What does Genesis 6:4 Actually Say?

BelieveItOarKnot · Jan 9, 2026

The issue with this particular slant subject matter starts with the understanding that "fallen angels" were once HOLY.

I'd merely point out that Satan is never termed HOLY in the scriptures. Not once.

So, is Satan a "fallen HOLY angel?" No. Why not? Because that is never stated to be the case with Satan or his messengers.

So there are no once HOLY fallen angels. That is where this particular fairy tale of giant sons of God fallen angels mating with human people starts. It's a fairy tale that doesn't actually exist in the scriptures.

Some will immediately run to Ezek. 28:14 that shows that the "covering cherub" was perfect, but the kicker is "in thy ways." A perfect DEVIL is a devil nevertheless.

Jesus tells us openly in John 8:44 that the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

Putting aside the fairy tale of once HOLY then fallen "angels" is where the fairy tale begins and giant nephelim/human hybrids which is an utter nonsense fairy tale, an even bigger fairy tale is what comes simply from a bad left turn at the fallen angels statements.

The term angel means messenger. It can apply to holy messengers or to fallen messengers. The term does never automatically equate to a HOLY angel. Satan has wicked/evil messenger CHILDREN. That would be demons. And these can even carry male or female designations, such as Jezebel. Satan also has a kingdom, Satan's kingdom.

None of these things of Satan or devils are openly visible. So there's an interesting place to start the contemplations. Where are Satan and devils shown in the scriptures to be located?

Primarily IN PEOPLE. A second nod to pigs for a short off the cliff spell. But Paul tells us all of creation suffers under bondage. That would be the bondage and the covering of Satan, our invisible opponent, and his own:

Romans 8:
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

We all have the infection.

Until now...indicates that the covers have been pulled off. Now you know better than to believe in fairy tales.

The giant we all engage is the Great Red Dragon.

Unseen. Yes, we are all in the battle, knowingly or unknowingly

We all start out this present life as CAPTIVES...

Some get an early look at their situation is all.

Paleouss · Jan 10, 2026

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I'd merely point out that Satan is never termed HOLY in the scriptures. Not once.

Greetings again BelieveItOarKnot. Peace to you and yours.

I'm wondering what your theological assertion is by saying the above. Taking what you exactly wrote, you claim that the exact word "Holy" is never used to describe or describe in past tense, Satan. To which you would be technically correct as far as I know. However, what is your theological position that you are trying to apply this possible insignificant assertion? Is it that you believe God created Satan evil to be evil?

I'm presuming your answer to my question is a hard, no. God did not create Satan evil, to be evil. If you do hold this view that I assume you don't, then we are far apart in our theology (and you paint God as a lier).

Regarding Satan created good
I am wondering how you see the devil being described as "fallen from heaven" (Isa 14:12) and being a “seal of perfection” (Eze 28:12) and he was “perfect in your ways from the day you were created” (Eze 28:15).

Regarding Satan being created in a state that would be described as holy, even though the word holy is not used. Without getting into a debate of what the word "holy" means. Being holy is the state of purity and sacredness that is a reflection of God's unique divine nature. If the devil is described as being “perfect in your ways from the day you were created” (Eze 28:15) then it reasons that he was at one time...holy, i.e., created in a reflection of God's nature.

Peace to you brother

BelieveItOarKnot · Jan 10, 2026

Paleouss said:
Greetings again BelieveItOarKnot. Peace to you and yours.

I'm wondering what your theological assertion is by saying the above. Taking what you exactly wrote, you claim that the exact word "Holy" is never used to describe or describe in past tense, Satan. To which you would be technically correct as far as I know.

That is the case bolstered by Jesus' statement in John 8:44

Paleouss said:
However, what is your theological position that you are trying to apply this possible insignificant assertion? Is it that you believe God created Satan evil to be evil?

God created all things without exceptions including the power of evil and bearer of same. Christianity does not make room for polytheism where agents or powers create themselves

Paleouss said:
I'm presuming your answer to my question is a hard, no. God did not create Satan evil, to be evil.

I'll point out the obvious, that just because God creates something or anything that does not make God the same as that which He created.

I'd also point out that God is far greater than anything He creates or even the sum of all creation

Paleouss said:
If you do hold this view that I assume you don't, then we are far apart in our theology (and you paint God as a lier).

