Inside the Atonement: What Christ Actually Did on the Cross

bling · Jan 13, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
Imputation

2 Cor 5:21 "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God"

Our sin imputed to Christ and Christ's righteousness imputed to us. This is a legal term, always meaning to regard, credit, or account. It never means to make morally righteous.

“2 Cor 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.”

This is an extremely important verse to show imputing our sins to Christ, so the imputing of righteousness to man seems logical, BUT:

Is that even a good translation of 1 Cor. 5:21?

What does “Christ made to be sin” or “Christ made sin” mean: did Christ become a sinner, did a being become an intangible thing like “sin” and are there other scripture to help us with this?

If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for either translation?

Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21

There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).

The Greek word for "sin" that Paul uses is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.

You can certainly do a deeper study of 2 Cor 5: 21 and we can go into Ro.3-4.

Arial-byGrace said:
Imputed - logizoma: to credit, to reckon, to count, to place to one's account. It is bookkeeping and courtroom language. Paul uses the word eleven time in Romans 4.

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."

"Made righteous" means here constituted legally just as Adam's sin was legally imputed.

Ro. 5:19 “For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,…” and Ro. 5: 12 “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned”

First off we have “many were made sinners…”, but that is not all were made sinners, so who was not made a sinner?

Ro. 5:19 does not tell us how the many were made sinners, but Ro. 5:12 tells us “because all sinned” so is the “all” speaking of all mature adults?

All mature adults do sin resulting from the “knowledge of good and evil” passed down to everyone including Jesus. Jesus always having Godly type Love did not sin, but we needing to obtain Godly type Love will sin.

Christ going to the cross provide a way for me to empathetically go to the cross and be disciplined for my sins, thus reconciled with God, forgiven to obtain Godly type Love and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit so I will not have to sin.

Arial-byGrace said:
Phil 3:8-9 "Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith."

We have the indwelling Holy Spirit now.

Arial-byGrace said:
1 Cor 1:30 "Christ Jesus--became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption."

Christ is not merely an example but he himself is our righteousness.

We have His Spirit in us.

Arial-byGrace said:
If Christ's righteousness is not imputed through his work on the cross, then the cross no longer accomplishes full salvation but only makes it possible. It transforms the gospel from an accomplished verdict into an ongoing project. It is a completely different understanding of the cross itself.

Nonbelievers are evil, criminal, kidnappers holding a child of God out of the kingdom, they can either accept or reject the ransom payment.

Arial-byGrace said:
Christ as our substitute, bears our guilt, by his blood pays our ransom. This propitiates God's wrath and as a result, his righteousness is imputed to us.

Substitution explains who stands in our place.
Ransom explains what his death accomplishes.
Propitiation explains why God accepts the substitution and ransom.
Imputation explains how the benefit of Christ's work is legally applied to the believer.
Remove any of those and the cross loses its power to forgive the sins of the sinner and the legal standing of reconciled to God. And a different gospel is being preached.

You say: “…God accepts the substitution and ransom.”, so does that make, God out to be the criminal kidnapper.

God forgives your sins, so how is the cross forgiving your sins?

You have the cross changing the unchangeable God when it is us who need help to change.

bling · Jan 13, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
Justification

Romans 4:5 "And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."

It is Jesus in his work on the cross who justifies the ungodly, through faith being counted as righteousness. It is the imputation form which the justification flows, through faith.

It states “his faith is counted as righteousness…” and does not say Christ’s righteousness is imputed to him.

Arial-byGrace said:
Romans 8:33 "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies."

This is courtroom language. It is a legal declaration, just as death for sin is a legal declaration that must meet justice.

The Greek word translated: “justify” can also be translated “righteous”, so do not make a lot of the fact the translators used justified.

Arial-byGrace said:
Romans 5:9 "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

Justification is grounded in Christ's blood on the cross. It ties justification directly to:
blood
wrath
is propitiation logic
Justification involves imputation (Romans 4:3,6).

Our justification brings peace and assurance. Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are fully and permanently reconciled to God only on the basis of the actual work (what he was actually accomplishing and enduring) of Jesus on the cross.

