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Inside the Atonement: What Christ Actually Did on the Cross
- Thread starter Arial-byGrace
- Start date
Do you have biblical proof of that? IOW can you support every point and make it flow together and reach the same conclusion? Here are the points.
- He is knocking on our door and we must respond.
- The response is aided by grace.
- We can override grace.
- God covets a "yes" answer. (In order to support that one, you will need to show that God ever covets anything.)
- That God counts our "yes" as justice.
- That unbelief in injustice.
Make sure you don't present a picture of God that contradicts anything he reveals about himself.
Make sure you don't present an inaccurate picture of unregenerate man in relation to God.
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yes just as was the case for Moses and Elijah in their life and also as they stood in glory with Christ in Matt 17 before the cross had even happened
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Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock, IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door, I will come in"
The Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16
Jesus Christ "Draws all mankind to Himself" John 12:32
We can refuse to answer the door.
John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"
Ezek 18 "Oh WHY will you die? Turn to me and LIVE"
Matt 23 "Jerusalem , how I WANTED to spare your children but you would not"
Our yes is not justice, but God's solution to the sin problem is both just and merciful (See Rom 3)
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God was tortured
God suffered insult
God "is OWED" for all the suffering He endured, and He is never paid back for it.
Yet God ransomed/redeemed us from our sins.
He paid the debt we owed.
Our debt was owed to God. Then God was tortured for the payment His own law demands... that sort of "payment" is not actually giving anything good to God, it is God suffering in the extreme
Its like your banker taking his own personal funds and paying off your home loan and then handing you the title. There is no sense in which you can clam that you don't owe him anything.
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Eternal life is caused, it is given. Present the scriptures that say
- Where something besides faith or perfect righteousness give eternal life.
- Sin after coming to faith can still cause (death is not earned) death.
But let me say this in connection to number 2. Christians still die and it is because of sin but that is not the same thing as losing eternal life. The eternal life is because the grave cannot really kill the believer. When they die, they go to be with the Lord and at his return those bodies will be resurrected, and we will be changed (1 Cor 15). At the cross, death lost its power over us and sin lost its power to condemn us.
There is no ticket to God. Jesus is the way and no one comes to the Father except through him. Some righteousness is not perfect righteousness and surely you do not consider yourself perfectly righteous. The actual increasing personal righteousness we have is fruit the Vine is producing. Man does not have an obligation---that would be law (a legal code as the Mosaic covenant had). Salvation is through faith, not law. Man has a responsibility to learn the imperatives of righteousness given in his word and submit to them. And every imperative given in the NT is either preceded by or followed by an indicative. We can do the imperatives, because of the indicative. And the indicatives are always who we are in Christ. What we already possess all that we need to learn to live up to our responsibilities, It is called growing in Christ. Sometimes we have to sit down in prayer and ask for the grace we need to obey. "Teach me your ways O Lord."
What is that?
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What do you mean by "authentic"? The righteousness is authentic but it isn't our righteousness, it is Christ's.
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I posted the OP and the series that followed on five points of the atonement, in hopes that it would help God's children grow in their understanding of the cross and the magnitude of what he did. It was with love and with hope that I offered it.
Sadly, no one responding did anything but deny almost every point. I am flummoxed and incredibly sad.
Flummoxed: completely unable to understand.
The OP was the gospel 101. It is basic traditional Christianity!
Sadly, no one responding did anything but deny almost every point. I am flummoxed and incredibly sad.
Flummoxed: completely unable to understand.
The OP was the gospel 101. It is basic traditional Christianity!
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God was tortured
God suffered insult
God "is OWED" for all the suffering He endured, and He is never paid back for it.
Yet God ransomed/redeemed us from our sins.
He paid the debt we owed.
Our debt was owed to God. Then God was tortured...
The result is as we see it in Ezek 18, Matt 18 and Rom 11... the examples of "forgiveness revoked" where someone who is fully forgiven (as in those three cases) experiences salvation lost, forgiveness revoked when they turn from God.
It is not a matter of God being fully paid then ignoring the payment. Rather God was fully tortured, then when the person turns away from God after having at first accepted salvation, God is fully justified in revoking that full and free forgiveness just as He describes it in those three chapters.
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The problem is not your five words in the OP. The problem is leaving Christ on the cross.
Heb 8:1 says "THE MAIN POINT is this we have a High Priest SEATED at the right hand of the Father.. in the sanctuary above"
He is our High Priest. Salvation is dynamic and interactive. He come boldly before the throne of grace
And God warns us that we need to "persevere" in Heb 10. We see the result of not persevering in Heb 6:2-10 and also in Rom 11, Matt 18 and Ezek 18. There is a growth process that Hebrews 5 tells us must take place but some reject it.
