my eclectic view of futurism

I was raised in a Lutheran Protestant household that lacked all of the contemporary interest in future prophecy. Nevertheless, we as a family noticed something significant, prophetically, in 1967 with the 7 Days War. And I began to study biblical prophecy and the book of Revelation.

When I became engaged with the Jesus People and young Christian revival movements in the early 70s, there was a focus on Dispensationalism, and I pursued an interest in Futurist eschatology with a Dispensationalist slant. But it wasn't long before a number of inconsistencies became obvious to me, and I had trouble harmonizing all of the beliefs.

I then turned to a systematic approach to prophetic interpretation, looking for significant markers in biblical history where certain truths became determinative in all that followed. For example, important prophetic markers would be Abraham's Covenant promises and Daniel's Dream. What resides in these events provide an important backdrop for the rest of biblical prophecy.

And instead of following a particular prophetic school I became convinced that even if one school is better than another it was likely that other schools were held together by a few strands of important prophetic truths. I wasn't going to let a flawed school keep me from accepting something they saw and others rejected strictly because their truths came from another, flawed school.

Dispensationalism has carried most of the weight in building assumptions surrounding various interpretations of relevant passages of the Bible. It views the 70th Week of Daniel 9 as future and disconnected from the previous 69 Weeks mentioned there. And it views the "Abomination of Desolation," mentioned in both Dan 9 and Matt 24, as a reference to the Antichrist.

The Book of Revelation was looked at by Dispensationalists as separated into two parts, the present Church Age and the final 7 years of Antichristian rule. The Church would be Raptured just before the rise of Antichrist, coinciding with John's Rapture to Heaven to see his visions. What followed would be 7 years of Antichristian rule prior to the Battle of Armageddon and Christ's 2nd Coming.

Dispensationalists typically view Postribulationists as anachronistic to Futurist belief, even though many of them are Futurists. And they view Preterists as antithetical to Futurism, even though some of their beliefs can be held to by Futurists. For example, the belief by Preterists that much of the Olivet Discourse is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD can be held to along with Futurist beliefs.

So, this is where I've come out. I believe the 70th Week of Daniel was fulfilled at the death of Christ. And I believe the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled when the Roman Army defeated Jerusalem in 70 AD. I'm also a Postribulationist who believes in a future 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist with the Church being Raptured at the end of this period. And I believe the Olivet Discourse was focused primarily on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, with the Roman Army being the Abomination of Desolation, and this event taking place literally in Jesus' generation, followed by a long age of Jewish exile, also called the "Great Tribulation."

I believe though discussion of the various issues sometimes leads to "bad blood," approaching the differences in a friendly way can have a positive effect. After all, we are pursuing Scriptural truth, which God gave to us for our edification. So I invite any and all takers on the issues I've raised?

keras said:

Douggg and I have batted the Prophetic Word around for years. He has not changed his stance and neither have I.
Other than a reference to the end time Anti-Christ and John 4:1, which does not prove a rapture of Christians, Douggg does not prove his points with scripture.
Here is my understanding of what will happen, supported by many scriptures. Anyone who thinks I have used a verse in the wrong context, please show me, I do not claim to know it all.

The enemies of the Lord gather - Micah 4:11-12, Ezekiel 36:2
They conspire to attack Israel - Psalms 83:1-8, Isaiah 21:2
They prepare their weapons - Psalms 7:12, Ezekiel 7:14
This is the situation today.

