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Can a faithful Christian be damned for not being baptized?

jas3

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I guess we are to uderstand "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance" (Mt 3:11) to mean that repentance does not precede baptism but is the result of it.
In the particular case of the Pharisees receiving John's baptism, yes. I don't know why you think that that would be relevant in a discussion about Christian baptism.
So, when we are commanded to repent and be baptized, we must be baptized with John's baptism to enable repentance then get baptized again so that our sins can be forgiven.
No, this is just a basic logical error. Even if we said the above principle applied to everyone, not just the Pharisees in that moment, there's nothing there that says that repentance only comes through John's baptism.
So when Robertson wrote his words, that means the phrase was understood his way at the time of his writing.
And that would be relevant if we were talking about a 20th century Baptist confession of faith.
But we speak and understand English. So we are responsible to gather to ourselves experts on a long dead language to understand the meaning of the words and phrases in it.
You don't think a theologian who spoke the language when it was in active use is an expert?
That's not a problem for me. I trust the Lord with all my heart.
It's a problem if you take the Lord's promises about things like the gates of hell not prevailing against the Church seriously. It's also a problem if you accept the theological conclusions of the early Church in some respects but not others.
This is not to say that my church did not result from a divorce from Catholicism. It just means that if there was a divorce, all traces of the previous relationship have dissapeared.
But you would probably say that your church has evolved in a direction that takes it back to the original, true faith. And if baptismal regeneration is a deviation from that faith, there should be evidence that the early Christians took a purely symbolic view of baptism.
 
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RileyG

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But you said baptism is a means of grace except for those who see it as only as symbolic. So since babies don't have any thought at all about baptism, they don't fall into the category of "seeing it only as symbolic"? That makes no sense. So personal responsibility is not required, right?
Baptism, if done with the correct Trinitarian formula, is a means of grace. It’s what God does for us.

That’s what I meant.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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In the particular case of the Pharisees receiving John's baptism, yes. I don't know why you think that that would be relevant in a discussion about Christian baptism.
It's pertinant because the argument is that Greek grammar dictates a certain reading.
No, this is just a basic logical error. Even if we said the above principle applied to everyone, not just the Pharisees in that moment, there's nothing there that says that repentance only comes through John's baptism.
The logical error is to say that forgiveness or repentance or new life or receiving God's Spirit comes as the result of baptism when all of these things are clearly indicated in Scripture as logically preceding baptism.
And that would be relevant if we were talking about a 20th century Baptist confession of faith.
Actually, I was not pointing to Robertson but to the misconception that people before us were better able to hear God's voice and follow Him than we can today.
You don't think a theologian who spoke the language when it was in active use is an expert?
Expert in the language? Probably. But if he were to believe that forgiveness of sins is the result of baptism, that would be a theological problem, not a problem with understanding the language.
It's a problem if you take the Lord's promises about things like the gates of hell not prevailing against the Church seriously.
This is another theological difference. As with forgiveness, we see Jesus as the prime mover in breaking down the gates of hell and rescuing those who were taken captive by the devil. It's not the church or the ordinances that save. It is Jesus Himself who saves.
It's also a problem if you accept the theological conclusions of the early Church in some respects but not others.
Hmmm. The early church would include the Galatian church. Is it wise to reject their abandonment of Christ (Gal 1), or Peter's hypocricy which was inspired by James' people (Gal 2)? Each theological position a person takes, whether today or 2000 years ago, must stand on its own and must be approved by God. He is a good Father (Heb 12), and He makes our paths straight (Pr 3).
But you would probably say that your church has evolved in a direction that takes it back to the original, true faith.
No, I don't think about things like that. But I do trust the things that the Lord has taught me because I have found Him to be trustworthy.
And if baptismal regeneration is a deviation from that faith, there should be evidence that the early Christians took a purely symbolic view of baptism.
Baptism is symbolic and not salvific. There is plenty of evidence for that. Look at the thief on the cross. Look at the gentiles who received the Holy Spirit before being baptized. Look at Jesus' preaching, Paul's preaching, and Peter's preaching that those who believe in Jesus will not perish but have eternal life.
 