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The five words in the OP (which are not my words but God's words) are not a problem and they do not leave Christ on the cross. Those five words are attached to the actual work that Christ did on the cross, and it is that work that I am discussing. Why? Well, the OP states why. In a vast majority of the modern church, they are never investigated and as has been aptly demonstrated in the responses, a great many Christians or those who claim they are (I am not the judge of that) have no idea what they mean. And evidently it is the last thing they want to think about to make sure they understand it correctly. Certainly, there is no evidence of listening.
What it seems to have done instead of what I hoped for and intended (spiritual growth) it challenged their preferred view of God. So, efforts were focused on tearing it down.
Hebrews 8
English Standard Version
Jesus, High Priest of a Better Covenant
8 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent[a] that the Lord set up, not man.The writer of Hebrews did not say that was the main point of everything. He said it was the main point of what he had been saying. What had he been saying? Who was he writing to and under what circumstances, and for what purpose?
That is a whole different topic than that of the OP. If you want to discuss it, start a thread on it and tag me. I will happily discuss it there.
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@BobRyan
That statement has God paying himself for suffering he endured. It collapses substitution--which Scripture repeatedly presents as the meaning of Christ's death---into self-compensation It has God paying a debt before it existed and then treating his own suffering as the reason the debt exists. IOW, it makes God's suffering create the debt.
Scripture teaches the opposite: our sin creates the debt, and Christ pays it.
Debt arises from law-breaking, not from someone else's suffering (Rom 3:19;6:23). God is the offended party, not the debtor. Christ pays God for us, not God for God.
God is not owed because he suffered; he is owed because his law was violated.
The phrasing "God was tortured" and "God suffered insult," without qualification, also blurs Trinitarian distinctions and risks confusing the Father with the Son and the divine nature with the human nature.
If God pays God for God, no real substitution occurs. The sinner's liability disappears in theory rather than being borne by Christ. Grounding the atonement in suffering itself rather than penal justice ultimately eliminates substitutionary satisfaction altogether.
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God was tortured
God suffered insult
God "is OWED" for all the suffering He endured, and He is never paid back for it.
Yet God ransomed/redeemed us from our sins.
He paid the debt we owed.
In other words God is not "getting paid" at the cross , He is getting tortured.
attacking God does not lessen our guilt.
Even so, He is dying a substitutionary atoning sacrifice (see 1 John 2:2) for the sins we commit in our lives no matter that we did not live at the time of Christ's crucifixion.
He satisfies the second death penalty that He setup as the debt for sin.
At the cross we see God giving payment, making payment... not "getting paid"
But the form of the payment is not "god getting paid",,, it is God getting tortured.
And yes it is true , God pays the debt even before it exists in the case of all who are born after the cross.
The point is that we all sin, but we were not all physical doing evil 2000 years ago. Even so Christ paid our own debt of sin.
Christ is God, 100% God, fully human.
No matter that it is "one God in three persons" , the second person of the Godhead is still God
God suffered insult
God "is OWED" for all the suffering He endured, and He is never paid back for it.
Yet God ransomed/redeemed us from our sins.
He paid the debt we owed.
In other words God is not "getting paid" at the cross , He is getting tortured.
attacking God does not lessen our guilt.
Even so, He is dying a substitutionary atoning sacrifice (see 1 John 2:2) for the sins we commit in our lives no matter that we did not live at the time of Christ's crucifixion.
He satisfies the second death penalty that He setup as the debt for sin.
It only collapses the "God got paid" solution.
At the cross we see God giving payment, making payment... not "getting paid"
No . the reason the debt exists is that we covet, we dishonor parents, we ignore the Sabbath etc.
But the form of the payment is not "god getting paid",,, it is God getting tortured.
And yes it is true , God pays the debt even before it exists in the case of all who are born after the cross.
true
when you make someone else suffer, when you stab him , slice up his skin, crucify him... you incur debt. Humans were at the cross doing all that sort of thing to Him
The point is that we all sin, but we were not all physical doing evil 2000 years ago. Even so Christ paid our own debt of sin.
True. Both in our own sin and in Him getting tortured by humans.
Christ is God, 100% God, fully human.