At the moment of attack, God will use His Creation, the sun to send fire; the entire energy wave spectrum.- Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-43, Isaiah 30:26 & 30, Psalms 11:4-6, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5 , Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:12-17

The sun will explode with an extremely bright flash and the moon will reflect bright red - Isaiah 30:26, Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Habakkuk 3:4-5

The Lord will make their weapons recoil upon themselves, the Electro-Magnetic Pulse hit will cause them to explode - Psalms 7:13-16, Joel 3:4, Obadiah 15

Then the sun, moon and stars will be obscured by the approaching Coronal Mass Ejection - Psalms 18:11-12, Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 32:7-8, Amos 8:9, Joel 2:1-2

A huge superhot mass of hydrogen plasma approaches the earth – Joel 1:15-20, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 1:14-18

Everyone on earth will be shocked and terrified - Jeremiah 6:24-26, Ezekiel 21:5-7a, Isaiah 13:6-8, Revelation 6:15-17

The atmosphere will be pushed aside – Revelation 6:14, 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 34:4

The whole earth will be enveloped by fire - Isaiah 66:15, Zeph. 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7

In the Holy Land, only a remnant will survive - Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13

He will punish His enemies, the attackers of Israel- Psalms 83, Isaiah 63:1-6, Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 14 18-20, Isaiah 66:17, Isaiah 29:20-21, Hebrews 10:27

His enemies will become ashes - Malachi 4:3, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 49:2, Matthew 3:12b

Millions will die around the world - Psalms 97:3-5, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 13:12

The Lord will protect those who call to Him - Isaiah 43:2, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

But many people will take shelter until it passes. Isaiah 2:19, Revelation 6:15

The survivors will form a One World Govt. - Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 17:12

The Holy Land will be regenerated - Ezekiel 36:8, Joel 2:21-24, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Jeremiah 33:12-14

And the Lord's faithful Christian peoples will gather there. - Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9-14

They will become the new nation of Beulah - Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 36:3-38, Jeremiah 31

They will build a new Temple – Zechariah 6:15, Haggai 2:9, Ezekiel 40 to 48

An attack by a Northern army will be won by the Lord – Ezekiel 38:22, Joel 2:20

The leaders of Beulah will break the Covenant with the Lord and sign a 7 year peace treaty with the leader of the O.W.G. Daniel 9:27, Isaiah 28:14-15

At the midpoint he will break the treaty and conquer Beulah-Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2

Commencing the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation - Rev 8:2 to Rev 19:10

Those who kept their faith in God will be taken to a safe place on earth. Daniel 11:32b, Revelation 12:14 The ’many’ who agreed to this 7 year Treaty, must remain. Revelation 12:17

3.5 years later, Jesus will Return in His glory, for His Millennial reign - Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-4

The Lord has told us His plans and He will not relent or change them - Jeremiah 4:28
There are plenty more prophecies and scriptures to prove this scenario.
Believe it or not it’s up to everyone to decide! Psalms 19:11-12, Isaiah 48:6

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My problem with your scenario is that you seem to think the Scriptures comprise a puzzle which the shrewd person can piece together and come up with a last day series of events. In reality, many of these prophecies, far from being specific, are largely intended to provide a picture of God's character, in Salvation and in Judgment. Why on earth would there be some mystical insight into the last generation when all previous generations are equally important?

In fact, I think that much of what the book of Revelation says about the last generation is intended to inform Christians all during the ages because they go through similar things. While it's true that we can look back and see many prophecies that provided pieces of the Messiah's life, nobody really used them to anticipate him as by a crystal ball or secret code. They were designed to help the generations in which these prophecies were given because they went through similar experiences. And they were designed to confirm who Christ was after he had come.

I don't put much stock in trying to predict the future. If we know God today we'll have a good bead on where history is going. And the prophecies of Revelation will confirm this when the time comes. In the meantime we should recognize how these prophecies can help us today. That's my view, and I'm sticking with it.

keras said:

Because Jesus said:- The generation that sees the fig tree bud, that is; the Jews back as a nation in the Holy Land, THEY will see it all. Matthew 24:32-22
WE are that generation.

I view your policy of chewing over the Prophesies and making them into unintelligible mush, as a crime against the Prophets. It simply leaves people in the dark.

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"Criminal?" Well, I suppose you think that's a real Christian way of discussing differences? Such desperation does not suggest reasonable thought about what the Prophets meant.

The "generation" Jesus spoke of I believe referred to his own generation. He was warning about the utter annihilation of the Temple. All the signs preceeding that, and the annihilation itself, did take place in his generation.

