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Second Federal Law Enforcement shooting in Minneapolis

Valletta

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In a statement, Department of Homeland Security officials said the incident began at 6:50 p.m. Wednesday when federal law enforcement conducted a "targeted traffic stop" of a person from Venezuela. According to DHS, the person fled the scene in his vehicle, crashed, then ran away. When federal agents caught up to the man, "the subject and law enforcement were in a struggle on the ground, two subjects came out of a nearby apartment and also attacked the law enforcement officer with a snow shovel and broom handle."

Walz is fanning the flames, saying it is Donald Trump who wants more violence. Yet Walz has urged citizens to alert others with whistles, etc. to the presence of ICE.
 

Matt5

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I call this the great muddle: Muddling feelings and laws. Now we have a clash between the two. Who should prevail?

Note that Trump was explicitly elected to enforce immigration law. Then some groups are outraged that the Trump administration wants to enforce immigration law.

I imagine the clashes are going to escalate into another BLM summer. Maybe they'll call it ICE summer.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I call this the great muddle: Muddling feelings and laws. Now we have a clash between the two. Who should prevail?

Note that Trump was explicitly elected to enforce immigration law. Then some groups are outraged that the Trump administration wants to enforce immigration law.
The Gestapo in Nazi Germany also wanted to enforce the law utilizing a 1936 decree that exempted them from judicial review. The problem is tactics. They have led to American citizens speaking and acting. At least two are now dead and the nation is more divided than ever since the civil war.

This administration is toxic both at home and abroad.
 
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Valletta

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The Gestapo in Nazi Germany also wanted to enforce the law utilizing a 1936 decree that exempted them from judicial review. The problem is tactics. They have led to American citizens speaking and acting. At least two are now dead and the nation is more divided than ever since the civil war.

This administration is toxic both at home and abroad.
It's not about "tactics" at all. That's an excuse. It's about people who are angry Trump won the election, and political leaders who fan the flames of violence and hatred. Those leaders seek more power and control, and are willing to see more people killed to get it.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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It's not about "tactics" at all. That's an excuse. It's about people who are angry Trump won the election, and political leaders who fan the flames of violence and hatred. Those leaders seek more power and control, and are willing to see more people killed to get it.
I disagree. It is about federal invasion Trump style. That is not to say there are no hard feelings about him winning the election. He is a bull in a china shop.
 
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Valletta

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I disagree. It is about federal invasion Trump style. That is not to say there are no hard feelings about him winning the election. He is a bull in a china shop.
The tactics are to get in and out and avoid confronting agitators unless absolutely necessary. The other choice was to bring in more people and arrest every person who obstructs or assaults or goes beyond barricades.
 
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John G.

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Yet Walz has urged citizens to alert others with whistles, etc. to the presence of ICE.

Sounds like N. Ireland during the Troubles when housewives would bang garbage lids on the pavement to alert people that the army or police were coming!
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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The tactics are to get in and out and avoid confronting agitators unless absolutely necessary. The other choice was to bring in more people and arrest every person who obstructs or assaults or goes beyond barricades.
They had the guy on the ground and had already taken his weapon.
 
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Tuur

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I disagree. It is about federal invasion Trump style. That is not to say there are no hard feelings about him winning the election. He is a bull in a china shop.
Raises eyebrows.

My ancestors had a front-row seat to Sherman. Want to hear about the federal invasion they saw?
 
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Valletta

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Is there any longer any dispute about this?
Whether ruled justifiable or not will depend upon the perspective of the person who fired the first shot. The investigation will bring that out. If fired by an ICE officer someone's life must appear to be in imminent danger in order for it to be justifiable. Shooting an unarmed woman from 30 feet away, where there is no imminent danger, would be a bad shooting. I must say for the future, any time anyone jumps into the middle of an active law enforcement operation, and this character had done it before, it risks the lives of everyone in the area.
 
