What Jesus Said About Adam and Eve

The Barbarian · Dec 16, 2025

The Liturgist said:
I’m not sure I get what your point is or the reason for your outrage at Mark.

I'm just saying it's disrespectful to regard God as a mere "designer." "Outrage" seems to be someone else's reaction to the observation. As I pointed out before, it's not something that will send one to hell; it's just selling God short.

The Liturgist said:
Also you seem to be … upset, curiously, about the idea of humans being holy aside from the soul.

Since no one mentioned that here, I'm puzzled why you would think so. I suppose if you thought that God using nature to make our bodies, as opposed to directly giving us a living soul, means bodies can't be holy, then maybe. But no one said that, either.
Edit: there was the issue of an odd belief that assumed the natural is imperfect and the supernatural is not. But I don't think that this is what you're saying here.

The Liturgist said:
but Genesis 1 is important as a prophetic text, for in Holy Week God remade us as he made us in Genesis 1, on Great and Holy Friday, before resting on the Sabbath and rising from the dead on Sunday, the first day, also typologically symbolizing the mystical eighth day of creation, that of the Life of the World to Come.

That's one of the things it is.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

But it's also a clear distinction between God and the gods of other nations, making clear that the God of Abraham is the omnipotent Creator with no other gods at all. He did not have to bring the universe into His control; He created it to do His will.

The Liturgist said:
Roman Catholics had historically celebrated the Dormition, which is also called the Assumption, but some erroneously believe she did not repose but was assumed while still alive,

The Western Church teaches that after her life, Mary was assumed, body and soul into heaven. The Eastern Church seems to put more emphasis on this moment, but other than noting that the Dormition of the Theotokos is often depicted in Orthodox churches, I don't know much about any differences in theology.

None of this is actually an issue for salvation, as God makes it clear what will save us.

Firstlightdawn · 2026-01-23T03:23:59-0600

BobRyan said:
Matt 19: 4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

God made them male and female at the beginning on day one, not day six. Notice the male is listed first because the female comes from the male. Of course that was when they were "without form and void."

1 Corinthians 11:12 — “As the woman is from the man, even so the man also is through the woman; but all things are from God.”

Firstlightdawn · 2026-01-23T03:34:23-0600

The Barbarian said:
Do you have a verse wherein He says all scripture is meant to be understood literally?

In our Bible college, we are trained to teach children only the literal text of Scripture. They do not learn the shadows and types until they move into the sanctuary to hear the pastor preach. The Greek word for “types” is tupoi, and this teaching is found primarily in Paul’s writings.

David Lamb · 2026-01-23T04:20:06-0600

Firstlightdawn said:
God made them male and female at the beginning on day one, not day six. Notice the male is listed first because the female comes from the male. Of course that was when they were "without form and void."

1 Corinthians 11:12 — “As the woman is from the man, even so the man also is through the woman; but all things are from God.”

Sorry, but where do you find in Genesis that God made them male and female at the beginning on day one? The description of What God did on Day One is:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.”

“Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was] good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.” (Ge 1:1-5 NKJV)

So there, we see the heavens and the earth, and light created, and darkness divided from light. Nothing about male and female, or even human beings. And it was the earth that was without form and void, not the man and the woman.

Firstlightdawn · 2026-01-23T06:19:23-0600

David Lamb said:
Sorry, but where do you find in Genesis that God made them male and female at the beginning on day one?

In physics, the smallest measurable instant is called the Planck time. It’s not a theological claim—just the limit of what science can measure. Scripture calls that first instant “the beginning.” Genesis 1:1–5 shows God creating the heavens, the earth, and Day One itself. Ecclesiastes 3:14 says nothing can be added to what God has done, which matches the basic observation that once the universe exists, its total energy does not increase. The Bible presents the beginning as the moment God brings everything into existence at once, perfectly balanced in a way only God can accomplish.

