• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

THE GREAT CONTROVERSY in Baltimore, Maryland

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
15,186
5,950
USA
✟802,125.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps the AI was edited out key details (it appears edited from standard Chat formatting) or perhaps AI likes to debate itself, I posted the allegations into my chat and this was its response

What’s strong about it​


  • Clear method: primary sources / textual criticism / archaeology / cross-checking. That’s basically how historians work.
  • Right category distinction: it correctly frames The Great Controversy as theological-apocalyptic narrative, not a modern academic monograph.
  • It flags a real risk: GC often tells history as a moral trajectory (purity → compromise → coercive power), and that kind of narrative can lead to selective emphasis.

Where it’s weak / potentially misleading​


1) It doesn’t actually “enumerate claims” with citations​


It says “commonly cited from The Great Controversy,” but it never gives page numbers or direct quotations from GC for each claim.


That matters because:


  • Some of these “claims” are summaries (sometimes sharpened) of a broader argument.
  • Without exact wording, it’s easy to argue against a stronger or simpler version than what the book really says.

If you want to judge fairness, the minimum standard is: quote the sentence(s) from GC + page and then compare.


2) It sometimes treats “nuance exists” as if it refutes the point​


Example: Constantine. Saying “motives are complex and debated” is true, but it doesn’t automatically make EGW’s skepticism “historically wrong.” It means the claim should be presented as interpretation, not as settled fact. The critique does catch that, but it then leans into “overstated” without showing GC’s exact wording.


3) Some items are framed too absolutely​


A few sections read like: “historians say this is false,” but in reality, historians often say: “that causal story is too simple” or “evidence is mixed.”


The clearest example is the Sunday / paganism point. A more careful critique would distinguish:


  • (A) Sunday gathering before Constantine (true, widely attested)
  • (B) later imperial policy + social incentives + anti-Jewish dynamics
  • (C) the degree to which sun-cult language/symbolism influenced some rhetoric and politics

You can reject “primarily to accommodate sun worship” while still admitting some cultural and political crossover later. The pasted critique collapses that into a clean “❌ doubtful” without mapping the layered history.


4) It assumes a modern “development ≠ corruption” framework​


On “apostasy,” it argues there was no “wholesale doctrinal collapse,” and it lists early writers with core beliefs. Fair enough.


But GC’s argument (whether you agree or not) isn’t usually “everything became heresy instantly.” It’s more like: a trend toward compromise + human authority + coercion grew over time. That’s not the same claim, and the critique should show it understands that difference.


5) It mixes categories: “historically inaccurate” vs “theological disagreement”​


Some of its bullets aren’t factual claims (“bishops were ambitious,” “paganism imported wholesale,” “rapid apostasy”) so much as interpretive judgments about motives and trajectories. Those are much harder to label “objectively false” than, say, a wrong date or a misquote.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,754
8,976
51
The Wild West
✟874,384.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Thank you for your excellent (as usual) post. It is troubling to me that none of our SDA friends seem to be willing to defend what seems to be their core manual.

Well the credit goes to chatGPT 5.2 in this case, but should advise, as we saw in the numerous threads where members attempted a kind of oracular use of various LLMs, what it says now might not be what it says tomorrow or under all conditions.

By the way, I used the freely publicly available chatGPT 5.2 in that query; if you or anyone else felt so inclined as to repeat my query and post your results that would I think be useful in addressing this matter, since my knowledge of chatGPT means that its highly likely someone will accuse me of prompt hacking (which is certainly not the case).
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,754
8,976
51
The Wild West
✟874,384.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Perhaps the AI was edited out key details (it appears edited from standard Chat formatting) or perhaps AI likes to debate itself, I posted the allegations into my chat and this was its response

Ah, there it is, I knew I would be falsely accused of prompt hacking, so I took a screenshot as an insurance against such an ad hominem attack.

Nothing was edited out, as you can see:

IMG_0060.jpeg





Now, regarding your case, you haven’t specified which AI you’re talking to - what is “your chat”? Is it an ongoing conversation, or a freshly initialized one? Of course 5.2 can nitpick itself, and it will do so if asked, but that rather proves my earlier point about the unreliability of AI for your use cases.

