The "watch rapture view"

Douggg · Sunday at 7:06 PM

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic (as to insisting pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib timing). The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We all should be able to adopt the "watch rapture view".

RandyPNW · Sunday at 7:53 PM

Douggg said:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic (as to insisting pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib timing). The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We all should be able to adopt the "watch rapture view".

I don't think "watching" refers to an Imminent expectation. It refers to a constant belief that Christ will come in the future--certainly not "any day." We are not to be expecting that "he could come day," as we're often told. Rather, we're simply told to "watch" as if the simple expectation that he will come one day will cause us to modify our behavior every day.

It's sort of metaphorical, like a sentry keeping watch for an imminent invasion. If you don't "keep watch," your city may be overrun before an adequate defense can be put up, the gates locked, etc. In this case, if we don't maintain belief that the Kingdom is coming, we may let down our guard and fall back into pagan practices.

In reality, we're told that Israel would go into exile after 70 AD, indicating that the Kingdom was still a long ways off when Jesus told his disciples to "watch" for his Kingdom. So, it has nothing to do with imminent expectation, in my view, but only refers to a metaphorical example of maintaining a continuous prepartion for an event, whether it is imminent or far off.

In this case, Christ was telling his disciples to maintain preparation for a far off event. Hence, "watching" was not intended to be an imminent expectation. My view only...

Douggg · Sunday at 10:29 PM

RandyPNW said:
I don't think "watching" refers to an Imminent expectation

The watch rapture view is not the imminent rapture view.

The imminent rapture view involves predicting the rapture will happen by a certain near date. Like that of Pastor Joshua Mhakela for claiming Jesus appeared to him in a vision, predicting the Rapture would occur on September 23-24, 2025, coinciding with the Jewish Feast of Trumpets. There were a lot of You Tube videos featuring him and his prediction.

Ivan Hlavanda · Sunday at 11:14 PM

Douggg said:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Sadly, the number of Christians that think they know the date, is increasing

RandyPNW · Monday at 12:16 AM

Douggg said:
The watch rapture view is not the immanent rapture view.

The immanent rapture view involves predicting the rapture will happen by a certain near date. Like that of Pastor Joshua Mhakela for claiming Jesus appeared to him in a vision, predicting the Rapture would occur on September 23-24, 2025, coinciding with the Jewish Feast of Trumpets. There were a lot of You Tube videos featuring him and his prediction.

You've got to stop calling it "immanency." Immanence means something different from Imminence. Not a big deal, but it's necessary to point this out because it can create confusion for others. Actually, it creates confusion for me because I'm not sure which you're speaking of?

Pretribbers do see the "watch rapture" view as a confirmation of Imminency Expectation. Dwight Pentecost apparently thought the Early Church had imminent expectation perhaps due to this kind of misunderstanding. It was assumed that because the Early Church believed the Kingdom to be near, and that they should watch for it they had to be Imminency Advocates.

But I don't believe they were because they were taught by Jesus that a long age of Jewish Diaspora had to precede his Coming, along with the rise of Antichrist. Christ's Coming would coincide with Antichrist's destruction and with the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth.

Thinking we should watch for the event, and expect it to be relatively near, does not have to mean "imminent expectation." Rather, it is looking at history in a larger sense, viewing the Kingdom as near only because the King of that Kingdom has already come once.

Next time he is coming to establish his Kingdom. Therefore, it is the next big prophetic event, and as such, it is relatively near--even if it has taken 2000 years!

We watch for it not because we actually expect it might come in the next few years, but only because watching for him is synonymous with believing we need a constant reminder to be living for his coming Kingdom. And it means there are pretenders and deceivers to watch out for.

Imminency Doctrine sometimes leads to date-setting, but not necessarily so. Imminency Doctrine therefore is not defined as "Date Setting."

Douggg · Monday at 2:09 AM

RandyPNW said:
Pretribbers do see the "watch rapture" view as a confirmation of Imminency Expectation.

Pretribbers see the rapture as taking place sometime before the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins. The term "pre-trib", "pre-tribulation" is a misnomer because all of the 70th week is not tribulation. For most of the first half, the world will be saying "peace and safety" thinking it has entered the messianic age. (But it will be a false messianic age of thinking that the Antichrist is the messiah.)

I created the term "watch rapture view". It is not a term originating with Pretribbers.

Douggg · Monday at 2:14 AM

RandyPNW said:
You've got to stop calling it "immanency." Immanence means something different from Imminence.

I went back edited all my posts to "imminent" view. No longer is "immanency" view in any of my posts.

Likewise, you have to also stop with imminency view. "imminency"is a noun. "imminent" is an adjective... meaning about to happen.

RandyPNW · Monday at 7:51 AM

Douggg said:
I went back edited all my posts to "imminent" view. No longer is "immanency" view in any of my posts.

