When does God consider that we are His child?

fli · Wednesday at 4:15 PM

Just when do we become a child of God? When we believe in Jesus we are born of His Spirit. Jesus is God and we reasonably believe that we are considered a child of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. NKJV

But John, the one that taught us we needed to be born from above to enter God's kingdom, also tells us we only have the right to become His child after we believe in Him. The right to become means God does not consider us to have become one of His children just because we believe in His Son.

Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. NKJV

When we are adopted, God has accepted us as one of His children. God will not adopt us until we have died in Jesus. We need to submit to sanctification so we can be perfected. Being perfected means when we get to heaven we will be obedient to God and we will love all our brethren, all redeemed people. Without those two behaviors heaven would not be heaven. Without obedience to God there would be war in heaven. Without everyone loving each other there would be no the peace in heaven. Therefore, God will not take us to heaven until we have been perfected.

Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

God adopts us after we have been disciplined. Only after we have accepted His discipline have, we truly made Jesus our Lord.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. NKJV

When we first enter Jesus, he begins to teach and convict us of our sins. He teaches us that we must keep his 2 commandments and also keep his word that He convicts us of our need to put to death the sins of the flesh.

1 John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

Above are His 2 commandments: “You might say: When did God give us those commandments?” First of all, every word of God that tells us we must do or not do something is a commandment. Notice also, if we keep those 2 commandments we abide in Him. So, when did God tell us those commandments?

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. NKJV

Above is the first commandment. From 1John we learn that to abide in Him we must keep believing in Him. It does not mean that we must keep from sinning by obeying the law as some continue to teach.

John 13:33 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NKJV

It is clear that the second commandment Jesus is telling us to love other believers.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." NKJV

By the above we know that anyone who keeps the two commandments loves Jesus. Don't we have to repent of the sins He convicts us of? No! We need to follow His word. That means we let Him put us to death or we work with Him to put the sin(s) to death. Both ways we have put our sin(s) to death, through the Spirit.

So how can God say that salvation is not of works if we have to keep 2 commandments, plus we have to be disciplined?

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV

God gave us everything we needed to get into heaven when we put our hope in Him to get us into heaven. All we need to do is to continue to believe.

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you hear. NKJV

Paul also tells us that that for us to continue to be holy and blameless in His sight we must continue to have hope in Jesus.

Revelation 12: 17 and Revelation 14: 12 only those who keep the commandments and the faith or witness of Jesus are the ones who make it through to the end.

Mark Quayle · Wednesday at 4:54 PM

fli said:
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. NKJV

But John, the one that taught us we needed to be born from above to enter God's kingdom, also tells us we only have the right to become His child after we believe in Him. The right to become means God does not consider us to have become one of His children just because we believe in His Son.

This assumption is a common error. Over and over I see the claim that coincidence implies causal order. It does not. The KJV is misleading, there, by the word, "become", in John 1:12. They rightly render some respect to the word that literally indicates a beginning or a (in the perfect tense) "having come from" something. The middle voice is used here, which indicates a large degree of latitude in interpretation. But it does not demand a causal sequence from or to other co-mentioned facts.

Neither the English nor the Greek in John 1:12 says, "AFTER". It only conveys the state, the status, and the coinciding of the one thing with the other. The Greek text uses the point-in-time Aorist tense, in the infinitive, along with the word, "authority" —not exactly, "right"— to denote a complete action, and the gift of adoption into God's family. We have authority as children of God to reject claims that bring consideration or doubt as to who we are. CS Lewis seems to claim, in his Space Trilogy, that we even have, now, (currently), authority over heavenly beings (angels), just as scripture say that we will even judge angels when we are glorified. (The phrase, "Already, but not yet", comes to mind.)

