists and ID people make their own cases.
You'll accept that He did it, but you aren't willing to accept how He did it.
Did He reveal to us how He did it? If you think so then show us your source. Otherwise, the claim is merely the provisional claim of fallible human intellect. And one in which other human intellects disagree.
 
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Job 33:6

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Some in this thread have claimed that Scripture does supports evolution. My post refutes the validity of those claims. Glad you agree.
Are you interpreting my words here as supporting evolution? I never mentioned evolution where you quoted me. Or were you planning to say something more?

When I read Genesis 1, I also don't see any insinuations of evolution whatsoever. In case there was any confusion on the matter.

Genesis also doesn't say anything about heliocentrism or AI or social media or ... Many other things. Though I acknowledge these concepts to be true or real nonetheless.
 
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o_mlly

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If, however, you mean a discrete, individual divine intervention distinguishable from ordinary biological causation ...
Please read the question more carefully. The event is not an intervention, as if to frustrate a natural event, but a positive supernatural act unexplainable by science.
If, however, you mean a discrete, individual divine intervention distinguishable from ordinary biological causation, then theistic evolution does not require that assumption, nor is it required by classical Christian theology.
? @The Barbarian disagrees.
But our souls are given immediately by God. That's Christian doctrine. At least every Christian I've asked about it.
 
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o_mlly

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Darwin's great discovery was that it isn't undirected. Natural selection tends to direct changes in populations that make them more fit.
So, you agree that his other idea, i.e., random mutations, as an unguided process, has been relegated to the dustbin?
 
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Job 33:6

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Please read the question more carefully. The event is not an intervention, as if to frustrate a natural event, but a positive supernatural act unexplainable by science.

? @The Barbarian disagrees.
Under your definition of a “positive supernatural act unexplainable by science,” theistic evolution can affirm such acts in the sense that God is the ultimate cause of every human life, acting in ways that are beyond scientific explanation, even while working through natural processes.

Thank you for narrowing your definition.
 
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o_mlly

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Are you interpreting my words here as supporting evolution? I never mentioned evolution where you quoted me. Or were you planning to say something more?

When I read Genesis 1, I also don't see any insinuations of evolution whatsoever.
Good. We agree the Bible is not a science book.
 
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