Without understanding that these five things are what Christ was doing when he went to the cross for those God is giving him, we have a one-dimensional Jesus and a one-dimensional gospel, at best, and a lot of passages that cause us confusion and/or lead to inaccurate teaching and understanding. Let's see what happens if any of those five things is removed or just simply never looked at.
Summary
Substitution
Remove substitution and Christ does not stand in our place. If Christ did not stand where the sinner stood, then no sinner's penalty was executed. There would be no actual salvation.

God saves the sinner when forgiveness takes place. Prior to the cross, people were saved (Ro. 3:25).

Arial-byGrace said:
Ransom
If no price is paid, nothing is actually released. No liberation from the kingdom of darkness.

Who is the undeserving kidnapper being paid this huge ransom payment to allow a child to go to the Father?

Arial-byGrace said:
Propitiation
Remove propitiation and wrath is not satisfied. The coherence of Romans 1-3 collapses, as does God's justice and the necessity of blood. If wrath is not satisfied, then justification is unjust. The gospel then would present a benevolent but unjust God, and the cross would be unnecessary.

God’s Love can handle God’s wrath, and Godly type Love in us can handle our wrath.

Arial-byGrace said:
Imputation
Remove imputation and Christ's righteousness is not credited. There would be no justification by faith alone. no assurance. and no exchange of our sin to him, and his righteousness to us. The cross would become a reset button and a second chance, but not righteousness-giving.

Our Faith is being credited.

We are to know we are saved by the indwelling Holy Spirit in us.

Arial-byGrace said:
Forgiven sinners would still be unrighteous sinners. God requires perfect righteousness, and a neutral status cannot stand in his court. The gospel would become, salvation is probation, assurance is impossible.

If you have been forgiven by God you have as your guarantee of God fulfilling all His promises to you by your having the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Arial-byGrace said:
Justification
Remove justification and there is no legal declaration. No peace with God, no freedom from condemnation, no finality of salvation. The cross becomes a process, a potential, a relationship without verdict.

If God never declares "righteous" the believer remains under accusation. What it does to the gospel is remove peace, brings uncertainty, no completed salvation.

Each step resolves a problem that the next step assumes has already been solved. If even one element is removed the gospel collapses.

Don't take the atonement lightly and without exploration if you want to truly know the Lord and what he laid down his life to do.

How are you taking it personally?

Arial-byGrace · Jan 13, 2026

bling said:
It states “his faith is counted as righteousness…” and does not say Christ’s righteousness is imputed to him.

Easton's Bible Dictionary - Imputation

Imputation
is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ).

Imputed means "counted as".

bling said:
The Greek word translated: “justify” can also be translated “righteous”, so do not make a lot of the fact the translators used justified.

Not in that sentence it can't be. If it could it was it would be δίκαιος. However, it is δικαιῶν. It describes what God does as Judge---justifies/declares righteous.

bling said:
God saves the sinner when forgiveness takes place. Prior to the cross, people were saved (Ro. 3:25).

That scripture does not say that people were saved before the cross because God didn't count sin against them. It does not say they were saved. It means he did not vent his full wrath in judgment at the moment and in those times. And that was because his plan of redemption was not finished. People in the OT were saved the same way they are today---through faith in God. And Jesus is God; he was always there. It was in his incarnation that he defeated sin and death on the cross and the way now is still faith, but the faith is directed towards trust in the person and work of Jesus incarnate.

bling said:
Who is the undeserving kidnapper being paid this huge ransom payment to allow a child to go to the Father?

No kidnapper is being paid a ransom. Your scenario actually has a kidnapped kidnapper paying a ransom to set the kidnapped free. The ransom is being paid to God for the sake of justice against sin being satisfied. It doesn't have anything to do with a kidnapper.

bling said:
God’s Love can handle God’s wrath,

God's love demands wrath against evil. HIs justness has no room for the mingling of holy and corrupt. That too is love.

bling said:
and Godly type Love in us can handle our wrath.

Irrelevant and inaccurate since only God is a godly type of love. Perfect and immutable iow.

timothyu · Jan 13, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
The ransom is being paid to God for the sake of justice against sin being satisfied.