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jas3

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The logical error is to say that forgiveness or repentance or new life or receiving God's Spirit comes as the result of baptism when all of these things are clearly indicated in Scripture as logically preceding baptism.
Really? You must have a different version of Acts 19:1-7 than I do.
Expert in the language? Probably. But if he were to believe that forgiveness of sins is the result of baptism, that would be a theological problem, not a problem with understanding the language.
Your argument against the traditional understanding of Acts 2:38 was a linguistic one, that we can't know for sure what είς means there. In that case, an expert in the language should settle the debate.
This is another theological difference. As with forgiveness, we see Jesus as the prime mover in breaking down the gates of hell and rescuing those who were taken captive by the devil. It's not the church or the ordinances that save. It is Jesus Himself who saves.
It is Jesus Himself who saves, but the idea behind Matt. 16:18 is that the Church will never be completely lost. That understanding is pretty universal in Protestant confessions of faith, too, including Baptist ones like the London Baptist Confession or even the Southern Baptists' Faith and Message. I don't know what brand of Baptist you are, but that interpretation of the verse shouldn't be unusual to you. Baptists usually get around this theological difficulty by saying there's always some mixture of truth and error in the Church but the "main things" have always been believed.
Hmmm. The early church would include the Galatian church. Is it wise to reject their abandonment of Christ (Gal 1), or Peter's hypocricy which was inspired by James' people (Gal 2)?
Do you not think that the Church has the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
No, I don't think about things like that. But I do trust the things that the Lord has taught me because I have found Him to be trustworthy.
So you're just doing your own thing?
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Really? You must have a different version of Acts 19:1-7 than I do.
Your argument against the traditional understanding of Acts 2:38 was a linguistic one, that we can't know for sure what είς means there.
That wasn't my argument at all. It means different things in different contexts. Robertson isn't the only one who says that.
In that case, an expert in the language should settle the debate.
AT Robertson is an expert in the language.
It is Jesus Himself who saves, but the idea behind Matt. 16:18 is that the Church will never be completely lost.
Gates are defensive. It is not about the church withstanding the onslaught of the devil. It is about Christ, the one on whom the Church is built, leading His people to victory over the devil who is not able resist.
That understanding is pretty universal in Protestant confessions of faith, too, including Baptist ones like the London Baptist Confession or even the Southern Baptists' Faith and Message.
I must have missed the part where Southern Baptists believe Peter is the rock upon which the church is built and the foundation he provides will overcome the devil's attacks.
I don't know what brand of Baptist you are, but that interpretation of the verse shouldn't be unusual to you. Baptists usually get around this theological difficulty by saying there's always some mixture of truth and error in the Church but the "main things" have always been believed.
Southern Baptist. What theological difficulty are you claiming we are working around? I never heard or read anything like the work-around you are describing. Typically, we are not focused on ancestry. Rather, we are focused on having a current-day intimate personal relationship with the triune God who lives in our hearts. Some have strayed from that mission and have become legalistic. But I never hear anyone saying, "Well, at least they get the main things right".
Do you not think that the Church has the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
So you're just doing your own thing?
God leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts every person in whom He has taken up residence. These people make up the body of Christ, the one true church. And every person in the body is personally responsible for walking in lock-step with the Spirit of God as He leads them from the intimacy of their own hearts. In that way, their unique spiritual gifts help make the body complete. To fulfill our God-assigned roles, each of us must cling to the head of the body, who is Christ.

Within an institution, the leaders of the church are in charge of the church. If a person is in the church, then they need to submit to the leaders of the church. But if that person finds significant enough conflict between what the church teaches and what the Lord teaches, then he must either convince the church to change or he must find a differnt church which does not present those conflicts. This obviously would not happen if the leaders of the church and the people of the church all follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit who lives in each of their hearts.