We certainly have scripture showing God's use and deployment of lying spirits and also uses of deceptions and retributive evil. Citings readily available

Paleouss said:
Regarding Satan created good
I am wondering how you see the devil being described as "fallen from heaven" (Isa 14:12) and being a “seal of perfection” (Eze 28:12) and he was “perfect in your ways from the day you were created” (Eze 28:15).

Already addressed Satan being created perfect "in thy ways" which is essentially a perfect devil. Doesn't mean or equate to ever being good or holy

As to location we know the Kingdom of God is within us. Where do you think Satan is?

Where did Jesus show Satan to be? Should be obvious.

Paleouss said:
Regarding Satan being created in a state that would be described as holy, even though the word holy is not used. Without getting into a debate of what the word "holy" means. Being holy is the state of purity and sacredness that is a reflection of God's unique divine nature. If the devil is described as being “perfect in your ways from the day you were created” (Eze 28:15) then it reasons that he was at one time...holy, i.e., created in a reflection of God's nature.

Uh, no. And that would be in direct conflict with Jesus' statement in John 8:44 as well among other difficulties.

Some lunatic cults even try to make Satan God's son and Jesus' brother.

Paleouss · Jan 10, 2026

Greetings Ariel. Peace and hope to you sister. Sorry for the delay. Had some life issues to attend to.

It would appear our conversation has become a jumbled mess. So for the sake of returning to clarity, I have requoted my original statement regarding Jude 1:6 and the correct interpretation of ἀρχὴν. Since my interpretation of this word is not original...please address how it is wrong. Please use the biblical text and translations for each word ἀρχὴν and οἰκητήριον. Not simply, no it's not, or that doesn't mean that, please. I want you to demonstrate how I'm wrong in the exegesis.

Paleouss said:
First offense, the Greek word is ἀρχὴν, which is translated to “first estate” (KJV), “proper domain” (NKJ), “position of authority” (ESV). According to Strong’s (#G746)... ἀρχή from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

In other words, Jude, when stating that the angels “kept not their first estate”, is telling the reader that these fallen angels abandoned their original responsibility of authority that had been assigned by God. However, the second offense is not the same as the first.

Regarding condition number two, the Greek word is οἰκητήριον, it is translated “their own habitation” (KJV), “their own abode” (NKJ), “their proper dwelling” (ESV). This Greek word means, according to Strong’s (G3613)... οἰκητήριον
neuter of a presumed derivative of G3611 (equivalent to G3612); a residence (literally or figuratively): habitation, house.

In other words, in this second offense these angels left their own residence, habitation, or proper dwelling. This offense is not identical to the other offense found in Jude 1:6 of not keeping one’s post, or domain, or position of authority.

As an aside...I presented these verses and I don't remember you addressing them (or I missed it). I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

Paleouss said:
angels = spirits&demons (Heb 1:13-14,Matt 12:24-26,Eph 2:2,Psa 104:4,Num 27:16)
demons = spirits (Luke 10:17-20, Matt 8:16, Luke 9:39-42)

If the term angel is used synonymously with spirits and demons (it is)...and if the term demon is used synonymously with spirits (it is)...then angels are in fact the spirits and demons.

Peace to you sister

Paleouss · Jan 10, 2026

Thank you very much BeliveitOarKnot, I appreciate your response. Peace to you brother.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
That is the case bolsteted by Jesus' statement in John 8:44

You have made this very vague, quoting a verse but not addressing how the verse supports your position. I will attempt to guess since you have not left it very clear.

Let's look at John 8:44,

(John 8:44 NKJV) 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources], for he is a liar and the father of it.

I am guessing you are attempting to say that the words "He was a murderer from the beginning" means that Satan was a murderer from his creation. But this is not only an incorrect interpretation, it is biblically absurd also.

First regarding the biblical absurdity. (1) God created all things (John 1:3, Rev 4:11, Col 1:16); (2) Everything that God created was/is first good (Gen 1:31), for God does not have “pleasure in wickedness” (Psa 5:4). If EVERYTHING that God created was first good (Gen 1:31), then it is false to say that something God first created was evil. A wholly good God cannot logically "create" evil nor does the Holy Scripture even suggest He does.

Second regarding the quote. John is referring to man's beginning, as in Eden. John is making a reference that the Hebrew people would know about, i.e., to Genesis 3 and the fall. When else in the Holy Scriptures are we to reference when Satan killed someone? It was in man's beginning, the garden when Adam fell. Further, logically a person isn't a murderer until they actually murder someone or culpable for a murder.