At any rate I will expect an apology for the false accusation of prompt hacking + as required by forum rules an exact citation of the AI you are now quoting, that states which AI you are talking to and the model version (you said “chat” but that could be any number of different products).
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
15,186
5,950
USA
✟802,125.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Ah, there it is, I knew I would be falsely accused of prompt hacking, so I took a screenshot as an insurance against such an ad hominem attack.

Nothing was edited out, as you can see:

View attachment 375374




Now, regarding your case, you haven’t specified which AI you’re talking to - what is “your chat”? Is it an ongoing conversation, or a freshly initialized one? Of course 5.2 can nitpick itself, and it will do so if asked, but that rather proves my earlier point about the unreliability of AI for your use cases.

At any rate I will expect an apology for the false accusation of prompt hacking + as required by forum rules an exact citation of the AI you are now quoting, that states which AI you are talking to and the model version (you said “chat” but that could be any number of different products).
Saying "perhaps" which is different than I accuse you. You were not falsely accused of anything.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,466
14,121
74
✟449,148.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Saying "perhaps" which is different than I accuse you. You were not falsely accused of anything.
As requested by The Liturgist please provide "an exact citation of the AI you are now quoting, that states which AI you are talking to and the model version (you said “chat” but that could be any number of different products)."
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,754
8,976
51
The Wild West
✟874,384.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Saying "perhaps" which is different than I accuse you. You were not falsely accused of anything.

I don’t see how speculating openly that someone has “edited out” “key details” of their interaction with the AI could be regarded as anything other than an accusation; certainly it does not seem particularly charitable, or lacking in judgement, or an exemplary reflection of the New Commandment Christ gave to us in John 13:34, one which I would assume you place a high value on given how much you love to quote John ch. 14, “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

But as @bbbbbbb rightly points out, while this denial of accusation seems shocking, it also remains irrelevant, since the fact of the matter is this - I documented which AI I was using, in accordance with site rules that require AI conversations to be clearly sourced.

In your case, it appears you are claiming to have had a conversation with an AI, since you said “I posted the allegations into my chat and this was its response” but you haven’t cited the AI that generated the output in compliance with forum rules, so I have no way of attempting to validate your claims, which fairness requires, since if chatGPT 5.2 is criticizing its output, I want to know that, but as it stands right now I have no idea which AI you were using, or which version. ChatGPT 5.2 you know operates in a few different modes - Auto (default), Instant, Thinking, which uses a reasoning model similar to Grok, o4-mini and o4-mini-high, but slower and more careful. Enterprise customers like me also have access to 5.2 Pro, as well as 5.1 , in all three flavors, GPT 5 (which is rather worthless in my opinion), and the classic models like 4o, o4mini, o4mini-high, o3pro and a few others, of which 4o and the o4 models are the ones I prefer to work with, however in this case for ease of third party replication I ran the prompt on GPT 5.2 instant, just about the most plain vanilla model and one guaranteed to be freely available to end users.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
15,186
5,950
USA
✟802,125.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don’t see how speculating openly that someone has “edited out” “key details” of their interaction with the AI could be regarded as anything other than an accusation;
I am not sure if you are actually reading what was said I said "perhaps" which is different than ''that someone has edited out”

And I stated my reasons why the format looked different. It was not an accusation, it was something that was a possibility, there is a difference.

Per your request I copied exactly what you stated in ChatGPT, my chat wasn't convinced with your conclusions.

1768564099033.png
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,754
8,976
51
The Wild West
✟874,384.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I am not sure if you are actually reading what was said I said "perhaps" which is different than ''that someone has edited out”

And I stated my reasons why the format looked different. It was not an accusation, it was something that was a possibility, there is a difference.

Per your request I copied exactly what you stated in ChatGPT, my chat wasn't convinced with your conclusions.

View attachment 375401

Well, we don’t know what “your chat” thought at present with absolute certainty because what you supplied was a screenshot of your input, and not of the model’s output.

Now, unlike you, I never called into question the veracity of the output but rather desired a citation as to which model said it, which is presumably 5.2 although I would very much like to know whether it was 5.2 Auto, Instant or Thinking that generated the actual version (if you were to give us a screenshot of what the menu option looks like that says ChatGPT 5.2 with the drop down) that would be most helpful.

You see, I’ve never accused you of failing to disclose part of the output, nor of providing manipulated data, although I would note the screenshot you’ve provided does not show the output, but unlike you, I’m not going to speculate and suggest that there might be missing data, because that would not only be uncalled for (the prompt you showed me does look like the kind of recursive contradictory flip-flopping you get if you feed the output of one LLM prompt to another, which is why i’ve advised you all not to use it.