So yes, every person in the one true church has the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And Yes, every one of us, me included, are individually responsible to God to trust Him and walk as He directs. I do not often see this aspect of Christian living being promoted by Orthodox or Catholic or Protestant churches. Most often I see command and control of the church over the people. Is my perception wrong?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I recently spent time at a well-known prayer retreat where believers gather to seek healing, repentance, and a closer walk with God. It was there where I met a fellow believer whose passion for repentance and obedience was unmistakable. Later, during fellowship in my own home, that passion collided with conviction.

What followed was not a calm theological discussion, but a raised-voice argument — one that escalated into a painful exchange in front of his wife. It was ugly. I regret letting it reach that point.

The issue at the center of the conflict was baptism — and whether a person who has never been baptized can truly be saved.

That experience forced me to step back, not just to reexamine the theology, but to ask a more sobering question: What happens when deeply held beliefs about obedience begin to eclipse grace—and fracture fellowship in the process?

Christians across Evangelical traditions agree on this much: baptism matters. Jesus commanded it. The apostles practiced it. The Church has cherished it as a public declaration of faith and identification with Christ.

Continued below.
It seems to me that baptism is what the Lord calls Christians to receive. If a person refuses baptism and persists in refusing it then it is fair to ask "can such a person be called a faithful Christian" when they choose to refuse baptism despite the Lord's command?
And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him. But some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth. Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.​
(Mat 28:16-20)
Afterward He appeared to the Eleven as they reclined. And He reproached their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, Go into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned. And miraculous signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well. Then indeed, after speaking to them, the Lord was taken up into Heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And going out, they proclaimed everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the Word by miraculous signs following. Amen.​
(Mar 16:14-20)
 
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ChubbyCherub

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My church teaches that only cults teach that water baptism is required for salvation.

I had to speak with the elders of the church, for about an hour, to make sure that I understood the point of baptism before they would agree that I was ready to be baptized.
 
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jas3

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Gates are defensive. It is not about the church withstanding the onslaught of the devil. It is about Christ, the one on whom the Church is built, leading His people to victory over the devil who is not able resist.
I don't know where you got the idea I was claiming anything about gates attacking. If the faith was lost for the better part of the past two millennia, if there were (according to Baptist theology) no Christian baptisms since infant baptism was the norm, then the devil's resistance has been overwhelmingly successful.
What theological difficulty are you claiming we are working around? I never heard or read anything like the work-around you are describing.
See chapter 26, paragraph 3 of the London Baptist Confession.
So yes, every person in the one true church has the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And Yes, every one of us, me included, are individually responsible to God to trust Him and walk as He directs. I do not often see this aspect of Christian living being promoted by Orthodox or Catholic or Protestant churches. Most often I see command and control of the church over the people. Is my perception wrong?
Your perception involves a false dichotomy. There's no opposition between the guidance of the Holy Spirit and preserving unity with the Church. That doesn't mean you have no accountability for following a hierarch (e.g. blindly following an Arian bishop just because he's in a position of authority) but you also have to recognize that the Holy Spirit doesn't teach contradictory things to different people, so if you feel drawn to reject the consistent Christian understanding of certain parts of Scripture, it's more than likely not the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I don't know where you got the idea I was claiming anything about gates attacking. If the faith was lost for the better part of the past two millennia, if there were (according to Baptist theology) no Christian baptisms since infant baptism was the norm, then the devil's resistance has been overwhelmingly successful.
See chapter 26, paragraph 3 of the London Baptist Confession.
Your perception involves a false dichotomy. There's no opposition between the guidance of the Holy Spirit and preserving unity with the Church. That doesn't mean you have no accountability for following a hierarch (e.g. blindly following an Arian bishop just because he's in a position of authority) but you also have to recognize that the Holy Spirit doesn't teach contradictory things to different people, so if you feel drawn to reject the consistent Christian understanding of certain parts of Scripture, it's more than likely not the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I'm not inclined to look at London Baptist Confession.