• Matthew 19:4 — “from the beginning” God made them male and female • Matthew 19:5 — He quotes Genesis 2 about the two becoming one flesh • Matthew 19:6 — He concludes, “What God has joined together, let not man separate”

David Lamb · 2026-01-23T06:27:36-0600

Firstlightdawn said:
In physics, the smallest measurable instant is called the Planck time. It’s not a theological claim—just the limit of what science can measure. Scripture calls that first instant “the beginning.” Genesis 1:1–5 shows God creating the heavens, the earth, and Day One itself. Ecclesiastes 3:14 says nothing can be added to what God has done, which matches the basic observation that once the universe exists, its total energy does not increase. The Bible presents the beginning as the moment God brings everything into existence at once, perfectly balanced in a way only God can accomplish.

• Matthew 19:4 — “from the beginning” God made them male and female • Matthew 19:5 — He quotes Genesis 2 about the two becoming one flesh • Matthew 19:6 — He concludes, “What God has joined together, let not man separate”

When the bible says that from the beginning God made them male and female, there is no indication that it is talking about the Planck time instant of the beginning of the first day of creation. What would it even mean to say that God made them male and female five days before there was any "them?" How could two not-yet-existing humans "become one flesh?"

The Barbarian · 2026-01-23T08:07:17-0600

Do you have a verse wherein He says all scripture is meant to be understood literally?

Firstlightdawn said:
In our Bible college, we are trained to teach children only the literal text of Scripture.

So just man's interpretation? Nothing else?

FireDragon76 · 2026-01-23T09:15:43-0600

David Lamb said:
When the bible says that from the beginning God made them male and female, there is no indication that it is talking about the Planck time instant of the beginning of the first day of creation. What would it even mean to say that God made them male and female five days before there was any "them?" How could two not-yet-existing humans "become one flesh?"

It could be interpreted in a vaguely Neoplatonic sense, but then at that point we are already beyond the kind of naive realism that I'm guessing is the implicit assumption here.

Jesus doesn't always use language in the kind of precise, analytical philosophical terms, something else to keep in mind. "from the beginning" is a reference to the primordial origin story, not a literal beginning of space-time.

The Liturgist · 2026-01-23T10:38:25-0600

Firstlightdawn said:
In physics, the smallest measurable instant is called the Planck time. It’s not a theological claim—just the limit of what science can measure. Scripture calls that first instant “the beginning.” Genesis 1:1–5 shows God creating the heavens, the earth, and Day One itself. Ecclesiastes 3:14 says nothing can be added to what God has done, which matches the basic observation that once the universe exists, its total energy does not increase. The Bible presents the beginning as the moment God brings everything into existence at once, perfectly balanced in a way only God can accomplish.

• Matthew 19:4 — “from the beginning” God made them male and female • Matthew 19:5 — He quotes Genesis 2 about the two becoming one flesh • Matthew 19:6 — He concludes, “What God has joined together, let not man separate”

Alas the problem with trying to mix physics with quantum mechanics and quantum gravity is that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle arises like a loathesome Leviathan if one tries to say definitively what happened in an instant of Planck time - remember, the Placnk scale is a measure of spacetime, and the problem is that due to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, quantum fluctuations - proven to exist (see the Casimir effect) result in virtual particles popping into and winking out of existence in what is called “quantum foam.” We know God created the universe in this manner, but we have no certain knowledge of how it all ties together - hence the problems proving any theory of quantum gravity such as String Theory. Indeed the planck scale is actually too small to even be measured; Freeman Dyson pointed out that any attempt to do so would create a Black Hole.

So if one wishes to stay to pure scripture, fine, good, but stay to scripture then - bringing in quantum mechanics will only cause confusion.

Especially with children, I mean, goodness gracious, we’re talking about kids who are still doing volcanoes as science fair projects, and who haven’t even learned classical physics, and you want to throw in the Planck time? Might as well include gravitational waves, special relativity, Feynman diagrams, and Lorentz transformations while you’re at it.

The Barbarian · 2026-01-23T10:46:31-0600

FireDragon76 said:
Jesus doesn't always use language in the kind of precise, analytical philosophical terms, something else to keep in mind. "from the beginning" is a reference to the primordial origin story, not a literal beginning of space-time.

Yes, He clearly was referring to the beginning of our race.