I will however note that the fact that you asked it “What do you think about this” invited subjective analysis of the prompt and did not induce a double-checking of the factual statements on a pattern matching basis; indeed that you would ask it that, of all questions, a subjective-open ended question, demonstrates the very lack of analytical rigor in the use of AIs by some members that I have been complaining about for some months.

But more concerning than that is that 5.2 is apparently being treated as correct and praiseworthy when it agrees with The Great Controversy, or at least, appears to challenging an AI prompt that itself debunked the historical claims of The Great Controversy (which was hardly a novel accomplishment on the part of chatGPT 5.2 for the nature of that work is such that it has been repeatedly been debunked by historians hundreds of times since its release, since it refers to things happening at the Council of Nicaea which are not recorded in the historical record, it imputes powers to the Bishop of Rome which only Adventists, Landmark Baptists, and, ironically, fundamentalist trad Catholics, think the Bishop of Rome had at the time, it ignores the role of the Greek, Egyptian and Syrian churches despite the fact that they were literally the battle ground where the events of Nicaea took place, with all of the bishops at the Council of Nicaea except perhaps the two Papal legates (if I recall they were not themselves bishops but rather lower ranked clergy sent to the council) being Hellenophones, and it also disregards the importance of the council towards the defense of the very doctrine Adventists credit Ellen G. White for promoting in their quarters, that of the Holy Trinity, since obviously had the Council sided with Arius instead of St. Athanasius, the Trinity and the deity of Christ would not exist as possible beliefs, which is why through the Holy Spirit the Council was moved to embrace the Incarnation over Arianism and thus we are able to debate the matter).

Thus as I have said - AI, when used on subjective output, is unreliable. For example, “what do you think of this” is not a reliable term to use (also the output of such a subjective indicator changes randomly, not unlike asking it to pick a color, and is also affected by past interactions, even if the “chat” you just opened is fresh, due to session memory and global memory.

AI can be reliable when trained on objective data using pattern matching, for example, identifying if an image depicts a dog or a cat, or finding the bug in python code, or analyzing the veracity of historical claims in a 19th century book (although in this case it can be helfpul to use one of the premium reasoning models, like 5.2 Pro, o4mini or o4mini-high, or o3 Pro, which I have access to, although I’m not inclined to waste my limited monthly runcycles on a low-interest subject like this (although if you are curious as to what they have to say, hit me up before my next monthly renewal, on say, February the 5th, and if I have any available runs I might point them at the question).
 
Upvote 0
Jun 26, 2003
9,068
1,650
Visit site
✟315,442.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
That was an excellent post Liturgist. Even though it used AI it appears well thought out

It is my sincere belief that our SDA friends sincerely desire to honor and worship God, but their point of view is narrowed because someone has told them that they will follow Satan if they doubt what they are told or will be given over to the mark of the beast. This is strong delusion which is not easily overcome. When their mind begins to ponder, the fear response comes and says stop you are being deceived, you cannot give up the Sabbath.
We can only pray and treat them with compassion. What they can’t understand is that they are keeping a law and scripture tells us


21 I cast not away the grace of God. For if justice be by the law, then Christ died in vain.

I live among them and interact with them every day. It is very frustrating, and neither I nor we will be able to convince them of their error. God’s strength is made perfect in weakness. Instead of frustration and anger, we should rejoice that we are not strong enough to convince them, yet we have grace enough not to fall prey to the deception.
I like this article that I found, as it analyzes the history of the Sabbath and critiques the SDA point of view. I showed me that it is really futile to even try to keep the exact Sabbath day. We spiritually keep the Sabbath principle of resting one day in seven.
The Jewish Sabbath was marked by the shedding of blood, as without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin. The shedding of blood was to shield us as God’s presence drew near. It was not the Sabbath exact day of the week, rather what was happening on that day that was important. The people were to rest in God’s presence one day in seven. In the Catholic Church, we offer the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ obligated to the faithful one day in seven. That is our Sabbath. Mass is said everyday, as God is not limited to one day anymore in the New Covenant, but the obligation for the faithful is one day in seven and certain other holy days of obligation throughout the year

This is a very good article in my opinion

 
Upvote 0