You are right that the Holy Spirit does not author confusion by teaching contradictory things to different people. The one issue here, which is whether or not the watters of baptism wash away sins, is not easily separated from the notion that the act of baptism washes away sins. Some have offered that God washes away sins upon people following the proper "trinitarian formula" regardless of whether or not the person being baptized has any knowledge of what is happening. To me, this is substantially the same as saying water washes away sins and it violates the single most important concept of Christianity... than it pleases God to save those who believe the seemingly foolish gospel that Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins (1 Cor 1:21). Your argument that tradition must be given weight falls on deaf ears if tradition can not produce arguments to support its position.
 
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ViaCrucis

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My church teaches that only cults teach that water baptism is required for salvation.

I had to speak with the elders of the church, for about an hour, to make sure that I understood the point of baptism before they would agree that I was ready to be baptized.

Depends on what is meant by "required". That may seem pedantic, but there is a world of difference between the historic Christian view on the one hand: that Holy Baptism is a precious Sacrament which Christ instituted through which God acts and works to bring us from death to life by placing us in Christ, working faith in our hearts, and giving us the foundation of our walk with God by faith by the Spirit; and the view of certain sectarian groups which present Baptism as a work, another notch we must mark in order to earn salvation from God. Every mainstream, historic Church confesses the necessity of Baptism and that Baptism is salvific--a rejection of this view exists only among certain Protestant traditions of the past few centuries who view Baptism either as a covenantal sign or as a symbolic act of obedience. So when I say it depends on what is meant by "required" is this: The historic Christian confession is that Baptism is required because Christ specifically commands His Church to make disciples, baptizing them; and Scripture attaches God's promises to this Sacrament and these promises convey salvific reality: forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), being buried, dead, and raised with Christ (Romans 6:1-3), being clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27), and that it saves (1 Peter 3:21); not on account of it being a work of righteousness we do in order to win something from God (an ordinance) but on account of it being God's own gracious action toward us (a Sacrament). Baptism is not required in the sense that if a person happens to not receive Baptism then they cannot be saved, otherwise we would be speaking damnation for all the many martyrs who died before receiving Baptism, and that would be wickedness to speak in such a way of such beloved saints of God. So a church that treats baptism as a human work required in order to flip on a magic "saved" switch teach falsely; but the historic faith of God's Church has always been the biblical teaching that Baptism is a precious Sacramental means of grace through which God brings us into Christ and, in Christ, His Church.

Unfortunately these two diametrically opposite views are often confused together in certain polemical teachings.

As a Lutheran I believe, quite strongly, that Baptism is necessary. Scripture tells us plainly what Baptism is and what Baptism does, and receiving this gift of Baptism is not an act of symbolic obedience but is a profound act and work of God by His Spirit, whereby God's word is brought together with ordinary water and God does something for us. Namely: All the promises we can find in the plain text of Holy Scripture. This does not, however, mean all unbaptized persons are un-saved; because that's simply untrue. God works through His Means of Word and Sacrament, that means hearing the word is also a Means of Grace--a divine action by which God's word comes to us, united in the ordinary preaching of a minister of the Gospel. It's not the words of a man that saves us, it's the word of God (Romans 10:17); it's not water that saves us, it's the word of God (Ephesians 5:26, 1 Peter 3:21), etc. And yet God has chosen that His word be united to mundane things: preaching, water, bread and wine. So to pretend as though the water doesn't matter when God says it does; or to pretend the preaching of the word doesn't matter when God says it does, etc is in violation with God has given and revealed. So while water does not save, when God unites His word with water, and we have this precious sacred thing--Baptism--then we can trust in what God has promised here in His gift, in this sacred thing God does and gives. So when we read that we are born again "by water and the Spirit" in John 3:5 we can trust the Lord who tells us this: it's not either water or Spirit, it's water and the Spirit because the Holy Spirit is Himself living and active and at work here.