According to Mosaic tradition and understanding, redemption meant... in everyday matters... release of a person or animal by payment or replacement.

However, in DIVINE matters it did not mean payment or replacement, BUT rather it meant liberation from bondage or oppression including death.

Those were the definitions understood regarding redemption from the Hebrew tradition until Jesus' day.

The Greek word's meaning was ransom (but that conflicts with the notion of liberation regarding Divine matters)

The gift of redemption was freely given (redemption means freedom at no cost or penalty).

Man's wrath killed Jesus, based upon the very adversarial spirit within man and elohim alike, that God was at war with. Death had always been the result of adversity but in Jesus' case, there was no adversity to the Father. He was not sacrificed, but freely made the sacrifice of allowing man to murder Him, thus showing death could, and would now be defeated by allegiance to the Will of the Father, His Kingdom come. He showed the way. Our sins were not forgiven, but we would be if our allegiance was to the Will of the Father, rather than adversity. Repentance leading to a fruitful life and the gift of the Kingdom, based upon allegiance to the Will of the Father rather than of mankind. Continued adversity would still lead to death. A return to the Garden means a return to the original commandment, again by choice. Jesus made His choice. We must make ours.

Arial-byGrace · Jan 13, 2026

timothyu said:
According to Mosaic tradition and understanding, redemption meant... in everyday matters... release of a person or animal by payment or replacement.

Why do you quote something that is speaking of "ransom" and then post only about redemption.

timothyu said:
Man's wrath killed Jesus, based upon the very adversarial spirit within man and elohim alike, that God was at war with. Death had always been the result of adversity but in Jesus' case, there was no adversity to the Father. He was not sacrificed, but freely made the sacrifice of allowing man to murder Him, thus showing death could, and would now be defeated by allegiance to the Will of the Father, His Kingdom come. He showed the way. Our sins were not forgiven, but we would be if our allegiance was to the Will of the Father, rather than adversity. Repentance leading to a fruitful life and the gift of the Kingdom, based upon allegiance to the Will of the Father rather than of mankind. Continued adversity would still lead to death. A return to the Garden means a return to the original commandment, again by choice. Jesus made His choice. We must make ours.

I don't know why you feel the need to speak in terms of "elohim" and "adversity". It completely clouds what you are saying in a cloak of obfuscation. I don't speak or think in those terms, and I don't know anyone who does. When you can use normal language maybe I will engage.

Arial-byGrace · Jan 13, 2026

bling said:
Our Faith is being credited.

Imputation is about Christ's righteousness being credited as our own. It is through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).

bling said:
We are to know we are saved by the indwelling Holy Spirit in us.

Relevance?

bling said:
If you have been forgiven by God you have as your guarantee of God fulfilling all His promises to you by your having the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Irrelevant to OP and to the post it quotes. It fell under the heading of "imputation" so the statement you should besponding to is without imputation

Arial-byGrace said:
Forgiven sinners would still be unrighteous sinners. God requires perfect righteousness, and a neutral status cannot stand in his court. The gospel would become, salvation is probation, assurance is impossible.

I don't like being misrepresented by having my words removed from their context.

bling said:
How are you taking it personally?

What do you mean?

timothyu · Jan 13, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
When you can use normal language maybe I will engage.

That's basically what God said when humans and elohim alike refused to put His will first. Adversity. The whole point of scripture from beginning to end. The Gospel of the Kingdom, Jesus' ONLY gospel.

fhansen · Jan 13, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
"Made righteous" means here constituted legally just as Adam's sin was legally imputed.

No it doesn't- it means to be made righteous. If you notice in this life, through experience, all men became actually unrighteous-sinners-by Adam's sin, by his disobedience, not merely imputed to be unrighteous. By the same token we become righteous by Christ's obedience. And this is reflected throughout Scripture where a new righteousness, testified to by the law but apart from the law, is given, freeing us from the captivity to sin that earns us death.

Arial-byGrace · Jan 13, 2026

fhansen said:
No it doesn't- it means to be made righteous. If you notice in this life, through experience, all men became actually unrighteous-sinners-by Adam's sin, by his disobedience, not merely imputed to be unrighteous. By the same token we become righteous by Christ's obedience. And this is reflected throughout Scripture where a new righteousness, testified to by the law but apart from the law, is given, freeing us from the captivity to sin that earns us death.