In modern thinking, it is assumed that "received" denotes an act of the will, as though God cannot regenerate until one allows it. That too, is not the primary use of the verb in the ancient Greek. And like it, the word, "believe" denotes something that happened, and not necessarily an act of the will. BUT and further, it is elsewhere in scripture insisted that one does by will choose to entrust, yield, obey, repent and lay hold of, and even to do things to increase faith. In fact, scripture insists that if one does not do these things, that one does not belong to God. But Salvation is entirely by Grace alone, through faith alone, which itself is a gift of God—not a work generated by the will of man.

d taylor · Wednesday at 5:21 PM

fli said:
Just when do we become a child of God? When we believe in Jesus we are born of His Spirit. Jesus is God and we reasonably believe that we are considered a child of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. NKJV

But John, the one that taught us we needed to be born from above to enter God's kingdom, also tells us we only have the right to become His child after we believe in Him. The right to become means God does not consider us to have become one of His children just because we believe in His Son.

Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. NKJV

When we are adopted, God has accepted us as one of His children. God will not adopt us until we have died in Jesus. We need to submit to sanctification so we can be perfected. Being perfected means when we get to heaven we will be obedient to God and we will love all our brethren, all redeemed people. Without those two behaviors heaven would not be heaven. Without obedience to God there would be war in heaven. Without everyone loving each other there would be no the peace in heaven. Therefore, God will not take us to heaven until we have been perfected.

Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

God adopts us after we have been disciplined. Only after we have accepted His discipline have, we truly made Jesus our Lord.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. NKJV

When we first enter Jesus, he begins to teach and convict us of our sins. He teaches us that we must keep his 2 commandments and also keep his word that He convicts us of our need to put to death the sins of the flesh.

1 John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

Above are His 2 commandments: “You might say: When did God give us those commandments?” First of all, every word of God that tells us we must do or not do something is a commandment. Notice also, if we keep those 2 commandments we abide in Him. So, when did God tell us those commandments?

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. NKJV

Above is the first commandment. From 1John we learn that to abide in Him we must keep believing in Him. It does not mean that we must keep from sinning by obeying the law as some continue to teach.

John 13:33 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NKJV

It is clear that the second commandment Jesus is telling us to love other believers.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." NKJV

By the above we know that anyone who keeps the two commandments loves Jesus. Don't we have to repent of the sins He convicts us of? No! We need to follow His word. That means we let Him put us to death or we work with Him to put the sin(s) to death. Both ways we have put our sin(s) to death, through the Spirit.

So how can God say that salvation is not of works if we have to keep 2 commandments, plus we have to be disciplined?

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV

God gave us everything we needed to get into heaven when we put our hope in Him to get us into heaven. All we need to do is to continue to believe.

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you hear. NKJV

Paul also tells us that that for us to continue to be holy and blameless in His sight we must continue to have hope in Jesus.

Revelation 12: 17 and Revelation 14: 12 only those who keep the commandments and the faith or witness of Jesus are the ones who make it through to the end.

-

The very momnet a person believes in Jesus for Eternal Life (God's free gift). They becomes a pernamnet born again child of God.

throughfierytrial · Wednesday at 5:36 PM

d taylor said:
-

The very momnet a person believes in Jesus for Eternal Life (God's free gift). They becomes a pernamnet born again child of God.

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a]predestined us for adoption to sonship[b] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
(Ephesians 1:4-6)

Before the creation of the world… because we are predestined.

In an earthly way you might say once you believe…Jesus says the one who believes in me has crossed over from death to life.

Or (earthly marker):
Once baptized

d taylor · Wednesday at 5:55 PM

throughfierytrial said:
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a]predestined us for adoption to sonship[b] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
(Ephesians 1:4-6)

Before the creation of the world… because we are predestined.

In an earthly way you might say once you believe…Jesus says the one who believes in me has crossed over from death to life.

Or (earthly marker):
Once baptized

-

The veses states God chose believers to be holy and blameless in his sight, God predestined that.
That a believer will be adopted to sonship through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians is not saying God has predestined certain people to Eternal Life.
The verses are saying God has predestined believers to be holy and blameless in his sight and to be adopted to sonship through Jesus Christ.

