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Evolution conflict and division

Job 33:6

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a compartmentalized philosopher keeping each thing in its own box. Theologically the earth was made by God in 7 days but scientifically it took billions of years. Just leave them in their own compartments.
Again, the text doesn’t say how long the earth was formless before God began to create it. Unless that feature of the text is addressed, your claim rests on something the grammar of the passage does not establish.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

The Hebrew allows (and many translations reflect) this as a dependent clause. It's like saying:

1. In the beginning when I made a pizza, the pizza was formless and empty of pepperoni.

But that doesn't say anything about the age of the pizza or how long the pizza was formless before I began to make it.
 
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Job 33:6

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:p sometimes I just have to put things in basic American language. Genesis can be difficult to read, but if it's about pizza, I would hope that the English would come easy.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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:p sometimes I just have to put things in basic American language. Genesis can be difficult to read, but if it's about pizza, I would hope that the English would come easy.

And you do a good job of it, too. :cool: .... but now, if you'll excuse me, you've made me hungry.
 
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FaithT

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This, in no way prohibits God from creating a world in which he creates new things by using nature (such as living things or soil) to do so. In fact, God says that He does this, in Genesis 1. I believe Him.
i haven’t been following along closely, but do you believe humans evolved or were created from soil?
 
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The Barbarian

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i haven’t been following along closely, but do you believe humans evolved or were created from soil?
The first humans (not our particular species) evolved from other hominins about 2 million years ago. This nicely sums up the outline of our physical origins:

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God
*
..."In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution."


Life, God says, was brought forth by the earth. Humans came along relatively recently, long after the first living things appeared.
 
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o_mlly

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The first humans (not our particular species) evolved from other hominins about 2 million years ago. This nicely sums up the outline of our physical origins:

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God
*
..."In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution."


Life, God says, was brought forth by the earth. Humans came along relatively recently, long after the first living things appeared.
You have left out the important preamble to this paragraph in the commissions report. "According to the widely accepted scientific accounts ...". Doing so misleads one to think the commission approves rather then merely reports.
 
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o_mlly

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Aquinas restricts secondary causes to act within their potencies, but he does not restrict potency to individual agents. Potency resides in matter and in the ordered system of causes under divine providence. God, as first cause, can arrange matter such that new forms are gradually actualized through secondary causes. Therefore macro-evolution is not excluded by Thomism unless one assumes the absence of divine governance, which Aquinas explicitly denies.

To say that God can “arrange on the side of the thing caused its potency to receive a particular actualization” means that God can endow matter with latent capacities which secondary causes may gradually actualize, without themselves being first causes or possessing the resulting form in act. Which is essentially theistic evolution in a nutshell (though I would agree would be contradictory toward atheistic evolution).
If you wish to believe that, let's say, amoebas possess the potency to evolve into men, then you are free to do so. But doing so puts evolution further into the realm of faith rather than science.

I prefer St. Augustine's admonition that to depart from a literal interpretation of the Bible, one must have strong reasons to do so. Else, the Bible can mean anything to anybody which is to mean nothing to no one. Darwin's "guess" (that's all it is) as to explaining macroevolution, and all the Darwinian's subsequent revisions, offer only inferred conclusions, and as truth claims are logically weak being only slightly stronger than mere opinion.
 
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The Barbarian

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You have left out the important preamble to this paragraph in the commissions report. "According to the widely accepted scientific accounts ...". Doing so misleads one to think the commission approves rather then merely reports.
Well, let's see what's in that which I did include...
"Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution."

"Virtually certain" sounds as though the Commission is pretty sure. Did you miss that?
 
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The Barbarian

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If you wish to believe that, let's say, amoebas possess the potency to evolve into men
Actually, amebas are too evolved in their own direction to be the ancestors of humans. Still, metazoans evolved from something.

Nature
nature reviews genetics
Published: 08 May 2017

The origin of Metazoa: a unicellular perspective

The first animals evolved from an unknown single-celled ancestor in the Precambrian period. Recently, the identification and characterization of the genomic and cellular traits of the protists most closely related to animals have shed light on the origin of animals. Comparisons of animals with these unicellular relatives allow us to reconstruct the first evolutionary steps towards animal multicellularity. Here, we review the results of these investigations and discuss their implications for understanding the earliest stages of animal evolution, including the origin of metazoan genes and genome function.

If God made the first living things with a genetic system capable of evolving into all sorts of different things, would that be offensive to you?
 