Consider the many times, throughout the Bible, where God uses ordinary things to accomplish His extraordinary purposes. Jesus took dirt and spit and placed it on the eyes of a blind man and the man was healed of His blindness. Does dirt and spit heal blindness? Of course not--and yet here ordinary dirt, mere spit, are brought together with Christ's word to heal blindness and the man gained his sight. God works through the completely ordinary. He always has.

He didn't ordain angels to be His witnesses to all nations, He ordained a group of uneducated fishermen, a lowly tax-collector, rebels, and nobodies. He didn't even choose special people, He chose ordinary people. God has always used the ordinary to accomplish His extraordinary works. Recall even with the ancient Prophets, like Elijah--it was not in the earthquake, the thunder, or the howling winds that God was found--but in the still tiny whisper. God used Moses, a man who himself said he was bad at speaking in order to proclaim His wonders to Egypt. God didn't call a king from Ur, but a pastoralist named Abram and Sarai his barren wife. God always takes the lowly and makes it lofty.
 

ChubbyCherub

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Depends on what is meant by "required". That may seem pedantic, but there is a world of difference between the historic Christian view on the one hand: that Holy Baptism is a precious Sacrament which Christ instituted through which God acts and works to bring us from death to life by placing us in Christ, working faith in our hearts, and giving us the foundation of our walk with God by faith by the Spirit; and the view of certain sectarian groups which present Baptism as a work, another notch we must mark in order to earn salvation from God. Every mainstream, historic Church confesses the necessity of Baptism and that Baptism is salvific--a rejection of this view exists only among certain Protestant traditions of the past few centuries who view Baptism either as a covenantal sign or as a symbolic act of obedience. So when I say it depends on what is meant by "required" is this: The historic Christian confession is that Baptism is required because Christ specifically commands His Church to make disciples, baptizing them; and Scripture attaches God's promises to this Sacrament and these promises convey salvific reality: forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), being buried, dead, and raised with Christ (Romans 6:1-3), being clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27), and that it saves (1 Peter 3:21); not on account of it being a work of righteousness we do in order to win something from God (an ordinance) but on account of it being God's own gracious action toward us (a Sacrament). Baptism is not required in the sense that if a person happens to not receive Baptism then they cannot be saved, otherwise we would be speaking damnation for all the many martyrs who died before receiving Baptism, and that would be wickedness to speak in such a way of such beloved saints of God. So a church that treats baptism as a human work required in order to flip on a magic "saved" switch teach falsely; but the historic faith of God's Church has always been the biblical teaching that Baptism is a precious Sacramental means of grace through which God brings us into Christ and, in Christ, His Church.

Unfortunately these two diametrically opposite views are often confused together in certain polemical teachings.

As a Lutheran I believe, quite strongly, that Baptism is necessary. Scripture tells us plainly what Baptism is and what Baptism does, and receiving this gift of Baptism is not an act of symbolic obedience but is a profound act and work of God by His Spirit, whereby God's word is brought together with ordinary water and God does something for us. Namely: All the promises we can find in the plain text of Holy Scripture. This does not, however, mean all unbaptized persons are un-saved; because that's simply untrue. God works through His Means of Word and Sacrament, that means hearing the word is also a Means of Grace--a divine action by which God's word comes to us, united in the ordinary preaching of a minister of the Gospel. It's not the words of a man that saves us, it's the word of God (Romans 10:17); it's not water that saves us, it's the word of God (Ephesians 5:26, 1 Peter 3:21), etc. And yet God has chosen that His word be united to mundane things: preaching, water, bread and wine. So to pretend as though the water doesn't matter when God says it does; or to pretend the preaching of the word doesn't matter when God says it does, etc is in violation with God has given and revealed. So while water does not save, when God unites His word with water, and we have this precious sacred thing--Baptism--then we can trust in what God has promised here in His gift, in this sacred thing God does and gives. So when we read that we are born again "by water and the Spirit" in John 3:5 we can trust the Lord who tells us this: it's not either water or Spirit, it's water and the Spirit because the Holy Spirit is Himself living and active and at work here.