FireDragon76 · 2026-01-23T11:27:16-0600

The Liturgist said:
Alas the problem with trying to mix physics with quantum mechanics and quantum gravity is that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle arises like a loathesome Leviathan if one tries to say definitively what happened in an instant of Planck time - remember, the Placnk scale is a measure of spacetime, and the problem is that due to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, quantum fluctuations - proven to exist (see the Casimir effect) result in virtual particles popping into and winking out of existence in what is called “quantum foam.” We know God created the universe in this manner, but we have no certain knowledge of how it all ties together - hence the problems proving any theory of quantum gravity such as String Theory. Indeed the planck scale is actually too small to even be measured; Freeman Dyson pointed out that any attempt to do so would create a Black Hole.

So if one wishes to stay to pure scripture, fine, good, but stay to scripture then - bringing in quantum mechanics will only cause confusion.

Especially with children, I mean, goodness gracious, we’re talking about kids who are still doing volcanoes as science fair projects, and who haven’t even learned classical physics, and you want to throw in the Planck time? Might as well include gravitational waves, special relativity, Feynman diagrams, and Lorentz transformations while you’re at it.

I have a feeling the double slit experiment is very simple. Imagine bisecting a curve. You get a point. But the curve itself is continuous. That's all a particle is, what happens when you measure something that isn't completely discrete, with a finite tool.

Reality is such that we can see both continuous and discrete features. Modern science has yet to deal seriously with metaphysics, they are still dealing with the problem of the one and the many, and hung up on the many part.

Firstlightdawn · 2026-01-23T14:34:39-0600

The Liturgist said:
Alas the problem with trying to mix physics with quantum mechanics and quantum gravity is that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle arises like a loathesome Leviathan if one tries to say definitively what happened in an instant of Planck time - remember, the Placnk scale is a measure of spacetime, and the problem is that due to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, quantum fluctuations - proven to exist (see the Casimir effect) result in virtual particles popping into and winking out of existence in what is called “quantum foam.” We know God created the universe in this manner, but we have no certain knowledge of how it all ties together - hence the problems proving any theory of quantum gravity such as String Theory. Indeed the planck scale is actually too small to even be measured; Freeman Dyson pointed out that any attempt to do so would create a Black Hole.

So if one wishes to stay to pure scripture, fine, good, but stay to scripture then - bringing in quantum mechanics will only cause confusion.

Especially with children, I mean, goodness gracious, we’re talking about kids who are still doing volcanoes as science fair projects, and who haven’t even learned classical physics, and you want to throw in the Planck time? Might as well include gravitational waves, special relativity, Feynman diagrams, and Lorentz transformations while you’re at it.

First of all, I want to know the meaning of the word: "Beginning" the very first word in the Bible. Things can "POP" in and out all they want. Over all of time the ratio of time to expansion is 1.98. You can pick any point in time or location in creation and that is the direct correlation between the two. We see this on a cone and we measure from the center. So the size of the universe depends on where we are in the universe. The universe revolves around us and the universe revolved around everything in the universe. Because they were all united together in the beginning.

You are right that this is especially for children. I took four teacher training classes so I am taught how to relate to children. I use things like tops. and springs to show them how balanced the universe is. In the beginning everything was perfectly balanced. Because in the beginning was God. The beginning is a focal point that the universe continues to balance on.

Planck means subject to the laws of physics. This may not be defined but this is observable. Before Planck the laws of physics do not apply to whatever is there at that point. There is nothing that takes place on the first day that is not a part of the first planck unit. Even if people use it in their own way.

Stephen Hawking — talks about the Planck era in A Brief History of Time and other works. Steven Weinberg — discusses the Planck time in The First Three Minutes. Alan Guth — references the Planck scale when explaining inflation. Roger Penrose — discusses Planck‑scale physics in multiple books. Sean Carroll — talks about the Planck era in From Eternity to Here. Alexander Vilenkin — references the Planck boundary in cosmology. Lawrence Krauss — mentions the Planck time in A Universe from Nothing. Brian Greene — discusses Planck‑scale limits in The Elegant Universe. Paul Davies — talks about Planck‑scale physics in several books. William Lane Craig — uses the Planck time as the earliest definable physical moment.