No matter that it is "one God in three persons" , the second person of the Godhead is still God
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fhansen
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1. God’s been knocking on man’s door since Eden, where He first gave man the choice, to follow Him or not. And He’s not irrational; He consistently continued in that vein for all the following centuries as He worked with man, demanding right choices and acts from man with the commands He gave him. Evil exists in this world only to the extent that man is not following God, as God hates and opposes wickedness even as He continues to love man. And He didn’t suddenly change with the advent of Christ and say, “Now I’m just going to put a portion of you sinners in heaven and the rest in hell, regardless of any choice of your’s in the matter.” All of revelation, all of the bible, is an appeal, a knock on your door; there’s no need to be informed unless you need to choose. And it continued in Christ’s final and full revelation so that, among other passages, Paul could echo this truth in 2 Cor 5:20:
“We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.”
The cross, itself, is an appeal, always standing on the horizon for man to come to and bow before, or not.
2, 3. “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” 2 Pet 3:9
“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men” Titus 2:11
“Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God.”
It should be obvious that not all will respond. Some will turn to God for a while and then let the cares and/or attractions of the world draw them away, not persevering, proving to be poor soil. Some may taste of the heavenly gift and later reject it, or escape the pollution of the world by the knowledge of Christ and then return to their pigsty. Some will receive the gift of faith but fail to express it for fear of man. Some will bury what they’ve been given and be booted from the Kingdom while others will take it and produce “a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown”. All biblical concepts.
4. God doesn’t covet evil; He wants the goodness that He created His world in, the goodness that He, Himself, is. Do I need to explain that further? The first evil act is for creation to rebel against God and His authority, His perfect wisdom. Faith, OTOH, is to acknowledge Him first of all, turning back to Him and submission to Him. Our “yes” is creation turning back, one of us at a time.
5. Abraham’s “yes” is the reason God counted him as righteous, because that yes, that faith, is, again, the very best first thing a human can do. It places us back into the right and just state of acknowledgement of and submission to God, where all creation belongs. God, who could squash us like a bug instead, yes, covets our right use of the gift of freedom that He gave us, for our own highest good. That’s the nature of love. Heb 11:6 relates here:
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."
6. Adam’s act of disobedience was simultaneously an act of unbelief. He literally disbelieved God, heeding the opinions of his peers, himself: the moral opinion of creation over God. The result: God was effectively no longer Adam’s God, and this is why Adam’s descendants are born without the “knowledge of God” that we all disparately need, in order to live. Jesus came, “in the fullness of time”, presumably when man was, finally, just barely ready to receive it, to restore faith in God, by fully revealing the true God, a God worth knowing, believing in, hoping in and, most importantly, loving. Only within that relationship is justice finally served in God’s creation. Faith, itself a gift of grace, is also a human choice, to accept and act upon that gift. And this is basic Christianity.
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All dictionaries are not the inspired words of God. They are like any human commentary.
Death came into the world because of Adam, but is physical death bad in and of itself?
Yes, man needs death or Christ coming again to help motivate him to act sooner and not later. Death is here to help us fulfill our earthly objective which Adam did not fulfill prior to sinning.
Ro. 5: 12 “… because all sinned”
In what way is, what I am saying not a likely possible alternative?
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fhansen
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There are criteria for receiving the gift of eternal life.
1.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." Rom 2:7
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14
"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 6:7-8
"Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Rev 21:7-8
“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:12-15
2. Death is earned; it's "the wages of sin".
Firstly, Paul is speaking to-warning- believers in the passages from Romans and Galatians listed above. And such sentiments-admonishments, exhortations- are listed elsewhere, such as:
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:20-23
We must, and now can, be a slave to righteousness, not sin:
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17
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That is quoting a single scripture with no exegesis or context. That is not valid as supporting your claim.
Your claim was:
And you were also asked to make sure that
So now that we have the full conversation trail in front of us, let's go through what you have considered support. Does Rev 3:20 really support the claim that we must respond to saving grace in order for it to save us?That our response to an offer of salvation is the determining factor?
Well no. A single sentence is removed from its surrounding context. The context is a letter being written to those who are already saved. So not only does it not support what it claims to support, but it also contradicts other scriptures that pertain to soteriology the most condensed and clear being (Romans 8:29-30), but also every scripture that refers to the "elect" or the "called".
It presents a picture of God that contradicts what Scripture tells us of God's self-revelation (Ps 115:3; Dan 4:35; Is 46:10; 1 Chron 29:11;2 Chron 20:6; Isaiah 55:11).
If salvation is contingent upon our response to an offer, then his sovereignty is violated.
I will have to finish later.
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fhansen
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Christ’s righteousness is given to us by virtue of union with Him. That’s the only true righteousness, just as that union, itself, is the true state of justice or righteousness for man. Man was made for communion with God, IOW, and is lost, dead, sick, existing in a state of relative chaos and injustice-in sin- when apart from Him. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5
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