Likewise, you have to also stop with imminency view. "imminency"is a noun. "imminent" is an adjective... meaning about to happen.

Imminent and Immanent are very different. Arguing over grammar was not and is not my concern. Regardless, I disagree with you.

RandyPNW · Monday at 8:00 AM

Douggg said:
Pretribbers see the rapture as taking place sometime before the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins. The term "pre-trib", "pre-tribulation" is a misnomer because all of the 70th week is not tribulation. For most of the first half, the world will be saying "peace and safety" thinking it has entered the messianic age. (But it will be a false messianic age of thinking that the Antichrist is the messiah.)

I created the term "watch rapture view". It is not a term originating with Pretribbers.

I don't care--calling it the "watch rapture" view is perfectly legitimate in expressing the argument you wished to make. I'm not arguing about where the term "watch rapture" originated. I'm arguing about the connection, historically, between Pretribism and Imminency Doctrine.

It is arguable what the "70th Week" even consists of. Most Pretribbers would view the 70th Week as a 7 year period. I'm not a Pretribber but I think the 70th, or last, Week was fulfilled in the middle of that 7 year period. Jesus was cut off in the middle of the 70th Week.

You and others define "tribulation" in the final "Week" of this age differently than how Jesus defined the "great tribulation" in his Olivet Discourse. What we all might agree on is that the Antichrist reigns and persecutes Christians for 3.5 years, since that is what Dan 7 teaches.

Calling it "tribulation" is fine by me, although I don't believe God takes 3.5 years to punish the Antichrist. I think the Antichrist punishes the saints throughout that period. It will certainly be "tribulation" for the saints being "punished" by Antichrist. But "tribulation" is something often associated with God's punishment of the ungodly. And as I said, it won't take God a full 7 years to punish the Antichrist!

Separating these things by different beliefs is a bit tedious. But I find it to be necessary.

d taylor · Monday at 8:10 AM

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“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

So to stand before the Son of Man a believer must be taken from the earth. Because Jesus at this point will have not physically returned back to earth.

That day is another way of saying the day of The Lord. So believes are called to watch and be ready to escape the day of The Lord.

RandyPNW · Monday at 8:21 AM

d taylor said:
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“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

So to stand before the Son of Man a believer must be taken from the earth. Because Jesus at this point will have not physically returned back to earth.

That day is another way of saying the day of The Lord. So believes are called to watch and be ready to escape the day of The Lord.

To "stand before the Son of Man" could mean to enter into eternal fellowship with him in the Resurrection. If one dies, he will either enter into fellowship with Christ in eternity or not.

JulieB67 · Monday at 8:35 AM

We are to watch for the signs Christ laid out. Once those happen in someone's lifetime than they can lift up their heads and know it's near.

The problem is many people still view the rapture and the day of the Lord as two separate events. The day of the Lord is coming as as a thief in the night. Christ states we are to watch so that the thief/day doesn't over take us. Paul being of course a second witness to that.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and
would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

d taylor · Monday at 8:50 AM

RandyPNW said:
To "stand before the Son of Man" could mean to enter into eternal fellowship with him in the Resurrection. If one dies, he will either enter into fellowship with Christ in eternity or not.

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It is a reference to the bema seat judgmnet of believers for the gain or loss of rewards. Which happens for church age believers during the tribulation. While they are with Jesus in the clouds as the tribulation plays out.

d taylor · Monday at 8:51 AM

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Do We Escape the Great Tribulation by Works? Also: How Much Bible Do We Need to Read Daily to Benefit? – Grace Evangelical Society

RandyPNW · Monday at 8:51 AM

JulieB67 said:
We are to watch for the signs Christ laid out. Once those happen in someone's lifetime than they can lift up their heads and know it's near.

The problem is many people still view the rapture and the day of the Lord as two separate events. The day of the Lord is coming as as a thief in the night. Christ states we are to watch so that the thief/day doesn't over take us. Paul being of course a second witness to that.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and
would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Right, we are watching for the coming Kingdom, at which time both Christ comes and the Church is raptured and glorified. We are to look forward to our new life in Christ sos that we live that new life right now already in preparation for it.

As to "watching for signs," one of the signs Jesus gave his disciples was the sign of his Coming itself, which was not designed to be prepared for by any other method than by living a righteous life. He is coming from heaven at which point it is too late to prepare for that event.

So signs are not designed to avoid moral preparation and simply get your house in order and otherwise escape all physical inconvenience. The signs Jesus gave his disciples in the Olivet Discourse largely concerned his own generation and their need to immediately repent and not be part of the judgment coming upon Israel in 70 AD.

The "birth pain" signs were all anticipatory of God's imminent judgment against that corrupt society. They were all confirming that God was bringing judgment upon Israel for a reason, indicated by their persecution of Jewish believers, along with other immoral behaviors.