True God knows who will believe and who will not believe. But That is not the same as predestining a select people to Eternal Life.
Jesus took away the sin of the world, unbelievers and believers.

throughfierytrial · Wednesday at 6:23 PM

d taylor said:
-

The veses states God chose believers to be holy and blameless in his sight, God predestined that.
That a believer will be adopted to sonship through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians is not saying God has predestined certain people to Eternal Life.
The verses are saying God has predestined believers to be holy and blameless in his sight and to be adopted to sonship through Jesus Christ.

True God knows who will believe and who will not believe. But That is not the same as predestining a select people to Eternal Life.
Jesus took away the sin of the world, unbelievers and believers.4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a]predestined us for adoption to sonship[b] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Do you believe in predestination?
Christs work has been done before creation of the world… (Hebrews and Revelations)
We can not expound much on these facts, but the Bible presents them as facts.
Apostle Paul also says he was chosen before the creation of the world to be an apostle.
Perhaps we have differences here in understanding perhaps not…I’m often sketchy but in hopes people see the passages to fill in the gaps of my posts.
Apostle Paul says in Philippians that he does not consider himself to yet have taken hold of it.

d taylor · Wednesday at 6:50 PM

throughfierytrial said:
Do you believe in predestination?
Christs work has been done before creation of the world… (Hebrews and Revelations)
We can not expound much on these facts, but the Bible presents them as facts.
Apostle Paul also says he was chosen before the creation of the world to be an apostle.
Perhaps we have differences here in understanding perhaps not…I’m often sketchy but in hopes people see the passages to fill in the gaps of my posts.
Apostle Paul says in Philippians that he does not consider himself to yet have taken hold of it.

-

Are You Predestined? (Ephesians 1–3) – Grace Evangelical Society

fli · Wednesday at 6:53 PM

Mark Quayle said:
This assumption is a common error. Over and over I see the claim that coincidence implies causal order. It does not. The KJV is misleading, there, by the word, "become", in John 1:12. They rightly render some respect to the word that literally indicates a beginning or a (in the perfect tense) "having come from" something. The middle voice is used here, which indicates a large degree of latitude in interpretation. But it does not demand a causal sequence from or to other co-mentioned facts.

I have 31 translations and only 6 said something other than what the NKJV had it translated. I will go with the experts on this. You want to argue the meaning of words. I do not accept that. Please refrain from doing that on my posts as the experts, people chose them for their ability, and you obviously have not been asked by anyone to translate a new version.

Mark Quayle said:
Neither the English nor the Greek in John 1:12 says, "AFTER". It only conveys the state, the status, and the coinciding of the one thing with the other. The Greek text uses the point-in-time Aorist tense, in the infinitive, along with the word, "authority" —not exactly, "right"— to denote a complete action, and the gift of adoption into God's family. We have authority as children of God to reject claims that bring consideration or doubt as to who we are. CS Lewis seems to claim, in his Space Trilogy, that we even have, now, (currently), authority over heavenly beings (angels), just as scripture say that we will even judge angels when we are glorified. (The phrase, "Already, but not yet", comes to mind.)

After is not in any of the v have. The 31 version say that they were given the right to become a child. That means they are not yet a child but have been given a chance to become.

Mark Quayle said:
In modern thinking, it is assumed that "received" denotes an act of the will, as though God cannot regenerate until one allows it. That too, is not the primary use of the verb in the ancient Greek. And like it, the word, "believe" denotes something that happened, and not necessarily an act of the will.

We do not choose to believe the gospel.

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; NKJV

When a person hears the gospel and it gives them hope, God gives them saving faith and love for all the saints.

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. NKJV

All we need do to keep being holy and blameless is to keep hoping in Jesus. We do not have to do any work to keep our faith, However, Jesus does say if they don't build their house on His saying that they are very foolish.