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The Barbarian

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Darwin's "guess" (that's all it is)
That's a testable belief. Which of the four parts of Darwin's theory have been disproven? Which of them haven't been verified by subsequent evidence? I'd like to know what you think. Tell us about it.
 
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Job 33:6

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If you wish to believe that, let's say, amoebas possess the potency to evolve into men, then you are free to do so. But doing so puts evolution further into the realm of faith rather than science.

I prefer St. Augustine's admonition that to depart from a literal interpretation of the Bible, one must have strong reasons to do so. Else, the Bible can mean anything to anybody which is to mean nothing to no one. Darwin's "guess" (that's all it is) as to explaining macroevolution, and all the Darwinian's subsequent revisions, offer only inferred conclusions, and as truth claims are logically weak being only slightly stronger than mere opinion.
It seems like your parting from Thomistic thought here. Matter, as ordered by God and operating through many generations of secondary causes, can give rise to new forms over time.

No Thomistic position claims that an individual amoeba has the potency to become a human being. The potency in question resides in matter and in populations over time, operating through an ordered system of secondary causes under divine providence.
 
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FaithT

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The first humans (not our particular species) evolved from other hominins about 2 million years ago. This nicely sums up the outline of our physical origins:

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God
*
..."In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution."


Life, God says, was brought forth by the earth. Humans came along relatively recently, long after the first living things appeared.
Ok. I might’ve already told you this but I’m Catholic, grew up Catholic and was Lutheran LCMS for a few years. They believe man was made from dirt, woman made literally from Adam’s rib and the universe is only 6,000 years old.
 
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The Barbarian

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Ok. I might’ve already told you this but I’m Catholic, grew up Catholic and was Lutheran LCMS for a few years. They believe man was made from dirt, woman made literally from Adam’s rib and the universe is only 6,000 years old.
Yes, I think you told me. The Missouri Synod is, I believe, the only Lutheran group that denies evolution. Lutherans generally have no doctrinal position of evolution.
 
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FaithT

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Yes, I think you told me. The Missouri Synod is, I believe, the only Lutheran group that denies evolution. Lutherans generally have no doctrinal position of evolution.
Their beliefs about the age of the universe and evolution was something I couldn’t get past. I had LOTS of conversations with one of the pastors but he just couldn’t change my mind about that. There’s lots of nice people there, though.
 
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stevevw

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Created. God is not limited in any way. He doesn't design. He creates.
Yes thats a good way to put it. Within Gods creation is the ability to create itself.
The universe is biased toward certain outcomes. But chance works just as well for God as necessity.
Do you mean those chance occurrances will eventually lead to somewhere or something that is (necessary). Or without chance the (necessary) would mean nothing.
We aren't that smart. It still works. Maybe someday.
Actually we have already done it. We have overcome what nature would have allowed to take its natural course. We have redirected this and created ways to bypass what nature would have determined.
It's called "DNA." It is remarkably constant in replication, but from time to time, there are mutations. Most don't do much. Some are harmful. Some are useful. Darwin's great discovery was how that sorts out.
Yes but its not random. It seems research is show that mutations are really the result of a cellular wide interaction. As well as a feedback loop between environments, cells and tissues to the genome.

Nothing is really out there in isolation and not connected in some way that it has an influence on the outcomes. The most dominant is developmental bias which will only produce certain phenotype outcomes. Another is extra genetic where environmental stresses will influence particular adaptations that are well suited and then genetics cemented.
It's the limitation of science. Still, what it does, is more effective than anything else man can do.
The problem is the limitation in excluding the subject then becomes the obstacle to resists further science.
There is agency. Natural selection, for example.
Agencys would be classed as artificial selection or unnatural selection, or My selection lol. Whatever it is that the subject is selecting intelligently or experientially as the way in which they will determine their course in this world.

The most obvious is culture itself. A positive and life enhancing culture or a destructive one.
But no teleology. Science is about "how", not "why." It's open to teleology. Which is why people like Michael Denton can do biochemistry, even if he is an IDer.
I agree, science itself cannot be teleological. Its just a description of "how". But that does not mean that in reality teleology is not all over how life has evolved.

In fact even evolutionary scientists naturally kept referring to evolution in teleological language that they had to come up with a new definition of teleonomy. So as to seperate out that any appearence of purpose or design was programmed rather than created for a purpose of life.

This is where Dawkins gets his famous quote that evolution by NS give the "appearence of design" and not actual designed by a creator.
 