RandyPNW · Monday at 8:53 AM

d taylor said:
It is a reference to the bema seat judgmnet of believers for the gain or loss of rewards. Which happens for church age believers during the tribulation. While they are with Jesus in the clouds as the tribulation plays out.

You are making dogmatic statements without basis. I don't therefore take them seriously.

There is no indication, as far as I know, that rewards happen for believers "during the tribulation." Who do you think suffer the tribulation, Antichrist or believers?

d taylor · Monday at 9:01 AM

RandyPNW said:
You are making dogmatic statements without basis. I don't therefore take them seriously.

There is no indication, as far as I know, that rewards happen for believers "during the tribulation." Who do you think suffer the tribulation, Antichrist or believers?

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Who is in the tribulation at the start only unbelievers, but as time passes people come to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.
But during the tribulation unbelievers will suffer God's wrath and believers will be killed for being a child of God or a believer may suffer God's judgment and lose their life for being an unfaithful believer during this time.

RandyPNW · Monday at 9:32 AM

d taylor said:
Who is in the tribulation at the start only unbelievers, but as time passes people come to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

"As time passes?"

It has taken the Church nearly 2000 years for the Gospel to bring Christianity to nations throughout the earth and to establish them as either Christian or tolerant of Christianity. How many Christians do you think will come to Christ during the "Tribulation," over a "7 year Period" as you claim, when there are no Christians to witness to them, no mature Christians to help with the teaching, and only persecution to prevent them from becoming Christian?

d taylor said:
But during the tribulation unbelievers will suffer God's wrath and believers will be killed for being a child of God or a believer may suffer God's judgment and lose their life for being an unfaithful believer during this time.

So, you are defining the "tribulation" both as God's punishment upon the wicked and the persecution of Christians by the Antichrist? It sounds like you're splitting the definition of "the tribulation" in two?

Where are you getting your "biblical definition" if this particular "tribulation?" I'm not talking about utilizing extraneous uses of the term "tribulation," but only about this particular "tribulation" which you assign to the Reign of Antichrist?

Where is the Reign of Antichrist called a "tribulation" specifically as a punishment for Antichrist? Where is the term "tribulation" being used specifically as a term for persecution of the saints?

Rev 7.14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This vision seems to be a prolepsis (indicating a vision of the future) representing the survival of Christians who emerge out of a troubled time, often associated with Antichristian persecution. It doesn't sound like a time of punishment for Antichrist.

Antichrist appears to be punished, in the Revelation, largely at the time Christ returns, at the end of Antichrist's reign. Do you agree or disagree? And do you have verses that utilize the word "tribulation" to express this?

d taylor · Monday at 10:20 AM

RandyPNW said:
"As time passes?"

It has taken the Church nearly 2000 years for the Gospel to bring Christianity to nations throughout the earth and to establish them as either Christian or tolerant of Christianity. How many Christians do you think will come to Christ during the "Tribulation," over a "7 year Period" as you claim, when there are no Christians to witness to them, no mature Christians to help with the teaching, and only persecution to prevent them from becoming Christian?

So, you are defining the "tribulation" both as God's punishment upon the wicked and the persecution of Christians by the Antichrist? It sounds like you're splitting the definition of "the tribulation" in two?

Where are you getting your "biblical definition" if this particular "tribulation?" I'm not talking about utilizing extraneous uses of the term "tribulation," but only about this particular "tribulation" which you assign to the Reign of Antichrist?

Where is the Reign of Antichrist called a "tribulation" specifically as a punishment for Antichrist? Where is the term "tribulation" being used specifically as a term for persecution of the saints?

Rev 7.14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This vision seems to be a prolepsis (indicating a vision of the future) representing the survival of Christians who emerge out of a troubled time, often associated with Antichristian persecution. It doesn't sound like a time of punishment for Antichrist.

Antichrist appears to be punished, in the Revelation, largely at the time Christ returns, at the end of Antichrist's reign. Do you agree or disagree? And do you have verses that utilize the word "tribulation" to express this?

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First you need to get your understanding of the people of the tribulation correct. The antichrist is not the main person. The antichrist is not the one who sets himself up in the temple of God claiming to be God.

The antichrist (beast from the land) brings worship to the beast from the sea (Paul's man of sin). It is the beast from the sea that makes war against believers.
It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Douggg · Monday at 12:10 PM

d taylor said:
The antichrist (beast from the land) brings worship to the beast from the sea (Paul's man of sin). It is the beast from the sea that makes war against believers.

little horn > prince that shall come > Antichrist > revealed man of sin > beast-king

the beast from the sea:
the kingdom of the beast-king
the mortally wounded but healed head is the beast-king

the beast from the earth:
the false prophet

In Revelation 19:20, the beast-king and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

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The "watch rapture view"

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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