We do not need to do any work to become a child of God, but we do need to accept His discipline. Once we have to make the choice to accept or reject His discipline, we have reached the point of eternal life. To be adopted we either let Jesus kill us in putting the sins of the flesh to death and He kills us and we go to heaven and haven't done any work. Those with a carnal will love their sin more than what Jesus offers. Theynwill choose to pass on being disciplined. But to those say we don't have to be disciplined and refuse it:

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

They become illegitimate. Illegitimate children have no inheritance in Heaven. Also, in Hebrews 12: 6 God states that He chastens every son He accepts. To me that means if anyone isn't chastened, He does not adopt them.

d taylor said:
-

The very momnet a person believes in Jesus for Eternal Life (God's free gift). They becomes a pernamnet born again child of God.

Please read what I wrote above. The very fact that God orders us to continue to believe should tell people that they can lose salvation.

throughfierytrial · Wednesday at 7:09 PM

d taylor said:

d taylor said:
Are You Predestined? (Ephesians 1–3) – Grace Evangelical Society

d taylor said:
-

Are You Predestined? (Ephesians 1–3) – Grace Evangelical Society

Sorry, I don’t open links. My understanding and posting are based purely on my Bible reading. Also, I am churched… a WELS or ELS Lutheran should you like outside info.
Thank you anyway, I’m sure you meant well.

We don’t know the predestined… who is, who is not. We do know that IF we are saved we were also called and predestined.(Romans) This is how Paul could state he was chosen before the creation of the world to be an Apostle.

On the other hand as I say, we do not know the predestined, that fact does not negate the other which is we were chosen in Him before the creation of the world.

The OP as I understood it asks when? Well, from Gods view or our earthly view? Paul says in Philippians that he had not yet taken hold of it but pressed on to the goal. (From this we see the earthly view.) From Gods perspective we were already chosen.

d taylor · Wednesday at 7:11 PM

fli said:
I have 31 translations and only 6 said something other than what the NKJV had it translated. I will go with the experts on this. You want to argue the meaning of words. I do not accept that. Please refrain from doing that on my posts as the experts, people chose them for their ability, and you obviously have not been asked by anyone to translate a new version.

After is not in any of the v have. The 31 version say that they were given the right to become a child. That means they are not yet a child but have been given a chance to become.

We do not choose to believe the gospel.

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; NKJV

When a person hears the gospel and it gives them hope, God gives them saving faith and love for all the saints.

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. NKJV

All we need do to keep being holy and blameless is to keep hoping in Jesus. We do not have to do any work to keep our faith, However, Jesus does say if they don't build their house on His saying that they are very foolish.

We do not need to do any work to become a child of God, but we do need to accept His discipline. Once we have to make the choice to accept or reject His discipline, we have reached the point of eternal life. To be adopted we either let Jesus kill us in putting the sins of the flesh to death and He kills us and we go to heaven and haven't done any work. Those with a carnal will love their sin more than what Jesus offers. Theynwill choose to pass on being disciplined. But to those say we don't have to be disciplined and refuse it:

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

They become illegitimate. Illegitimate children have no inheritance in Heaven. Also, in Hebrews 12: 6 God states that He chastens every son He accepts. To me that means if anyone isn't chastened, He does not adopt them.

Please read what I wrote above. The very fact that God orders us to continue to believe should tell people that they can lose salvation.

-

Like i have not heard the, you can lose salvation lie a million times before. There is not a single verse that states a person can become un-born again and cross back over from life to death after they have believed in Jesus for Eternal Life.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Mark Quayle · Wednesday at 7:46 PM

fli said:
I have 31 translations and only 6 said something other than what the NKJV had it translated. I will go with the experts on this. You want to argue the meaning of words. I do not accept that. Please refrain from doing that on my posts as the experts, people chose them for their ability, and you obviously have not been asked by anyone to translate a new version.

In any translation from one language to another, there are nuances of meaning that of necessity are lost. It is simply a fact, unavoidable. I did say the KJV rightly translated; I may even admit there is no better rendering. I did not say it was wrong. What I tried to say is that WE infer what isn't there by that [modern—NKJV notwithstanding—] rendering.