We will be made righteous wen Christ returns. In the meantime, we are counted as righteous because God, through the work of Christ counts us as righteous/ His righteousness is imputed, not infused.

As to Adam's sin being imputed to us it is very important to pay close attention to what was said. Adam's sin was imputed to us. That is an expression of federal headship as we see in Romans. "Just as through one man all became sinners---" and then states the new federal headship of Christ for all who are in him through faith. We became a sinful being who sins personally also. Jesus reversed both of those on the cross. Our legal standing before God as united to Christ is righteous. But it is not our own righteousness, it is his righteousness. We are gradually being transformed to the image of Christ by the Spirit working in us----known as sanctification.

fhansen · Jan 13, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
We will be made righteous wen Christ returns. In the meantime, we are counted as righteous because God, through the work of Christ counts us as righteous/ His righteousness is imputed, not infused.

As to Adam's sin being imputed to us it is very important to pay close attention to what was said. Adam's sin was imputed to us. That is an expression of federal headship as we see in Romans. "Just as through one man all became sinners---" and then states the new federal headship of Christ for all who are in him through faith. We became a sinful being who sins personally also. Jesus reversed both of those on the cross. Our legal standing before God as united to Christ is righteous. But it is not our own righteousness, it is his righteousness. We are gradually being transformed to the image of Christ by the Spirit working in us----known as sanctification.

Well, that's an interpretation of Romans 5, alright. And what about Rom 6:22, then, where sanctification results in eternal life? That's more than strictly being counted as righteous until Christ returns.

Arial-byGrace · Jan 14, 2026

fhansen said:
Well, that's an interpretation of Romans 5, alright. And what about Rom 6:22, then, where sanctification results in eternal life? That's more than strictly being counted as righteous until Christ returns.

Faith in the person and work of Christ is what results in eternal life (John 3:35; John 5:24; John 6:40).

It is more than just being counted as righteous to be sure. But it is not more works of righteousness or actual righteousness which is what is required. We won't achieve that while we are still here, still have our old nature, still live in a fallen world, still wrestle with our flesh (Gal 5:16-17; Romans 7:15-20).

It is God who works in us conforming us more and more to the image of Christ while we are here Romans 8:29; Romans 12:2; Col 3:10; 1 John 3:2).

God will complete the work he began in us (Php1:6).

If we were not counted as righteous through the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, and if our own righteousness were the way of eternal life, none would gain eternal life.

fhansen · Jan 14, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
Faith in the person and work of Christ is what results in eternal life (John 3:35; John 5:24; John 6:40).

It is more than just being counted as righteous to be sure. But it is not more works of righteousness or actual righteousness which is what is required. We won't achieve that while we are still here, still have our old nature, still live in a fallen world, still wrestle with our flesh (Gal 5:16-17; Romans 7:15-20).

It is God who works in us conforming us more and more to the image of Christ while we are here Romans 8:29; Romans 12:2; Col 3:10; 1 John 3:2).

God will complete the work he began in us (Php1:6).

If we were not counted as righteous through the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, and if our own righteousness were the way of eternal life, none would gain eternal life.

I think one has to allow, going by Scripture along with the historically understood faith, that it's somewhere inbetween. Scripture refers in many places to eternal life stemming from causes other than faith alone, and refers to sin as still capable of earning one death even after coming to faith. And this means there must be a link, a link where faith is always present, a link where saving faith never means a divorce or separateness from personal righteousness and man's obligation to have it and to act accordingly. He just can't have it without God, and faith is man's "ticket" to God. Either way, this mandate has never changed from man's creation until today:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

Faith is the means to a humble walk with God where love and mercy (which Jesus tells us are what God really wants of us in Matt 9) are intrinsic to that walk, while pride, OTOH, opposes all of that.

bling · Jan 14, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
Easton's Bible Dictionary - Imputation
Imputation
is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ).

Imputed means "counted as".

First off: Dictionaries tell us how “people” are using the word, which may be very different from how God uses the word if God uses it at all.