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Yarddog

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Whether ruled justifiable or not will depend upon the perspective of the person who fired the first shot. The investigation will bring that out. If fired by an ICE officer someone's life must appear to be in imminent danger in order for it to be justifiable. Shooting an unarmed woman from 30 feet away, where there is no imminent danger, would be a bad shooting. I must say for the future, any time anyone jumps into the middle of an active law enforcement operation, and this character had done it before, it risks the lives of everyone in the area.
Well, glad that isn't the case in the Pretti shooting. Videos show that ICE was the aggressors. Pretti was standing on the opposite side of the street from the ICE agents. A few agents then crossed the street and confronted the protesters. They began shoving and arguing with the protesters.

If ICE would have remained on their side, this incident, most likely, wouldn't have occurred.
 
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Valletta

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Well, glad that isn't the case in the Pretti shooting. Videos show that ICE was the aggressors. Pretti was standing on the opposite side of the street from the ICE agents. A few agents then crossed the street and confronted the protesters. They began shoving and arguing with the protesters.

If ICE would have remained on their side, this incident, most likely, wouldn't have occurred.
ICE was in the middle of an active law enforcement situation. This was not Pretti's first encounter, in a previous incident he had scuffled with ICE officers and received a broken rib. This time, once Pretti put his hands on an officer, he committed an assault. He committed an additional crime by resisting arrest.
 
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Yarddog

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ICE was in the middle of an active law enforcement situation.
And? That doesn't give them a lawful reason attack peaceful protesters, across the street.
This was not Pretti's first encounter, in a previous incident he had scuffled with ICE officers and received a broken rib.
Yes, he was again protesting peacefully. Agents attacked him after he started Lawfully blowing a whistle.
This time, once Pretti put his hands on an officer, he committed an assault.
Officer assaulted Pretti first, as he was rendering aid to a woman that agents had pepper sprayed.
He committed an additional crime by resisting arrest.
It's not illegal to resist an unlawful arrest.
 
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Valletta

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And? That doesn't give them a lawful reason attack peaceful protesters, across the street.

Yes, he was again protesting peacefully. Agents attacked him after he started Lawfully blowing a whistle.

Officer assaulted Pretti first, as he was rendering aid to a woman that agents had pepper sprayed.

It's not illegal to resist an unlawful arrest.
Peaceful protesters were not attacked. Death threats have been made against ICE officers and their families, if they focused on peaceful protesters they would be dead. Watch the video, Pretti went for the officer after the woman was shoved. One of the officers present shouted that Pretti had a gun, Pretti resisted, and two officers shot him. It is illegal to resist arrest in Minnesota, please no one try it, this is what can happen. There are plenty of attorneys around here, this is just an example of what they might tell you and not an endorsement:
 
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Yarddog

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Peaceful protesters were not attacked.
According recent videos, they were.
Death threats have been made against ICE officers and their families, if they focused on peaceful protesters they would be dead.
They weren't made by that group. What another group of protesters may have done, doesn't effect all protesters.
Watch the video, Pretti went for the officer after the woman was shoved.
The officer walks across the street and shoves Pretti after some heated words were exchanged. He also shoves other protesters.

Pretti is later seen filming ICE agents as the agents pepper spray a woman. She stumbles away and Pretti goes to her aid. Agents then grab Pretti and pepper spray him and he begins to struggle with them.
One of the officers present shouted that Pretti had a gun, Pretti resisted, and two officers shot him.
Pretti is on this hands and knees as agents are trying to get him on his belly. One agent yells gun and removes the gun from Pretti's waist. That officer turns away from the struggle and another officer who had been watching the first agent points his weapon at Pretti's back and begins shooting.
It is illegal to resist arrest in Minnesota, please no one try it, this is what can happen.
It's illegal to resist a lawful arrest, which hasn't been established. Many people are arrested and charged with resisting but charges are dismissed because of an unlawful arrest.

People should not resist any arrest attempt but it is hard when a person is being attacked by the arrestee. Pepper spray can disorientate people and their actions can be misinterpreted as resistance.
 
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Yarddog

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