Mark Quayle · Wednesday at 7:54 PM

d taylor said:
The very momnet a person believes in Jesus for Eternal Life (God's free gift). They becomes a pernamnet born again child of God.

fli said:
The very fact that God orders us to continue to believe should tell people that they can lose salvation.

That's based on a mistaken presupposition. An analogy: Not only does the command not imply the ability to obey, but the mention of necessity of obedience does not indicate that God does not see to it that obedience is done. "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to his good pleasure." So with this: Salvation is only sure, for those whom God has chosen. None of the particulars are automatic.

@d taylor is correct, here. This is not a shrugged dismissal by way of OSAS. It is merely a sure thing, and the road is not easy.

Mark Quayle · Wednesday at 8:16 PM

fli said:
After is not in any of the v have. The 31 version say that they were given the right to become a child. That means they are not yet a child but have been given a chance to become.

fli said:
We do not choose to believe the gospel.

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; NKJV

When a person hears the gospel and it gives them hope, God gives them saving faith and love for all the saints.

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. NKJV

All we need do to keep being holy and blameless is to keep hoping in Jesus. We do not have to do any work to keep our faith, However, Jesus does say if they don't build their house on His saying that they are very foolish.

Are you suggesting then that there is no effort of will, no purposeful yielding our will to God, no decisions to repent, in our sanctification? I don't think you are. I agree completely our faith is valid, and not by our will or effort, but by the source of it—God himself. If he is not the source, it is not valid. But we are told what we should do to add to it, increase it, and not to squelch it. We cannot kill it—don't get me wrong—if it is genuine it is everlasting. So I don't think we are disagreeing here, unless you mean something outlandishly different from what I do by those words.

fli said:
We do not need to do any work to become a child of God, but we do need to accept His discipline. Once we have to make the choice to accept or reject His discipline, we have reached the point of eternal life.

"Reached the point"? What does that even mean in this context? What are you implying? It is not our accepting or rejecting of his discipline that decides or induces or brings about our eternal life. The fact of our eternal life does not hinge on anything WE do. "By grace you are saved through faith, and that, not of yourselves. It is the gift of God..." Argue that it affects the quality or position we occupy in his Kingdom, if you will, but never question whether it is anything other than Grace.

fli said:
To be adopted we either let Jesus kill us in putting the sins of the flesh to death and He kills us and we go to heaven and haven't done any work.

The very mention of, "To be adopted we...let Jesus...". THAT is work. Not Grace. Show me where the Bible says that we let Jesus do something in order for us to be adopted.

fli said:
Those with a carnal will love their sin more than what Jesus offers. Theynwill choose to pass on being disciplined. But to those say we don't have to be disciplined and refuse it:

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

With this I agree completely.

fli said:
They become illegitimate. Illegitimate children have no inheritance in Heaven. Also, in Hebrews 12: 6 God states that He chastens every son He accepts. To me that means if anyone isn't chastened, He does not adopt them.

No, they don't become illegitimate. They never were adopted. They never were legitimate. They had no inheritance. They are not children of God, adopted or natural.

NBB · Wednesday at 8:37 PM

I believe that apart from believing in Jesus, To have also all God wants for you, you need to be filled with the Holy spirit, like the disciples at pentecost.

fli · Thursday at 8:32 AM

Mark Quayle said:
Are you suggesting then that there is no effort of will, no purposeful yielding our will to God

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV

Please read the entire scripture. Everything comes from our hope in Jesus. When anyone hears the gospel and it gives them hope, that hope comes from what Jesus did for them if they believe the message. Jesus gives us hope. Do people control what gives them hope? It probably comes from their fears and values. Did they repent when they had hope?

Mark Quayle said:
, no decisions to repent, in our sanctification?