Look at Ro. 5 for in the NKJV we have: “…but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”

Your guilty of sin because there is a law written on your heart and not because Adam’s sin was “imputed” to you.

Philemon 1:18 If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me.

Paul is not talking about a wrong between humans (something that can be reimbursed). Philemon is indebted to Paul, so Paul is asking Philemon to reduce his indebtedness to Paul in proportion to Onesimus indebtedness to Him. You can pay someone else’s debt, but you cannot take the fair/just Loving discipline (punishment) for the other person.

Arial-byGrace said:
That scripture does not say that people were saved before the cross because God didn't count sin against them. It does not say they were saved. It means he did not vent his full wrath in judgment at the moment and in those times. And that was because his plan of redemption was not finished. People in the OT were saved the same way they are today---through faith in God. And Jesus is God; he was always there. It was in his incarnation that he defeated sin and death on the cross and the way now is still faith, but the faith is directed towards trust in the person and work of Jesus incarnate.

Romans 3:25 New International Version (NIV) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

I use the NIV though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which is translate “past over” by most translators, yet the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, in the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

The contrast is before and after the cross, if the people prior to the cross are saved the same as those after the cross than there is no contrast and Paul has no point.

In Ro. 3:25 what sins is God leaving beforehand unpunished if it is not forgiven sins prior to the cross?

Could people empathically be crucified with Christ, if Christ had not gone to the cross prior?

Arial-byGrace said:
No kidnapper is being paid a ransom. Your scenario actually has a kidnapped kidnapper paying a ransom to set the kidnapped free. The ransom is being paid to God for the sake of justice against sin being satisfied. It doesn't have anything to do with a kidnapper.

It is not a “ransom” being paid, if God is receiving the ransom since he would fully deserves any payment. If God is receiving the payment in full, He is not forgiving anything, the same as any loaner paid in full is not forgiving the debt paid.

If there is no kidnapper than there is no ransom.

Why can I not describe the sinner, refusing to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified and thus holding a child away from his Father and home, a “kidnapper” since that is what some kidnappers do? The kidnapper description works great, but can you come up with a better one word description?

Arial-byGrace said:
God's love demands wrath against evil. HIs justness has no room for the mingling of holy and corrupt. That too is love.

God’s wrath against sinners who refuse to humble accept God’s Loving forgiveness, helps us to want to humbly accept His forgiveness and avoid God’s wrath, so that wrath does express God’s Love.

There is no “wrath” toward forgiven sins.

Arial-byGrace said:
Irrelevant and inaccurate since only God is a godly type of love. Perfect and immutable iow.

Godly type Love is an automatic gift given to those who humbly accept God Love in the form of forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt of sin and thus obtain this unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) Luke 7.

bling · Jan 14, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
Imputation is about Christ's righteousness being credited as our own. It is through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).

Eph. 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Eph. 2:8-9 is saying nothing about: “Christ's righteousness being credited as our own”, it is talking about our faith resulting in God’s gift of salvation, fully realize “faith” is not a “work” and faith is not the result of works.

Arial-byGrace said:
Relevance?

The indwelling Holy Spirit is not Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us, but deity dwelling within us.

Arial-byGrace said:
Irrelevant to OP and to the post it quotes. It fell under the heading of "imputation" so the statement you should besponding to is without imputation

The indwelling Holy Spirit is not Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us, but deity dwelling within us. We still have the free will to partner with the Spirit or quench the Spirit, so it is not like “righteousness” dropping out of the sky on us.

Arial-byGrace said:
I don't like being misrepresented by having my words removed from their context.

My post are lengthy enough, but I am sorry if I skipped this.

I do not agree with the idea: “Forgiven sinners would still be unrighteous sinners.” Are you a forgiven sinner?

To say, we are sinners behind a clock of Christ’s blood or righteousness, would not be comforting, since I want to quit sinning and be pleasing to God.

There are things we obtain by becoming saved including forgiveness, Godly type Love (Luke 7), purpose, fellowship and the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ro. 8).

Can the indwelling Holy Spirit participate in sinning?

Do you have to quench the Spirit to sin and if you do not quench the Spirit can you keep from sinning?