Keep seeking God's truth

BelieveItOarKnot · Jan 11, 2026

Paleouss said:
Thank you very much BeliveitOarKnot, I appreciate your response. Peace to you brother.

You have made this very vague, quoting a verse but not addressing how the verse supports your position. I will attempt to guess since you have not left it very clear.

Let's look at John 8:44,

(John 8:44 NKJV) 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources], for he is a liar and the father of it.

I am guessing you are attempting to say that the words "He was a murderer from the beginning" means that Satan was a murderer from his creation. But this is not only an incorrect interpretation, it is biblically absurd also.

First regarding the biblical absurdity. (1) God created all things (John 1:3, Rev 4:11, Col 1:16); (2) Everything that God created was/is first good (Gen 1:31), for God does not have “pleasure in wickedness” (Psa 5:4). If EVERYTHING that God created was first good (Gen 1:31), then it is false to say that something God first created was evil. A wholly good God cannot logically "create" evil nor does the Holy Scripture even suggest He does.

Everything is only good because all of creation is in God's Hands, not because of any particular thing therein. The tempter was not good. Temptation was not good. The knowledge of evil was not good. Adam and Eve being stolen from and blinded by the tempter was not good. I could go on.

The only deciding factor is God's Hands, not the "things" therein.

Paleouss said:
Second regarding the quote. John is referring to man's beginning, as in Eden. John is making a reference that the Hebrew people would know about, i.e., to Genesis 3 and the fall. When else in the Holy Scriptures are we to reference when Satan killed someone? It was in man's beginning, the garden when Adam fell. Further, logically a person isn't a murderer until they actually murder someone or culpable for a murder.

Again you disregard evil lawless thoughts in the equations above and try to move the needle for Satan to make Satan into some holy thing or perhaps even a son of God.

No need to try any of that. Jesus said the devil was a lying murderer from the beginning. No qualifications are given or necessary. Jesus could have clarified another point in time such as when the change came but He didn't.

Satan was and is a perfect devil. And remains so.

Why give excuses for the devil?

Paleouss said:
Keep seeking God's truth

Most people who believe Satan was a Holy angel are freewillers so your position is merely spinning another freewiller slant that's short on justification in writing

Paleouss · Jan 11, 2026

Greeting BelieveItOarKnot. May God's truth be with us and Jesus Christ be glorified.

Paleouss said:
First regarding the biblical absurdity. (1) God created all things (John 1:3, Rev 4:11, Col 1:16); (2) Everything that God created was/is first good (Gen 1:31), for God does not have “pleasure in wickedness” (Psa 5:4).

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Everything is only good because all of creation is in God's Hands, not because of any particular thing therein. The tempter was not good. Temptation was not good. The knowledge of evil was not good. Adam and Eve being stolen from and blinded by the tempter was not good. I could go on.

The only deciding factor is God's Hands, not the "things" therein.

Notice everything you responded with is your conclusions without any reference to God's word. You blatantly ignore the fact that after the 6th day of creation God said, "indeed it is very good" and try to excuse it away by clear unreasonable logic that its good because all creation is in "God's hands" (which makes no sense if used in the verse or context of the verse).

You then go on to give examples like "the tempter was not good", the "knowledge of evil was not good", and "Adam and Even being stolen from the blinded by the tempter was not good" and simply ignore the fact that all your examples come AFTER the 6th day of creation verse in Genesis 1:31.

Facts:
(1) Genesis 1:31 comes before any of your examples.
(2) Genesis 1:31 explicitly states (explicitly means directly word-for-word), "indeed it was very good" (Gen 1:31).

Therefore, everything that was created by the 6th day was "very good" (Gen 1:31) according to God. Full stop. You can't reason your way around this fact other than simply ignoring it.

Since we have a verse that explicitly makes the truth claim that everything that was created by the 6th day was very good. Then the burden is on you to show verses (or even a single verse) that says that Satan was created evil first. But the problem is that even if we find one (we won't) the fact still remains that we have a verse that says that everything that was created by the 6th day was "very good".

Now, you did try and provide a verse which was John 8:44. But I presented the proper interpretation, and this is the important part, it is in congruence with the truth claim we already know is true, i.e., that everything was created "very good" (Gen 1:31) by the 6th day of creation. My exegesis of John 8:44 fits perfectly with Genesis 1:31.

Your next step should have been to do an exegesis of John 8:44 and its context to attempt to show that I was wrong in my interpretation (as I had done). But instead you wrote...