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." NKJV

At the time of salvation when they had hope in Jesus, God forgave their sins and granted them repentance to the point of eternal life. That point is when a person either will or will not accept discipline. Because God granted repentance to that point If they love Jesus more than the world but do not have faith to face withdrawal of their sins. God can kill them under discipline and take them to heaven.
A person has no idea of all the sins they have or are committing at the time. Matthew 3:13 if God did not grant repentance and forgiveness for all sins, the person would not have all righteousness.

Mark Quayle said:
I don't think you are. I agree completely our faith is valid, and not by our will or effort, but by the source of it—God himself. If he is not the source, it is not valid. But we are told what we should do to add to it, increase it, and not to squelch it. We cannot kill it—don't get me wrong—if it is genuine it is everlasting. So I don't think we are disagreeing here, unless you mean something outlandishly different from what I do by those words.

"Reached the point"? What does that even mean in this context? What are you implying? It is not our accepting or rejecting of his discipline that decides or induces or brings about our eternal life.

The point of eternal life is when a person either will or will not accept discipline. We have done nothing to that point therefore salvation is a free gift requiring nothing from us because to this point Jesus gave us everything to save us.

After we prove we are considered sons and required to act as son and be obedient.

Mark Quayle said:
The fact of our eternal life does not hinge on anything WE do. "By grace you are saved through faith, and that, not of yourselves. It is the gift of God..." Argue that it affects the quality or position we occupy in his Kingdom, if you will, but never question whether it is anything other than Grace.

The very mention of, "To be adopted we...let Jesus...". THAT is work. Not Grace. Show me where the Bible says that we let Jesus do something in order for us to be adopted.

If you say that you do not have to let God discipline you and still be a legitimate son is contrary to Hebrews 12; 3-8.

Matthew 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. NKJV

Discipline is based on love. God loves you and wants the best for you, it is not punishment. If you love Him more that worldly sins, you will accept His discipline. If you find your life pleases you more than what Jesus offers you want to continue living and not give it up. If you find that Jesus offers you more than what your sinful pleasures, you will let Him kill you or you will give up your sin even if you have to fight for it.

To be disciplined one must have the Spirit of Jesus as He is the one who convicts. If you don't have the Spirit of Jesus, you can't be convicted and are not saved.

1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

Please note in verse 30 Paul states that some of the Corinthians being disciplined went to sleep. When Paul says a Christian goes to sleep, he means they died and went to heaven. In other words, God disciplined them and they did note repent and quit the behavior God was disciplining them for, so He killed them with discipline. Discipline is not punishment; it is God loving a person to keep them from something being judged with the world, lose salvation as Christian are not judged with the world.

Verse 32 is proof that a person can lose salvation. No legitimate son of God will be judged with the world. The Spirit of Jesus must be in a person to be chastised. Therefore, only true believers can be disciplined. Below is the judgment process when we die the first time

After we die, OT and NT, we are judged to see if we are sinners. If we believed God, believe in His messiah, we are declared to be righteous, At the end of time, 1000-year reign of Jesus, the world will be judged by the criteria in the Matthew 19 judgment. Christians will not be judged at that judgment; we were judged for sins when Jesus died.

Luke 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." NKJV

Above is proof of the first judgment and criteria. (John 3: 18 is proof of the NT criteria at the first judgment.) The thief would be with Jesus in paradise. He was not judged for sins nor will he be judged with the world at Matthew 25:31-46. He loved Jesus' brethren because God imputed to him the righteousness of Jesus and no human did more for the Israelis that Jesus.

Verse 32 is proof that a person can lose salvation. No legitimate son of God will be judged with the world. The Spirit of Jesus must be in a person to be chastised. Therefore, only true believers can be disciplined.

peter2 · Thursday at 9:30 PM

Hello all of you
in french, the word : "right" is replaced by an expression that might be translated : "might", in Jn 1:12

fli said:
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. NKJV

so that i think i may give it the following significance :"He gave them might to become children of God"