Godly type Love is not logical, so can you use that Love motivation to compel you do only good?

Arial-byGrace said:
What do you mean?

How does the cross impact your interbeing personally?

Arial-byGrace · Jan 14, 2026

bling said:
First off: Dictionaries tell us how “people” are using the word, which may be very different from how God uses the word if God uses it at all.

That did not come from an ordinary dictionary. It came from Eaton's BIBLE dictionary therefore is giving biblical usage. People should read more carefully before the jump to a response.

bling said:
Look at Ro. 5 for in the NKJV we have: “…but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”

Your guilty of sin because there is a law written on your heart and not because Adam’s sin was “imputed” to you.

That passage is not saying that Adam's sin is not imputed to all men. The flow of the chapter argues the opposite---that Adam's sin is imputed. Look at 12-13 in the ESV and some other translations. It means not counted against where there is no law. And Paul is dealing with how sin is counted, not whether guilt exists at all. He had already dealt with how it came into the world (Adam). and then he dealt with how deth reigned from Adam to Moses before the law.

bling said:
Philemon 1:18 If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me.

Paul is not talking about a wrong between humans (something that can be reimbursed). Philemon is indebted to Paul, so Paul is asking Philemon to reduce his indebtedness to Paul in proportion to Onesimus indebtedness to Him. You can pay someone else’s debt, but you cannot take the fair/just Loving discipline (punishment) for the other person.

You missed the point of those that scripture being given.

Arial-byGrace · Jan 14, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
Imputation is about Christ's righteousness being credited as our own. It is through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).

You respond:

bling said:
Eph. 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Eph. 2:8-9 is saying nothing about: “Christ's righteousness being credited as our own”, it is talking about our faith resulting in God’s gift of salvation, fully realize “faith” is not a “work” and faith is not the result of works.

In my post, notice the period between the two sentences? It separates the two statements. Eph 2:8-9 was not given as an example of imputed righteousness.

As to your interpretation of the passage, it is not talking about our faith resulting in the gift of salvation. It says that the faith that saves is a gift from God. If faith that we produce from our fallen thoroughly sinful nature while we are at enmity with God, and dead in our sins, is produced from within us, then it is a work. There is no way to successfully dance around that. It becomes something that we add to the work of Christ that makes his work effective. And if we don't add our faith to his work, his work becomes idle---it effectivenss waiting on actions by a human.

bling said:
The indwelling Holy Spirit is not Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us, but deity dwelling within us.

I never said the indwelling Spirit was Christ's righteousness being imputed to us. The indwelling is a mode- of- presence, not a localization of essence, so be clear on that.

bling said:
I do not agree with the idea: “Forgiven sinners would still be unrighteous sinners.” Are you a forgiven sinner?

Yes. Do I still sometimes sin? Yes. Do you? His righteousness is imputed to us and we are sealed in him for that very reason. Otherwise, he would lose all that the Father gave him instead of none that Father gave him.

bling said:
To say, we are sinners behind a clock of Christ’s blood or righteousness, would not be comforting, since I want to quit sinning and be pleasing to God.

We aren't sinners behind a cloak of Christ's righteousness. We are given his robes of righteousness to wear. We are his. We belong to him. It has nothing to do with whether we want to quit sinning. The reason a person wants to quit sinning is because they are in him and it is a fruit of being in him. Now we recognize sin. Before we didn't. Now we hate sin. Before we loved it. You are confusing the righteousness of Christ being imputed to us with teaching antinomianism. The imputation of Christ's righteousness should be a great comfort to you and deepen your love for him. It should be something that spurs you towards pleasing God. Don't make the mistake of thinking that if you have that imputation then you won't care if you sin or not and won't desire to please God. Such a thing is impossible for one who has been united with Christ.

bling said:
Can the indwelling Holy Spirit participate in sinning?

No and he doesn't. I feel certain that you acknowledge that you do sin sometimes so why do you keep making arguments as though yu don't?

bling said:
Do you have to quench the Spirit to sin and if you do not quench the Spirit can you keep from sinning?

You need to tell me what YOU think quenching the SPirit is?

bling said:
Godly type Love is not logical, so can you use that Love motivation to compel you do only good?

