Ethics on lies and how to tell other Christians that they are supporting liars.

joechristianwarrior said:

Even Jesus seemed to at least mislead in one instance in the Gospels, where He said to his brothers that He wasn't going up to a feast, even though He later did.

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Sorry, but I don't believe that Jesus was trying to mislead or was lying in any way.
John doesn't tell us why Jesus decided to go to the feast anyway - i.e. he doesn't say, "then Jesus changed his mind", or "then Jesus, having spent further time in prayer, thought he would go after all." He only says that Jesus went, "not publicly, but in secret."

Strong in Him said:

Sorry, but I don't believe that Jesus was trying to mislead or was lying in any way.
John doesn't tell us why Jesus decided to go to the feast anyway - i.e. he doesn't say, "then Jesus changed his mind", or "then Jesus, having spent further time in prayer, thought he would go after all." He only says that Jesus went, "not publicly, but in secret."

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I agree. I've spent considerable time questioning this myself and in prayer. He said in His discussion with His brothers that it isn't His time yet, and it seems to me He meant not His time to go to the feast yet. In the NKJV and KJV He says "I go not up yet unto this feast." Meaning, I'm not going right now, not that He wasn't going at all.

A few verses later in 19 Christ states they were going around trying to kill Him, and they accused Him of having a devil, or a demon and imply they weren't trying to kill Him. This seems to me to be likely a good reason for not going up "yet." This is especially clear because verse 13 of John chapter 7 states that "no one spoke openly of Him for fear of the Jews." The people were the line drawn in the sand those who wished to kill Christ wouldn't cross because the people considered Christ a prophet (Matthew 21:46) and they didn't want to lose credit with the people as leaders or be seen doing anything that could be considered a sin. So it seems Christ stayed back and waited until the time was right to avoid creating chaos and until there were plenty of witnesses to keep those wishing to kill Him in check publicly.

Also, Christ commends Nathanael for being an Israelite with "no deceit" in Him in John 1:47. It wouldn't be fitting to praise a follower for having no guile, or deceit, and then have it in Himself.

What can we do about lies? Sometimes, nothing.

Jesus said (in Matt. 5:10-12),
"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

Sabertooth said:

What can we do about lies? Sometimes, nothing.

Jesus said (in Matt. 5:10-12),
"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

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So we should be rejoicing and happy when people tell falsehoods against us according to Christ, but..

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

I do think there is a place, when we can do something about it, to expose lies and bring truth to people who need it.

Zceptre said:

I do think there is a place, when we can do something about it, to expose lies and bring truth to people who need it.

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Whether it is someone outside of the realm of Christianity, or those within that mislead, is it not simplest to state Jesus' truth using His words, and leave it at that? There is no sense fighting doctrines or traditions of the blind. Plant a seed and those God means to listen shall grow, seeking while avoiding human regulation.

timothyu said:

Whether it is someone outside of the realm of Christianity, or those within that mislead, is it not simplest to state Jesus' truth using His words, and leave it at that? There is no sense fighting doctrines or traditions of the blind Plant a seed and those God means to listen shall grow.

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I think often that this is exactly what we should do, but to say that is all that we should ever do I don't believe is fully God's heart. Christ Himself didn't just tell us the truth, but died in our place to save us. He made a sacrifice and stood against evil at the cost of His life. We don't always have to give up our life to help others being mislead, but it at times might require some kind of sacrifice depending on the situation. According to the love God places in our heart and His leading we should intervene on behalf of those who are weak and being deceived.

Psalm 82:3-4 (NKJV)
Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 (NKJV)
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all.

Romans 15:1 (NKJV)
We then who are strong ought to bear with the scruples of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

Romans 15:1 (BSB)
We who are strong ought to bear with the shortcomings of the weak and not to please ourselves.


Everything we are given is a gift, including life and the truth. If we have been given discernment by God to recognize lies that others are believing, and if we see they need and are open to being helped we should enlighten them. Sometimes calling lies out directly is required, while other times it would only hinder those being deceived and make your stance seem unreasonable. God creates us all for different purposes, and some people are more inclined to challenge or confront lies, while others are better equipped to gently lead deceived people by the hand into the light of truth.

Every situation is a different scenario and only with Holy Spirit's guidance do I think we can discern what is needed in the more complex cases. To only tell the truth and let anyone who is weak be unwittingly mislead into darkness does not seem what Christ done. He told people when they were wrong. The only thing required for evil to prevail is for good men to sit back and do nothing to intervene on behalf of others.

Whatever we can do, we should do, according to God's guidance. This is a war and it is a real one and it is for keeps. Eternal keeps.

Zceptre said:

We don't always have to give up our life to help others being mislead, but it at times might require some kind of sacrifice depending on the situation.

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He covered that in the 2 commandments. Be servants to God and to each other. Help in times of need physically. We have no right to do other than sow seeds. It is up to God and whomever how they will grow. This removes the blindness of others infiltrating (meddling). At some point people will compare their growth to others, but this does not mean they should follow anything but the Will of God portrayed in His scripture. Look at how Jesus' only Gospel of the Kingdom got left in the dust as man took over and tried to make it fit into that which it opposed. If one is firm in the Kingdom, they can assess info to see if it corresponds. I think the most we can do is offer alternate choice if we see others being misled and leave it to them to decide. That's what God did..

timothyu said:

He covered that in the 2 commandments. Be servants to God and to each other. Help in times of need physically. We have no right to do other than sow seeds. It is up to God and whomever how they will grow. This removes the blindness of others infiltrating. At some point people will compare their growth to others, but this does not mean they should follow anything but the Will of God portrayed in His scripture. Look at how Jesus' only Gospel of the Kingdom got left in the dust as man took over and tried to make it fit into that which it opposed. I think the most we can do is offer alternate choice if we see others being misled and leave it to them to decide. That's what God did..