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Again you disregard evil lawless thoughts in the equations above and try to move the needle for Satan to make Satan into some holy thing or perhaps even a son of God.

No need to try any of that. Jesus said the devil was a lying murderer from the beginning. No qualifications are given or necessary. Jesus could have clarified another point in time such as when the change came but He didn't.

I don't disregard the "evil lawless thoughts in the equation" because they came AFTER the 6th day and therefore have nothing to do with the debate. Please stop providing examples as evidence that come AFTER the Genesis 1:31 verse.

The only proper attempt at evidence you have provided in the last two posts is the John 8:44 verse. The problem for you is that (1) John 8:44 doesn't mean what you want it to mean (I showed that), and (2) you still have a problem with Genesis 1:31 which is clear and explicit.

Because of Genesis 1:31 being so explicit, it then clears up, and helps us understand more clearly, what other verses about the devil are saying when they say he was a “seal of perfection” (Eze 28:12) and he was “perfect in your ways from the day you were created” (Eze 28:15). These verses speak to the devil being created "very good" (Genesis 1:31) in the beginning as Genesis 1:31 explicitly tells us.

May God's truth destroy our walls and show the way.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jan 11, 2026

Paleouss said:
Notice everything you responded with is your conclusions without any reference to God's word.

I expect those who engage to remember previous scripture citings and not have to repeat them.

In any case you've disregarded Jesus' statements of fact on this specific matter of Satan being WHAT exactly?

Are you claiming Satan was once a HOLY ANGEL? A "son of God?"

You could make your position clearer.

Paleouss said:
Since we have a verse that explicitly makes the truth claim that everything that was created by the 6th day was very good.

That's just YOU trying to exclude God's Over riding Hands and Control on everything and only seeing the "things."

I've already provided several items that were NOT GOOD. Why didn't you engage those?

Paleouss said:
was John 8:44. But I presented the proper interpretation

Well, you see, your interpretation is the exact problem. Jesus' statements of fact are not in need modifications that change the fact into what you think. Jesus said the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. That's the end of that matter. Throwing up multiple beginnings was NOT done by Jesus but is done by your interpreting.

Paleouss said:
I don't disregard the "evil lawless thoughts in the equation" because they came AFTER the 6th day

No, the evil lawless thoughts transpired in the Garden. In fact they transpired immediately after God's Word was delivered to Adam, ala Mark 4:15. MARK 4:15 happened to Adam. Deny it at your own loss. You probably don't believe it happens to you and I as well. I know better.

Instead you try to postpone the timing of God's Words to YOUR liking to fit YOUR interpretations and YOUR doctrines.
I have no need of such measures. Jesus said where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to STEAL.

There is no "timing" required. We can easily see the results in both Adam and Eve prior to them eating the infamous fruit so that is automatic evidence that Mark 7:21-23 was VALID for Adam and Eve as well, NO TIMING required.

You probably have another fairy tale in play that the garden was some kind of nirvana until they actually did an external sin which is yet another FALSE narrative. They both had evil lawless thoughts that eventually resulted in evil lawless acts courtesy of the DEVIL who deceived them both INTERNALLY. They were both planted in weakness, dishonor and corruption, exactly as Paul stated in 1 Cor. 15:42-46

You may even have another fairy tale in your system that the serpent was some physical snake in a physical tree and that is yet another false sight of literalist only reading.

Literalism only doesn't work when engaging our unseen adversary. Your positions don't seem able to grasp that this is the case. The adversary was in play WITHIN them both.

Paleouss said:
he was “perfect in your ways

Exactly. A perfect devil nevertheless. You seem to be trying to equate that kind of perfect to God perfect and it's not going to cut it.

Hey, Satan does want to be God, don't he? Oh well. It's snaky territory if your positions can't nail down the culprit accurately, trying to make the adversary something other than a perfect adversary

And fwiw, sons of God still mate with human women and have giants. It pertains to all of us. We ALL have SIN and SIN is of the GREAT RED DRAGON

JulieB67 · Jan 11, 2026

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Already addressed Satan being created perfect "in thy ways" which is essentially a perfect devil.

He was perfect in his ways (without spot or blemish, undefiled in the Hebrew) till iniquity was found in him. Meaning he was no longer perfect in his ways after that. His heart lifted (pride) because of his beauty.