Mark Quayle · Thursday at 9:40 PM

Mark
Are you suggesting then that there is no effort of will, no purposeful yielding our will to God
Mark Quayle said:
, no decisions to repent, in our sanctification?
Mark Quayle said:
I don't think you are. I agree completely our faith is valid, and not by our will or effort, but by the source of it—God himself. If he is not the source, it is not valid. But we are told what we should do to add to it, increase it, and not to squelch it. We cannot kill it—don't get me wrong—if it is genuine it is everlasting. So I don't think we are disagreeing here, unless you mean something outlandishly different from what I do by those words.
Mark Quayle said:
"Reached the point"? What does that even mean in this context? What are you implying? It is not our accepting or rejecting of his discipline that decides or induces or brings about our eternal life.
Mark Quayle said:
The fact of our eternal life does not hinge on anything WE do. "By grace you are saved through faith, and that, not of yourselves. It is the gift of God..." Argue that it affects the quality or position we occupy in his Kingdom, if you will, but never question whether it is anything other than Grace.

The very mention of, "To be adopted we...let Jesus...". THAT is work. Not Grace. Show me where the Bible says that we let Jesus do something in order for us to be adopted.

fli said:
Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV

Please read the entire scripture. Everything comes from our hope in Jesus. When anyone hears the gospel and it gives them hope, that hope comes from what Jesus did for them if they believe the message. Jesus gives us hope. Do people control what gives them hope? It probably comes from their fears and values. Did they repent when they had hope?

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." NKJV

At the time of salvation when they had hope in Jesus, God forgave their sins and granted them repentance to the point of eternal life. That point is when a person either will or will not accept discipline. Because God granted repentance to that point If they love Jesus more than the world but do not have faith to face withdrawal of their sins. God can kill them under discipline and take them to heaven.
A person has no idea of all the sins they have or are committing at the time. Matthew 3:13 if God did not grant repentance and forgiveness for all sins, the person would not have all righteousness.

The point of eternal life is when a person either will or will not accept discipline. We have done nothing to that point therefore salvation is a free gift requiring nothing from us because to this point Jesus gave us everything to save us.

After we prove we are considered sons and required to act as son and be obedient.

If you say that you do not have to let God discipline you and still be a legitimate son is contrary to Hebrews 12; 3-8.

Matthew 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. NKJV

Discipline is based on love. God loves you and wants the best for you, it is not punishment. If you love Him more that worldly sins, you will accept His discipline. If you find your life pleases you more than what Jesus offers you want to continue living and not give it up. If you find that Jesus offers you more than what your sinful pleasures, you will let Him kill you or you will give up your sin even if you have to fight for it.

To be disciplined one must have the Spirit of Jesus as He is the one who convicts. If you don't have the Spirit of Jesus, you can't be convicted and are not saved.

1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

Please note in verse 30 Paul states that some of the Corinthians being disciplined went to sleep. When Paul says a Christian goes to sleep, he means they died and went to heaven. In other words, God disciplined them and they did note repent and quit the behavior God was disciplining them for, so He killed them with discipline. Discipline is not punishment; it is God loving a person to keep them from something being judged with the world, lose salvation as Christian are not judged with the world.

Verse 32 is proof that a person can lose salvation. No legitimate son of God will be judged with the world. The Spirit of Jesus must be in a person to be chastised. Therefore, only true believers can be disciplined. Below is the judgment process when we die the first time

After we die, OT and NT, we are judged to see if we are sinners. If we believed God, believe in His messiah, we are declared to be righteous, At the end of time, 1000-year reign of Jesus, the world will be judged by the criteria in the Matthew 19 judgment. Christians will not be judged at that judgment; we were judged for sins when Jesus died.

Luke 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." NKJV

Above is proof of the first judgment and criteria. (John 3: 18 is proof of the NT criteria at the first judgment.) The thief would be with Jesus in paradise. He was not judged for sins nor will he be judged with the world at Matthew 25:31-46. He loved Jesus' brethren because God imputed to him the righteousness of Jesus and no human did more for the Israelis that Jesus.

Verse 32 is proof that a person can lose salvation. No legitimate son of God will be judged with the world. The Spirit of Jesus must be in a person to be chastised. Therefore, only true believers can be disciplined.