Jesus was warning about an immediate need--not making predictions about the future in order to glorify the prophets who were able to "hear from God."

keras said:

Judah is the fig tree and Israel is the vine. The Biblical metaphors for todays Jewish State of Israel and the ten Northern tribes, still scattered around the world. Note that Jesus said Judah would bud and break into leaf, but not to bear fruit. We Christians are the Vine; are the peoples who bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 21:43
It is simply impossible to make the first Century people fit Matthew 24:32-34

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Actually it's impossible to state, positively, that the "fig tree" in this context means "Israel." In context we are told that the budding of the fig tree refers to signs of the imminent destruction of the Temple. Stating your own opinion is not the same as what the Bible states.

Douggg said:

The fig tree in the parable of the fig tree is Jerusalem. Jesus cursed a fig tree beside the road, for not having fruit, as He and the disciples were about to enter Jerusalem the week He would be crucified. Matthew 21:18-20.

Jerusalem came back into the possession of the Jews in 1967.

1967 + 70 years for a generation = 2037 the not later than year for Jesus's return.

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This is an outdatedd Hal Lindsey-like failed prophecy that Christ would return within 40 years of 1948. We are not told that the "fig tree" is Israel. WE are explicitly told that it represents something else, the budding signs leading to Israel's destruction. So they are "budding signs," and not 'Israel." The Bible is true. You are adding in your own beliefs.

Douggg said:

Randy, I don't recall what Hal Lindsey's understanding of what the parable of the fig tree generation was.

But there was a thinking that Israel represented the fig tree, based on a verse in the bible in Joel 1:7 about barking my (God's) fig tree. So using 1948, Israel a nation again, as the basis for the generation, there was a 40 years/generation added to it, based on how long the children of Israel were in the exodus out of Egypt.

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It's been popular in Dispensationalist circles to believe and to teach that the "fig tree represents Israel." The Prophets certainly have used the fig tree in application to Israel just as they may have used a rock in application to God. That doesn't mean all fig trees represent Israel nor that all rocks represent God!

The point I wished to make is that in this particular context, we are not told that the fig tree represents the restoration of national Israel--not in the least. Stating that as fact is, in my opinion, unbiblical and wrong. It is forcing into the text something that is neither said nor hinted at.

Douggg said:

When that combination of 1948 + 40 years/generation = 1988 did not work out......the next reasoning became 1948 + 70 years/generation = 2018. Since that did not work out either, Israel being the fig tree was no longer a possibility.

Thus, the understanding of Jerusalem being the fig tree. And 1967 as the base year when the Jews regained control of Jerusalem.

That is the current understanding and is still valid. 1967 + 70 years/generation = 2037 as the not later than year that Jesus will return by.

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It is "valid" only in the sense that it pushes these predictions of a "single generation" farther into the future. But again, if your argument is premised on a false biblical interpretation then it isn't valid at all.

The Bble uses the fig tree as an analogy or metaphor for expressing preliminary signs to a season coming to be. The explicitly-stated signs of wars, rumors of wars, lawlessness, natural disasters, etc. are what presage the coming of a season of definitive, comprehensive judgment against the city of Jerusalem. It has nothing at all to do with the rebirth of the modern state of Israel!

Douggg said:

If we subtract 7 years from 2037, the Ezekiel 38-39 Gog/Magog attack on Israel should take place before the end of 2030.

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All of your interest seems inspired by an interest in making calculated predictions--something that Jesus seemed to discourage. I don't see anything wrong with watching history evolve along prophetic lines, particularly as we reach the end. But calculating dates should be relegated to those who are disinterested in Jesus' warning not to do such things.

Douggg said:

The 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the Gog/Magog attack correspond to the 7 years of Daniel 9:27. Ezekiel 39:17-20 at the end those 7 years is the feast on the dead bodies, corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18. Read those two passages.

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Gog and Magog and Rev 19.17-18 may be related to the same event. But it doesn't mean the 7 years in Eze 39 have anything to do with an imagined 7 year period in the book of Revelation.