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I agree in part, but like I said not completely. Christ at times confronted those telling lies or who would not believe the truth and exposed them just like Ephesians 5:11 says to do. We should also always speak with love and respect and seek peace even when addressing falsehoods.

John 8:39-47
39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

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Christ didn't turn around to the other people listening in on the conversation and tell them what to believe, but directly confronted those who were dishonoring Him and the truth of who He is.

If we are to follow Christ and He is the example, this is part of the example. He carried His cross and He said we should carry ours. Avoiding any kind of conflict and never confronting lies with the truth leaves weaker more vulnerable people without any help and the only reason they don't have help will be for the sake of our own comfort in not having to face evil and the lies it perpetrates.

I'm not saying anyone should go around picking fights and confronting every lie they find. We should follow God's guidance and should not be afraid to stand up for what is true even if it is not comfortable. Seeking our own comfort leaves the weak vulnerable for the sake of our own safety. Carrying our cross doesn't mean seeking our own safety.

This is how we overcome according to God:

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.


The part most people don't quote, is the last part. Not putting ourselves first. If someone is seeking to spare themselves any discomfort in fighting evil or lies, they will never stand up to anything to help those being oppressed by the wicked.

Zceptre said:

The part most people don't quote, is the last part. Not putting ourselves first. If someone is seeking to spare themselves any discomfort in fighting evil or lies, they will never stand up to anything to help those being oppressed by the wicked.

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Like I said, we speak His truth to show the contrast. They've been given a choice and we must trust in God (not us) to use it as He will.

Strong in Him said:

Is a white lie so "innocent"? Is there such a thing as a "good lie"?
How many "good lies" can people get away with before they cross the line, or become known as liars?

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I guess such lies as told by Corrie Ten Boom in order to protect the Jews her family hid at home? Or the lie told by Rahab to protect the spies she hid at her house? For the latter case Rahab was even praised in Hebrew 11 for her faith.
I think such are difficult situations where we shouldn't presume to do better if we would be in. OTOH the sister of Corrie endeavored not to lie into any circonstances.

But such “innocent” lies I very rarely heard: the most instances I heard lies from Christians was because they didn't want to admit a wrong doing, and they even persevere in their lies to the result of causing divisions among Christians!

Jonnas said:

I guess such lies as told by Corrie Ten Boom in order to protect the Jews her family hid at home? Or the lie told by Rahab to protect the spies she hid at her house? For the latter case Rahab was even praised in Hebrew 11 for her faith.
I think such are difficult situations where we shouldn't presume to do better if we would be in. OTOH the sister of Corrie endeavored not to lie into any circonstances.

But such “innocent” lies I very rarely heard: the most instances I heard lies from Christians was because they didn't want to admit a wrong doing, and they even persevere in their lies to the result of causing divisions among Christians!

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Thanks.
Yeah, I was thinking of Rahab and the spies. I know she was commended for her faith, but she did still tell a lie.
I haven't studied the passage for a while, though, so I may be missing something.

I had forgotten about Corrie ten Boom - an amazing lady.

joechristianwarrior said:

Even Jesus seemed to at least mislead in one instance in the Gospels, where He said to his brothers that He wasn't going up to a feast, even though He later did.

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I think you meant John 7:8?

The vast majority of manuscripts have the “yet” in the sentence, only a few haven't: “You go up to this feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, for My time has not yet fully come.”

Not all people agree if the “yet” has to be included in the verse, but as I read John 7:8: Not, Not Yet, or Nothing?, I found the debate to be very speculative! See also: https://x.com/JoeShakour/status/1852464046739738724.

Therefore we can't conclude that Jesus lied to his brothers, because there is no real evidence that the “yet” should not be in the verse (only speculative evidences).

Strong in Him said:

Yeah, I was thinking of Rahab and the spies. I know she was commended for her faith, but she did still tell a lie.

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I read once someone saying that even our best actions are tainted with sin. I think that he was right. Maybe a giant of faith such as the apostle Paul would have been able not to lie in the situation of Rahab, but we have to remember that she didn't have faith since a very long time and that she had a low morality in her old life.
But by faith, “she had received the spies with peace” (Heb 11:31b); she could have seen them as enemies that are a great threat to her people and betray them to her king, but she didn't. She acted according to her faith, and even if her actions were tainted with sin, God saw and honored her faith. If we act by faith, we also shouldn't presume that our actions were without sins, however we can trust God that He will honor our faith, even if our actions were not perfect.

Jonnas said:

I read once someone saying that even our best actions are tainted with sin. I think that he was right. Maybe a giant of faith such as the apostle Paul would have been able not to lie in the situation of Rahab, but we have to remember that she didn't have faith since a very long time and that she had a low morality in her old life.

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Oh, I wasn't criticising her - at least, I didn't mean it to come across that way.
I was just pondering on her telling a lie, even though it was for the greater good - just like the ten Boom family.

If either had told the truth, would God have stepped in to save the people involved anyway?

Strong in Him said:

If either had told the truth, would God have stepped in to save the people involved anyway?

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Nothing is impossible for God, so he could have done that. But whether He would have done that? I believe that in such a case, He would have given Rahab such a faith, that she could say the truth and expect that God would prevent the king to do any harm.

If I remembered well, concerning Betty, the sister of Corrie Teen Boon who didn't want to lie, she didn't came to such a situation where she was forced to betray her family and the hidden Jews. So God apparently honored the endeavor of Betty not to tell any lie.

Not anyone has the same level of faith. Maybe Betty had a greater faith than Rahab? But any faith we have, God will honor!