I have read the entire scripture. (I've been a believer since before I can remember, and grew up in a Missionary compound, continually exposed to a Christian environment. I am now 70 years old. You say, "Everything comes from our hope in Jesus." I hope you mean that in exuberant hyperbole. The notion that everything comes from us, due to what we are looking forward to is not what anything in the "entire Scripture" scripture says. Maybe you misspoke.

Not only did them realizing something, NOT cause Jesus to forgive their sins —(I really wonder where you get these constructions from)— but nothing they do is instrumental in bringing about nor securing their salvation. Even their belief (nevermind their hope that comes with faith) does not begin with them, but with God's gift.

You say, "Verse 32 is proof that a person can lose salvation. No legitimate son of God will be judged with the world". No, it doesn't say anything about losing one's salvation. And your second statement affirms it —no illegitimate 'son of God' even has salvation to lose it! And your earlier description speaks of what happens when a legitimate son refuses correction. He doesn't lose his salvation either, just as you affirm.

Rose_bud · Friday at 1:05 AM

I understand that in John 1:12-13, the concept of adoption as a son/daughter via the new birth. Receiving/laying hold/ being in Christ encompasses both a positional reality (heir) and a new nature.

John is contrasting this new inclusion (verse 12-13) against those who refused (11)

He came to his own, and his own did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 8 highlights this aspect... There were Jews who were convinced they were sons, but Jesus pointed out that they were slaves - slaves to sin (34) and they were rejecting the Son of the house who could free them (36).
According to the Jews, they were sons of Abraham (verse 33, 39), but Jesus said that they did not walk in Abraham's ways and did not accept what Abraham understood concerning Him (39-40). According to them, they were sons of God (41), but Jesus disagreed, as they did not accept God's ways (42). According to Jesus, they were sons of the devil (44) because they aligned themselves with his ways, demonstrated by their actions. (The fruit was consistent with the nature of the tree)

He, as the Son, had the authority to set them free from this state, because He was greater than Abraham (53-58), and God (59), but they did not believe/trust who He is. Yet he only revealed what the Father said and did.

If I consider this passage, then we are children of God when we trust in Jesus, who frees us and empowers us to walk according to His ways, no longer slaves to sin but heirs of the promise, the same promise Abraham, the father of faith, held to.

In addition, they had initially believed, but when challenged to hold to His teaching, they questioned (31-33). As it appears they thought their status as descendants of Abraham alone secured their sonship ( ie, the blood, flesh, and will of man).

I suppose one could still ask what we think secures our sonship apart from trusting/holding to the teachings of Jesus.

peter2 · Friday at 1:26 AM

Rose_bud said:
I suppose one could still ask what we think secures our sonship apart from trusting/holding to the teachings of Jesus.

I suppose when one sins, one challenges God's wish to give his son, faith, etc..
When one sins, it seems to me one joins world in his challenging God's goodness and gifts.
When one sins, with the world, indeed, one replies the Father : i don't need nor care of your goodness and of your gifts, just look at what i make of your goodness and of your gifts : i crucify them.
As for me i think what secures our sonship is to start with keeping thankful towards God's goodness and gifts

Rose_bud · Friday at 1:32 AM

peter2 said:
I suppose when one sins, one challenges God's wish to give his son, faith, etc..
When one sins, it seems to me one joins world in his challenging God's goodness and gifts.
When one sins, with the world, indeed, one replies the Father : i don't need nor care of your goodness and of your gifts, just look at what i make of your goodnes and of your gifts : i crucify them.
As for me i think what secures our sonship is to start with keeping thankful towards God's goodness and gifts

Yes, especially when gratitude is a response to His goodness as both a posture of the heart and demonstrated through action.

We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

When does God consider that we are His child?

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Truth-Lover

Well-Known Member

Truth-Lover

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Truth-Lover

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Ordinary life contemplative

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

Ordinary life contemplative

Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

Similar threads