Consider the many times, throughout the Bible, where God uses ordinary things to accomplish His extraordinary purposes. Jesus took dirt and spit and placed it on the eyes of a blind man and the man was healed of His blindness. Does dirt and spit heal blindness? Of course not--and yet here ordinary dirt, mere spit, are brought together with Christ's word to heal blindness and the man gained his sight. God works through the completely ordinary. He always has.

He didn't ordain angels to be His witnesses to all nations, He ordained a group of uneducated fishermen, a lowly tax-collector, rebels, and nobodies. He didn't even choose special people, He chose ordinary people. God has always used the ordinary to accomplish His extraordinary works. Recall even with the ancient Prophets, like Elijah--it was not in the earthquake, the thunder, or the howling winds that God was found--but in the still tiny whisper. God used Moses, a man who himself said he was bad at speaking in order to proclaim His wonders to Egypt. God didn't call a king from Ur, but a pastoralist named Abram and Sarai his barren wife. God always takes the lowly and makes it lofty.
Thank you.

They told me that baptism doesn't mean you're saved and it lack of it doesn't mean not saved.

It's not something that prevents or guarantees salvation, is my understanding of their understanding. Rather, it is a public declaration of giving one's life to God.
 
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ARBITER01

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I recently spent time at a well-known prayer retreat where believers gather to seek healing, repentance, and a closer walk with God. It was there where I met a fellow believer whose passion for repentance and obedience was unmistakable. Later, during fellowship in my own home, that passion collided with conviction.

What followed was not a calm theological discussion, but a raised-voice argument — one that escalated into a painful exchange in front of his wife. It was ugly. I regret letting it reach that point.

The issue at the center of the conflict was baptism — and whether a person who has never been baptized can truly be saved.


Not a salvation issue, but certainly part of the Spiritual walk with GOD described in scripture,...


1Jn 5:8 And there are three who bear witness upon the earth: The Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three into the one are.


- The blood representing the immersion in The Holy Spirit where He applies the blood of Jesus to regenerate our human spirits based on faith.

- The water representing our immersion into water upon the name of Jesus setting us apart as belonging unto Him.

- The Spirit representing the subsequent filling of The Holy Spirit in our newly blood cleansed temples.


Without properly following the pattern set down in scripture, a born again Christian would not be meeting the demands that GOD requires. For instance, without the blood, they would not have a change of heart or newness of human spirit. Without the water properly applied, they would not belong to Jesus. Without The Holy Spirit inside, they are still led by their minds and carnal/fleshly.

Everything has it's place in scripture, and yes, GOD is particular about it.
 
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The Liturgist

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It's a problem if you take the Lord's promises about things like the gates of hell not prevailing against the Church seriously. It's also a problem if you accept the theological conclusions of the early Church in some respects but not others.

Indeed - a misguided approach to the question of the early church underpins most anti-sacramental activity, as I’m sure our friend @Ain't Zwinglian , who has spoken at length on Baptism, would agree.

Quakers and others (such as Mid Acts Dispensationalists, which is what I suspect we’re dealing with in this case) who reject water baptism legitimately believe they’re continuing in the footsteps of the early Church.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not a salvation issue, but certainly part of the Spiritual walk with GOD described in scripture,...


1Jn 5:8 And there are three who bear witness upon the earth: The Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three into the one are.


- The blood representing the immersion in The Holy Spirit where He applies the blood of Jesus to regenerate our human spirits based on faith.

- The water representing our immersion into water upon the name of Jesus setting us apart as belonging unto Him.

- The Spirit representing the subsequent filling of The Holy Spirit in our newly blood cleansed temples.