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

No amount of spin you produce can change this fact.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jan 11, 2026

JulieB67 said:
He was perfect in his ways (without spot or blemish, undefiled in the Hebrew) till iniquity was found in him. Meaning he was no longer perfect in his ways after that. His heart lifted (pride) because of his beauty.

Almost sounds like you want to put Satan on equal footing with Jesus, without spot or blemish.

I can only hope you're not serious.

"In thy ways" remains the kicker. Still means a perfect devil. I wouldn't get hung up too far on perfect without seeing who it's applied to.

A perfect man is not the same as a perfect horse or a perfect devil for that matter.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Jan 13, 2026

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Everything is only good because all of creation is in God's Hands, not because of any particular thing therein. The tempter was not good. Temptation was not good. The knowledge of evil was not good. Adam and Eve being stolen from and blinded by the tempter was not good. I could go on.

The only deciding factor is God's Hands, not the "things" therein.

Always enjoy reading your post brother because you always give me something to consider … Could you develop your thoughts a bit more concerning the above highlighted statement? I guess I understand the anthropomorphic use of “God’s hands” concerning creation but lose my footing on the “not the “things” therein” part.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Again you disregard evil lawless thoughts in the equations above and try to move the needle for Satan to make Satan into some holy thing or perhaps even a son of God.

No need to try any of that. Jesus said the devil was a lying murderer from the beginning.

Almost comes across as if man didn’t just “fall” but rather, that the entirety of the human race in Adam was murdered with a lie. Just a passing thought I never had before, concerning the wording highlighted above as I was reading the thread. I guess I always took the “from the beginning part” to mean the beginning of the creation of Adam since that is to whom Jesus was speaking.

”The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”“
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

BelieveItOarKnot said:
No qualifications are given or necessary. Jesus could have clarified another point in time such as when the change came but He didn't.

Satan was and is a perfect devil. And remains so.

Why give excuses for the devil?

Most people who believe Satan was a Holy angel are freewillers so your position is merely spinning another freewiller slant that's short on justification in writing

Be blessed …

BelieveItOarKnot · Wednesday at 5:33 AM

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
I guess I understand the anthropomorphic use of “God’s hands” concerning creation but lose my footing on the “not the “things” therein” part.

It's primarily an argument or observation against separating God from the "things" in His creation.

For example, free will doctrines attempt to separate man from God in order to condemn or justify the persons based on their decisions.

A similar play is involved with blaming Adam and Eve for sin/the infamous fall. Was God not involved? Was the devil not involved? Of course they were both engaged as well. So, why blame Adam and Eve? It makes no logical sense. These things do not transpire outside of Divine Providence or even less, apart from involvement of same. The freewill postures presume that if God made the power of evil (he did) then that makes God evil. But the reality is God can and does create and that does not make God that which He created. He is quite simply greater than any particular thing in creation or even the sum of everything in creation. He remains greater, period. Fully able to use things like sin, evil and death, make these things SERVE Him for Perfect Purposes.

As it pertains to this particular thread, people read "sons of God" mating with women and coming up with nephelim as some sort of demonic breeding angels having human half breeds, which to me is utter nonsense. But people get suckered into such things because they don't pay attention to the narratives and look for sensationalism where none is required. The devil, the serpent is the Great Red Dragon. How much more giant do we need to find? It's a spiritual observation, this one of giants "in" the earth. What earth are these giants in? Mankind. Our dust bodies. A single man for example holding a LEGION of them.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Almost comes across as if man didn’t just “fall” but rather, that the entirety of the human race in Adam was murdered with a lie. Just a passing thought I never had before, concerning the wording highlighted above as I was reading the thread. I guess I always took the “from the beginning part” to mean the beginning of the creation of Adam since that is to whom Jesus was speaking.

This gets into more interesting territory. I believe we all existed in God in some form or fashion prior to our arrival here, so there's that, Eccl. 12:7. It's part of the basis of understanding that all people are God's children.

From the beginning God separated light from the darkness. I consider that not merely a physical matter, but a spiritual one as well. He then placed "us" all into that darkness, Phil. 2:15

We were placed in that giant, or his own, in our own dust bodies. And I'd consider that there is a lot of trials and testings of various matters transpiring therein, wherein we all do God's Service one way or another, or more accurately in ways both good and evil.

Believers for the most part consider themselves as apart from the evil quotient and not engaged internally with the adversary. I'd suggest it's just another form of sleep imposed by our adversary. The giant "in the earth."

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