Firstlightdawn · 2026-01-23T14:38:30-0600

Firstlightdawn said:
First of all, I want to know the meaning of the word: "Beginning" the very first word in the Bible. Things can "POP" in and out all they want. Over all of time the ratio of time to expansion is 1.98. You can pick any point in time or location in creation and that is the direct correlation between the two. We see this on a cone and we measure from the center. So the size of the universe depends on where we are in the universe. The universe revolves around us and the universe revolved around everything in the universe. Because they were all united together in the beginning.

You are right that this is especially for children. I took four teacher training classes so I am taught how to relate to children. I use things like tops. and springs to show them how balanced the universe is. In the beginning everything was perfectly balanced. Because in the beginning was God. The beginning is a focal point that the universe continues to balance on.

Planck means subject to the laws of physics. This may not be defined but this is observable. Before Planck the laws of physics do not apply to whatever is there at that point. There is nothing that takes place on the first day that is not a part of the first planck unit. Even if people use it in their own way.

Stephen Hawking — talks about the Planck era in A Brief History of Time and other works. Steven Weinberg — discusses the Planck time in The First Three Minutes. Alan Guth — references the Planck scale when explaining inflation. Roger Penrose — discusses Planck‑scale physics in multiple books. Sean Carroll — talks about the Planck era in From Eternity to Here. Alexander Vilenkin — references the Planck boundary in cosmology. Lawrence Krauss — mentions the Planck time in A Universe from Nothing. Brian Greene — discusses Planck‑scale limits in The Elegant Universe. Paul Davies — talks about Planck‑scale physics in several books. William Lane Craig — uses the Planck time as the earliest definable physical moment.

In the Bible, ‘the beginning’ means the first moment of ordered existence—the focal point where God brings reality into balance. The universe expands like a cone from that single origin, and any point can be treated as the center because everything was united at the beginning. The ratio of time to expansion stays constant at 1.98, no matter where you measure from. Planck time simply marks the first moment where the laws of physics can operate. Before the Planck moment, physics does not apply; after it, everything on the first day fits inside that first Planck unit. So the beginning is the balance point of creation, and Planck is the first instant where creation becomes describable.”

Firstlightdawn · 2026-01-23T14:58:42-0600

The Barbarian said:
So just man's interpretation? Nothing else?

The Holy Spirit of God works through us. That’s why so many people attend churches where the pastor only has an associate’s degree—because the Spirit of God is doing the work in him, not the traditions of men. I still remember a pastor who could explain every detail of the temple and what each part means and represents. And if you look at Sefer Yetzirah, it teaches the same principle: the universe is something you can learn from because it is built on wisdom, structure, and pattern. Creation is formed through letters, numbers, and balanced opposites. The universe is not random. It is readable. It is a teaching tool.

Firstlightdawn · 2026-01-23T15:10:44-0600

FireDragon76 said:
Imagine bisecting a curve.

The universe is three‑dimensional, not two‑dimensional, and that is why real measurement always begins from a center. As a draftsman, you are constantly aware that the line on the paper is only a representation of something that does not actually exist in that form. It has width, distortion, and limits. It is a symbol, not the real boundary.

As a carpenter, you cut up to the line but never into it, because the line marks the edge of the real object. Even though the line itself is not perfectly straight, it represents a perfect boundary you must respect. In finish carpentry, such as building a kitchen, the tolerances are extremely tight. I once had a job making templates for cabinet doors, and every line had to be exact because the physical world does not forgive inaccuracy.

The Barbarian · 2026-01-23T15:17:53-0600

You mean the Kabbalah? The notion of numbers and letters, each with a specific structural meaning in creation?

I once heard a sermon by an Episcopal priest. She carefully laid out the way the temple had a series of stages from the outer court to the Holy of Holies where only the high priest could go once a year, and how Jesus broke through all of that, and gave man direct access to God. And then it became clear to me why the veil was torn top to bottom at the moment He said "it is finished."

The Barbarian · 2026-01-23T15:20:52-0600

FireDragon76 said:
I have a feeling the double slit experiment is very simple. Imagine bisecting a curve. You get a point. But the curve itself is continuous. That's all a particle is, what happens when you measure something that isn't completely discrete, with a finite tool.

The particle/wave duality is, I think, two views of an underlying reality that we can't comprehend. We only see some aspects of it.

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