Without properly following the pattern set down in scripture, a born again Christian would not be meeting the demands that GOD requires. For instance, without the blood, they would not have a change of heart or newness of human spirit. Without the water properly applied, they would not belong to Jesus. Without The Holy Spirit inside, they are still led by their minds and carnal/fleshly.

Everything has it's place in scripture, and yes, GOD is particular about it.

Indeed, for this reason when a Christian is baptized in a liturgical church they are insufflated with the Holy Spirit, and in Orthodoxy Chrismation is applied immediately, as the seal of the Holy Spirit, so that in this manner anyone we baptize can be said to definitely have been baptized in the Jordan with Christ, receiving the Holy Spirit, and likewise since we immediately give the Eucharist even to infants, they have in communion with our Lord at the Last Supper received His blood, together with the Holy Apostles and all the faithful.

Interestingly in 1 John 5:7-9, there is not only an exquisite reference to sacramental theology which references the Baptism of our Lord in the four Gospels but also the Eucharist, which our Lord described in John ch. 6, and later instituted in the narratives found in the Synoptics and 1 Corinthians, and additionally there is also a Trinitarian reference which is clear even if one has a Bible lacking the Comma Johanneum.
 
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The Liturgist

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They told me that baptism doesn't mean you're saved and it lack of it doesn't mean not saved.

If you had asked the Orthodox, we would have said that if you had died before being baptized but seeking baptism, it would not preclude your salvation (which is why catechumens receive Orthodox funerals) and if you had been martyred for your faith, that is the Baptism of Blood, by which a great many martyrs have been saved (for dying for Christ is not a work but an absolute declaration of faith, for example, when the Ghanaian man was martyred with the 18 Coptic Orthodox Christians in 2014 by ISIS in Libya, he became instantly venerated as a saint despite no knowledge of whether or not he was baptized (and even if he was, there’s a good chance the Copts would have received him by baptism anyway, since among Oriental Orthodox Christians the Coptic Orthodox are the strictest concerning observing the precise Trinitarian formula, triple immersion and so on).
 
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The Liturgist

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Depends on what is meant by "required". That may seem pedantic, but there is a world of difference between the historic Christian view on the one hand: that Holy Baptism is a precious Sacrament which Christ instituted through which God acts and works to bring us from death to life by placing us in Christ, working faith in our hearts, and giving us the foundation of our walk with God by faith by the Spirit; and the view of certain sectarian groups which present Baptism as a work, another notch we must mark in order to earn salvation from God. Every mainstream, historic Church confesses the necessity of Baptism and that Baptism is salvific--a rejection of this view exists only among certain Protestant traditions of the past few centuries who view Baptism either as a covenantal sign or as a symbolic act of obedience. So when I say it depends on what is meant by "required" is this: The historic Christian confession is that Baptism is required because Christ specifically commands His Church to make disciples, baptizing them; and Scripture attaches God's promises to this Sacrament and these promises convey salvific reality: forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), being buried, dead, and raised with Christ (Romans 6:1-3), being clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27), and that it saves (1 Peter 3:21); not on account of it being a work of righteousness we do in order to win something from God (an ordinance) but on account of it being God's own gracious action toward us (a Sacrament). Baptism is not required in the sense that if a person happens to not receive Baptism then they cannot be saved, otherwise we would be speaking damnation for all the many martyrs who died before receiving Baptism, and that would be wickedness to speak in such a way of such beloved saints of God. So a church that treats baptism as a human work required in order to flip on a magic "saved" switch teach falsely; but the historic faith of God's Church has always been the biblical teaching that Baptism is a precious Sacramental means of grace through which God brings us into Christ and, in Christ, His Church.

Unfortunately these two diametrically opposite views are often confused together in certain polemical teachings.

