my eclectic view of futurism

RandyPNW said:

Okay, you believe in Imminency Doctrine?--thanks for informing me of that. I don't take the verses the way you and my own denomination do. It explains a lot of things for me in our discussion. You are holding to a set of beliefs associated with Dispensationalism, regardless of whether you are one. Dispensationalism has controlled the agenda for a long time in the US and in other places. But certainly not everywhere.

I was trying to explain that just because we don't know the day and hour of Christ's Coming doesn't mean he can Return on any day or that we should expect he could Come on any day. As I said, I believe certain prophetic events must take place first before Christ Comes back. In fact, I believe Armageddon must take place first before Christ Comes back. But we have to be convinced in our own minds.

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If I understand you correctly, you don't believe that Jesus could come on any day, because you hold the post-trib (post-70th week) rapture timing view ?

RandyPNW said:

Well, in becoming Post-Trib I began to study the Pre-Trib position, and ultimately recognized that Imminency Doctrine was part of that view. And because Dispensationalism is so prevalent, Imminency Doctrine crept into the view of many non-Dispensationalists, as well.

I just found Imminency Doctrine to be incompatible with biblical eschatology because even though we were told we don't know the day and the hour of the Lord's Return, and even though we were told to always be ready, still we were told that certain things had to happen before the Lord's Return. I already listed the Exile of Israel, the proclamation of the Gospel to all nations, and the individual ministries we are currently engaged in, among other things.

It just made no sense to me, logically, to keep my eyes peeled on the heavens waiting for an event at an unknown time. We could be "expecting him to break through the clouds" for a thousand years in utter vanity!

So, obviously, waiting for Jesus and being ready for Jesus really consists of doing things that make us ready at all times, regardless of when we think he's coming back. You have to decide for yourself what makes sense to you.

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Would not the possibility that the resurrection/rapture could take place any day and hour - mean that the post-trib view is not a certainty ?

I just posted a new thread..... The "watch rapture view". Take a look at that thread.

Make the "watch rapture view" your prime rapture view. And the post-trib rapture view that you hold as your secondary rapture view.

RandyPNW said:

As I said, I think the "watch rapture view" is the Imminency view, and as such, incompatible with Post-Trib.

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No, the "watch rapture view" is not the imminent rapture view. The imminent rapture view is the certainty that rapture is just about to happen.

The imminent rapture view often involves projecting a near term date that the rapture will take place.

RandyPNW said:

Sorry, Doug, but you don't get to define the terms. Imminency (not immanency) Doctrine is defined as the belief that Christ's Return can take place at any moment. Here is one Pretribber's view:

"THE DOCTRINE OF IMMINENCY: IS IT BIBLICAL?
The primary thought expressed by imminency is that something important is likely to happen, and could do so without delay. While it may not be immediate nor necessarily soon, it is next on the program and may take place at any time"

https://www.pre-trib.org/pretribfiles/pdfs/Stanton-TheDoctrineOfImminency.pdf

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imminency is a noun. imminent is an adjective. call it the imminent rapture view instead of the imminency view.

You are the first person that I have heard mentioning an imminent rapture doctrine nor an imminency rapture doctrine.

The common terms for rapture timing are pre-trib, mid-trb, post-trib, pre-wrath.

RandyPNW said:

Petty! I wasn't trying to get you to enter into a spelling bee. I was trying to get you to acknowledge what Imminency or Imminent means. Imminency Doctrine is what I and others call it. You ignored the point...significantly. I'd like this to be a discussion with value. It's ending up something else.

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Imminency is a noun, not an adjective. Instead of saying Imminency Doctrine - say Doctrine of Imminnency.

Hi Randy

Thank you very much for your post and this whole thread, I have read it all through. I am coming into it a bit late but I wanted to pick up specifically on the Olivet discourse in Matt 24 as there have been some interesting points.

In verse 3 the disciples ask (I am using NIV): "When will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

The "when will this happen" relates to Jesus' statement about the temple being thrown down in AD70, I think we agree there, but there are 2 parts of the question, the second part is about his second coming, and I think Jesus is trying to answer both.

Verses 4-26 in Jesus' reply could be applied to either the end of the temple, or the second coming depending on interpretation. I can understand your view that they relate to the destruction of the temple. However from verse 27 onwards Jesus is talking about his second coming (mentioned specifically in verse 27, verse 30, verse 37, verse 39, verse 42 and verse 44). So the lesson of the fig tree in verses 32-33 is right in the middle of this section about the second coming.

I personally believe the fig tree reference is therefore part of the signs of the second coming and relates to the restoration of Israel/Jerusalem in 1948/1967. I think you are already familiar with the arguments for this. Do you have any more to say about why you think it still relates to the destruction of the temple, even though the passage before from verse 27 is about the second coming? Also, why would the fig tree budding be anything like the destruction of the temple? Surely the destruction of Jerusalem, Israel and the temple were presaged by the cursing of the fig tree in Matt 21, killing it off, rather than by the budding of the fig tree, which represents something new?

However one final thing I will say is that I think some people who do think the fig tree relates to Israel then misunderstand verse 34 "...this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened". Even Doug on this thread seems to have mentioned 70 years and set an end date, but all it says is that the generation will not pass away - ie. there will be people alive in 1948 (or 1967 if you think it refers to Jerusalem) who are still alive when Jesus returns. How old will they be then? 80? 100? 120? Older? It doesn't say, so we can't put an end date on when Jesus will return based on this passage.

Unfortunately I think the credibility of the fig tree = Israel view has been undermined by the date setting that has been done afterwards by people. I can understand the desire to see Jesus return soon but wishful thinking on the dates doesn't help the case.

BibleDaniel7 said:

Doug on this thread seems to have mentioned 70 years and set an end date,

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I would not call 2037 as an end date, but as "not later than" the end of 2037.

minus 7 years, and the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 as "not later than" the end of 2030.

Also since the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 will take place right before the 70th week begins, Gog/Magog event also "not later than" the end of 2030.

Those events could take place any time between right now and the not later than years. There is no way to predict exactly when.

BibleDaniel7 said:

all it says is that the generation will not pass away - ie. there will be people alive in 1948 (or 1967 if you think it refers to Jerusalem) who are still alive when Jesus returns. How old will they be then? 80? 100? 120? Older? It doesn't say, so we can't put an end date on when Jesus will return based on this passage.

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Very good - a scripturally correct understanding at last.
I am an example of someone born before 1948. It is quite possible for me to live for another 16 years from now.
I pray to be one of the Lords peoples who say- Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!