God "type" love is perfectly logical. It is human love that is not. God "type" love is the normal order of creation that was lost in the fall. And we still only have human love. It is the love of God poured into us that causes (not compells) us to desire to do good

bling said:
How does the cross impact your interbeing personally?

It changed me from a God hater and scoffer, a rebellious person who sought to be in control of my own life and destiny into one who trusts God and wants thanks him for being in control of my life. From one who did not know Jesus into one who even though I do not now see him, love him. Who knows he is the greatest of all treasures. One who would give up everything for him. And one who is moldable and pliable in his hands as he shapes me and directs me through his word. Who listens to his word and learns from it and allows him to grow me up. To a person who wants to know the truth, even if I don't like it, because he is the truth.

fhansen · Jan 14, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
And if we don't add our faith to his work, his work becomes idle---it effectivenss waiting on actions by a human.

Yes, the grace is there; He's knocking on our door; we must yet respond. And even that respoonse is aided by grace, but not overidden by grace. Man can say "no". It's the "yes" God covets, and that pleases Him immensely, and that He counts as justice, because we could do otherwise, we could remain in our injustice, separated and apart from the Vine.

BobRyan · Jan 14, 2026

bling said:
Here is a post on Reddit you might read:
https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/18wbj0v A better translation of ἱλασμός (hilasmos) would seem to be atoning sacrifice for reconciliation and not something to solve “God’s wrath problem, since His Love can solve that without any help from Jesus.

Amen thanks for sharing that

bling said:
Look at the context of Ro. 3:25 … whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith."

If God is putting forth the resolution to “His” problem to forgive, how is our faith required?

Good point

bling said:
While if we say God is putting forth Jesus’ atonement sacrifice to provide reconciliation for humans, than yes, we need that sacrifice to experience personally being empathetically crucifixion for our sins and thus experience the Loving discipline of God for our sins and become reconciled with God.

Amen!

God's "problem" is that He loves us and yet we are in rebellion against Him. So He
1. reconciles us to Himself "While we were yet sinners" ,
2. He pays the debt we owe (the second death debt of lake of fire in Rev 20),
3. Engages in the Heb 8:1-4, Heb 9 role of High Priest in heavens sanctuary
4. accomplishes the Dan 7:9-10, Rom 2:4-16 judgment in heaven (that starts sometime after fall of Roman empire)
5. Stands at the door and knocks Rev 3, convicts us of sin righteousness and judgment
6. causes the new Birth, new creation, New Covenant promise
7. Daily continues the sanctification process whereby we are "Being sanctified" all our life
8. provides eternal life, heaven, new Jerusalem, New Earth,

fhansen · Jan 14, 2026

bling said:
The indwelling Holy Spirit is not Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us, but deity dwelling within us.

Yes! It's authentic righteousness now, God's own life dwelling within us-the essence and source of man's righteousness!

TennesseeDude · Jan 14, 2026

Arial-byGrace said:
Ransom

He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Col 1:13-14).

For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."(Mark 10:45)

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (1 Tim 2:5-6)

A ransom is a price paid by a free person to deliver another person from slavery. Or a debt that is not owed paid for the one who owes the debt in order to set him free of the debt.

Let's look at the Col verse more closely. A domain is an authority or jurisdiction. A transfer is a relocation from one realm to another. So, we have a kingdom transfer, not simply a moral change. Salvation is not merely forgiveness it is a jurisdictional transfer. Taken right out of the kingdom of darkness and brought into the kingdom of the Son.

Jesus gave himself, his own body and blood, his own life to pay the ransom that would release us from bondage to/in sin.

He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives--- (Luke 4:18)
A captive is in bondage to the captor.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked---carrying out the desires of the body and the mind and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (Eph 2:1-3)
By nature, is an inherent condition, not learned behavior. Dead is inability, not mere weakness. See also Romans 8:7-8 and 1 Cor 2:14.

Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death---? (Romans 6:16-17)
Paul describes bondage as slavery not neutrality.

On the cross Jesus substituted himself in our place as a ransom for our deliverance from darkness, bringing us into the light of life.

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