As a Lutheran I believe, quite strongly, that Baptism is necessary. Scripture tells us plainly what Baptism is and what Baptism does, and receiving this gift of Baptism is not an act of symbolic obedience but is a profound act and work of God by His Spirit, whereby God's word is brought together with ordinary water and God does something for us. Namely: All the promises we can find in the plain text of Holy Scripture. This does not, however, mean all unbaptized persons are un-saved; because that's simply untrue. God works through His Means of Word and Sacrament, that means hearing the word is also a Means of Grace--a divine action by which God's word comes to us, united in the ordinary preaching of a minister of the Gospel. It's not the words of a man that saves us, it's the word of God (Romans 10:17); it's not water that saves us, it's the word of God (Ephesians 5:26, 1 Peter 3:21), etc. And yet God has chosen that His word be united to mundane things: preaching, water, bread and wine. So to pretend as though the water doesn't matter when God says it does; or to pretend the preaching of the word doesn't matter when God says it does, etc is in violation with God has given and revealed. So while water does not save, when God unites His word with water, and we have this precious sacred thing--Baptism--then we can trust in what God has promised here in His gift, in this sacred thing God does and gives. So when we read that we are born again "by water and the Spirit" in John 3:5 we can trust the Lord who tells us this: it's not either water or Spirit, it's water and the Spirit because the Holy Spirit is Himself living and active and at work here.

Consider the many times, throughout the Bible, where God uses ordinary things to accomplish His extraordinary purposes. Jesus took dirt and spit and placed it on the eyes of a blind man and the man was healed of His blindness. Does dirt and spit heal blindness? Of course not--and yet here ordinary dirt, mere spit, are brought together with Christ's word to heal blindness and the man gained his sight. God works through the completely ordinary. He always has.

He didn't ordain angels to be His witnesses to all nations, He ordained a group of uneducated fishermen, a lowly tax-collector, rebels, and nobodies. He didn't even choose special people, He chose ordinary people. God has always used the ordinary to accomplish His extraordinary works. Recall even with the ancient Prophets, like Elijah--it was not in the earthquake, the thunder, or the howling winds that God was found--but in the still tiny whisper. God used Moses, a man who himself said he was bad at speaking in order to proclaim His wonders to Egypt. God didn't call a king from Ur, but a pastoralist named Abram and Sarai his barren wife. God always takes the lowly and makes it lofty.

This is an elegant post and I thank you for it.
 
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Dan Perez

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Baptism, if done with the correct Trinitarian formula, is a means of grace. It’s what God does for us.

That’s what I meant.
And it seems all churches have there form of BAPTISM,,

In. Mattv 27:19 then. they. were to baptized in. the name of the FATHER and off. the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT

And that is why PAUL could NOT BAPTIZE in 1 Cor 1:15 LEST. // ME is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE

is why PAUL could NEVERRRR EVER BAPTIZED ANYONE EVRRRRR

that Paul can NEVER SAY I BAPTIZE. YOU IN. THE NAME OF PAUL

And in ACTS 1:5 WATER BAPTISM. was replaced by HOLY SPIRIT BAPRISM

dab p
 
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DragonFox91

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I don't think infant baptism is really baptism, & I think many real Christians were infant baptized but never actually get baptized the way they should, so I don't think a real Christian can be damned for not being baptized. Just like it's possible to be 'baptized' & be damned
 
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RileyG

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And it seems all churches have there form of BAPTISM,,

In. Mattv 27:19 then. they. were to baptized in. the name of the FATHER and off. the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT

And that is why PAUL could NOT BAPTIZE in 1 Cor 1:15 LEST. // ME is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE

is why PAUL could NEVERRRR EVER BAPTIZED ANYONE EVRRRRR

that Paul can NEVER SAY I BAPTIZE. YOU IN. THE NAME OF PAUL

And in ACTS 1:5 WATER BAPTISM. was replaced by HOLY SPIRIT BAPRISM

dab p
I’m a bit confused.
 
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Dan Perez

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Baptism, if done with the correct Trinitarian formula, is a means of grace. It’s what God does for us.

That’s what I meant.
And do. you. have verse that explains that position ??

dan p
 
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