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Mercy Shown

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Again, the text doesn’t say how long the earth was formless before God began to create it. Unless that feature of the text is addressed, your claim rests on something the grammar of the passage does not establish.
We were never addressing the rock, we were addressing the life on the rock.
Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

The Hebrew allows (and many translations reflect) this as a dependent clause. It's like saying:

1. In the beginning when I made a pizza, the pizza was formless and empty of pepperoni.

But that doesn't say anything about the age of the pizza or how long the pizza was formless before I began to make it.
The 7 days of creation covers the life on the rock.
 
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Mercy Shown

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.... as I was pondering over some of the differences of thought we each have in this thread, I thought I'd take a moment and ask you if you've ever read or heard discussed on a podcast Rhyne R. Putman's book, When Doctrine Divides the People of God: An Evangelical Approach to Theological Diversity. Crossway, 2020?

I'm just asking because I'm currently reading it.
I read it a year ago. But I don't see how it is germane to this thread. I don't see any of us as being divided by this as Christians. None of this is salvific it is all about the incoherence of theistic evolution and NOT that theistic evolutionists or 7 day creationists or IDers cannot be good faithful followers of Christ. They certainly can.
 
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Mercy Shown

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And you know "how" each person thinks, "how"?
Right. The bible is downstream from their thinking.
Yes, they are compartmentalized for solid analytic reasons; the parsimony of the categories involved demand as such.
Only in one's mind.
But if someone wants to gripe that all I'm doing is Jerry-rigging my own God-of-the-Gaps approach to reading the Bible, so be it. I don't care.
Why do you take this personally? It is just a philosophic discussion about theistic evolution.
I know that's not what I'm doing, but it's not my responsibility to spell out all I know for every other person on the planet.

Not really. The so-called postmodern 'reader response' approach isn't very intellectual or academic, actually. No one should be methodologically attempting to handle, read, and evaluate disparate, ancient, foreign, mainly Hebrew and Jewish literature (or any literature, really) by way of a personal heuristic. But since we live in the all encompassing domain of the free, then free people tend all too often "to do what is right in their own eyes." It's kind of sad, I know, but for myself, I prefer digging with an academic spade until I hit some reality, even if I don't like what I might find.
Who determines if you have hit reality?
 
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Job 33:6

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We were never addressing the rock, we were addressing the life on the rock.

The 7 days of creation covers the life on the rock.
Not according to what you previously said:

“Theologically the earth was made by God in 7 days but scientifically it took billions of years.”

That claim goes beyond what the text itself states. As others have noted, the same issue applies to the creation of life: Scripture does not describe material mechanisms or timeframes, only the ordering and emergence of life within an already-present world.

Genesis 1:24 states that the earth “brought forth” living creatures. As with the description of the earth earlier in the chapter, this language does not specify duration or material origins.

To say something is “brought forth” is not to say it was created ex nihilo. It describes emergence within an ordered system, not manufacture out of nothing. If a store clerk is asked to “bring forth” eggs, no one assumes the eggs were created out of thin air.

This pattern is consistent throughout Genesis 1. Humanity is “made” in the image of God (Gen 1:26), which describes vocation and status, not material origin. Dry land “appears” when waters are gathered (Gen 1:9–10), presupposing the land’s existence. The heavenly lights are “made” to govern/rule functions over day and night (Gen 1:16–18), with emphasis on their role rather than their material coming-into-being.

Genesis consistently describes ordering, assignment, and function. Reading it as a concordant account of material origins, whether of the earth or of life, imports assumptions the text itself does not supply.

As an alternative interpretation, consider the language of forming a football team. I could say that in seven hours I “created” a team—by assigning roles and functions to people who already existed. I might say, “let the field bring forth my linebackers,” or “I made this person the quarterback,” without implying anyone was created out of nothing.

Genesis uses similar language. Naming, assigning roles, and bringing forth do not inherently describe ex nihilo creation. Rather, the text can coherently be read as God taking what already exists, like the formless earth, and ordering it into something more than it previously was.

If I make a quarterback in my image, or maybe I make a painting in my image. Or maybe I could make a sculpture in my image. Or if I make someone to rule something, I'm going to make the zookeeper to rule over the zoo.

I'm not necessarily saying that I am creating a zookeeper ex nihilo out of nothing to rule over the zoo. I would simply be saying that I'm going to take someone and I'm going to do something with them.
 
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Job 33:6

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We were never addressing the rock, we were addressing the life on the rock.

The 7 days of creation covers the life on the rock.
And here is a good lecture on the alternative that I just described in my last post:
 
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