Douggg said:

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth. Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31.

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I agree that Eze 39.28 refers to the gathering of Israel, which is also mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. But Paul seems to unite the concept of a heavenly gathering with an earthly gathering. Seeing a correspondence between Eze 39 and Mat 24 doesn't prove anything about the fig tree being Israel's modern restoration or the capture of Jerusalem in 67.

Douggg said:

No, Jesus said "learn" a parable of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

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Jesus said "Learn from the fig tree parable," but he also discouraged predicting "times and seasons." So, I'm suggesting you revisit your interpretation of "learn from the fig tree," because it seems to contradict Jesus.

Jesus was, I believe, speaking of his own time, and of an immediate need to address moral needs. But you, by contrast, are trying to make predictions about the eschatological future, whcih goes far beyond our current moral needs.

Douggg said:

Matthew 24:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation that shall not pass without witnessing Jesus return is that of the parable of the fig tree.


No, Jesus was speaking about the forthcoming great tribulation, what them in Judaea should do, and about His return.

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This is why you and others will never get it right, I feel. You impose what you want the language to be saying when it is impossible that that is what the language is actdually saying. Language is a flexible vehicle, and means what the speaker, writer, or context requires of it. In this context, Jesus is speaking of his own generation, as indicated by earlier use of the same language. And he specifically listed things, all of which pertained to the main subject--the destruction of the temple.

So Jesus' Coming, though mentioned in the conversation, is not one of the things that pertained to the fall of Jerusalem or the destruction of the temple. No, "all these things" cannot include Jesus' coming. That would be entirely inconsistent with the context, which is specifically giving Jesus' disciples *at that time* signs that presage the imminent fall of Jerusalem.

Sorry, but we have to strongly disagree on this one. This is why futurists get this wrong, and it is an unfortunate product of Dispensationalist thinking. Even those who are not Dispensationalists have been tainted by it. And men like Hal Lindsey have so popularized it that others cannot be objective when they read this passage.

They don't seem to realize that it *makes no sense* projecting the generation Jesus spoke of off into the distant future to become the "last generation," applying strangely to a rebuilt Israeli State. That is completely strange to the context, and you yourself do not seem to realize it. Oh well...

Douggg said:

Randy, Matthew 24 is taking place on the mount of Olives. Matthew 24:3.

Here is the question that the disciples asked on the mount of Olives...

Matthew 243 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

That's the context for the response Jesus gave in the rest of Matthew 24. The destruction of the temple and his second coming.

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Jesus began to tell his disciples about the fall of the Temple initially in the Temple area. Then he walked outside the Temple area and on up to the top of Mt. Olivet. I've made the trip myself--it's not a long walk.

On the top of the mountain Jesus' disciples asked for more information on the subject of the fall of the Temple, and indicated that their confusion concerned his coming in his Kingdom. If he had come to bring his Kingdom how can he say that the Temple would be destroyed? This was their dillemma--it was not a question seeking a prophetic calendar of future events. It was a heart-rending inquiry as to why Israel must suffer when their Messiah was in their midst?

So, Jesus stuck with his original statement that the Temple would fall, to be preceded by some warning signs, indicating that Israel was not yet ready for the Kingdom of God. They would instead come under judgment for rejecting their Messiah. They would follow false Messiahs. Other signs indicated God was unhappy with people in the region, including earthquakes and various disasters. Most significant of all were rumors of Roman wars nearby, and the threat they would bring as they approached, because Israel was in rebellion against their authority.

So *all these things,* ie the signs of imminent destruction in Jerusalem, would happen in their generation--not the 2nd Coming. Jesus treated that subject differently because he was explaining to his disciples that they had a false connection between the events of their day and the future coming of the Kingdom. The Kingdom would be far off, following the preaching of the Gospel to all nations and the exile of Jews into many nations. These things take a long time. But the Roman judgment was fairly imminent, and required immediate attention.