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At Pentagon Christmas Service, Franklin Graham Praises ‘God of War’ “We know that God loves. But did you know that God also hates?"

DaisyDay

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Im sure it has been explained to you that the reference is to murder. Not killing in general.
Sure, it's not murder when God/the military/the government does it. Killing people in general is murder except when God, the government/military or someone I like does it. Yeah, it's been explained and excused.

Once again the NT command to love everyone including your enemy would include protecting the innocent. Allowing an evil peraon to harm an innocent is not love. Why is it that loving only applies to the evil ones and not the innocent ones? Why don't you care about the innocent and only care about the evil doer?
Who has said it does? Certainly not I. Who are you to tell me that I don't care about "the innocent"? Why don't you not tell falsehoods about me?

Once again Jesus commands are for YOU and you alone. Not once did Jesus forbid you from protecting someone else? I think it's entirely within the realm of love to protect others from evil doers.
He neither forbid nor commanded ME to protect someone else. He told ME that this world is of little concern compared to the kingdom to come. When I protect or seek to protect others, it is by MY own volition, my own free will.

Do you actually think that if you came upon a woman being raped and murdered that Christ commanded you to walk away and let it happen? All becauae you need to show love to the homicidal rapist?
What is it with you guys who focus on women getting raped all the time? It is horrific whether it happens to a man, a woman or a child, imo. Does stopping rape and murder necessitate killing? You imply that this is the only way. You also are implying that this would be how I show love - do you believe that? No, this is a deflection from my actual point to make this all about some terribly distorted version of me.


And as I recall, Lot offering his daughters up to be raped and murdered in lieu of the strangers was considered so virtuous that he was spared from destruction.
 
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durangodawood

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.....Instead of focusing on their faith journey, literalists are forced to constantly defend every part of scripture as being inerrant - which is a very difficult task. Having the "right beliefs" is prioritized over everything else. These actions and relentless defense of the inerrancy of the bible are sold as faith, when in practice they don't appear to be the life-giving faith which we know that God and spirituality can provide......
I dont understand the obsession with error vs perfection.

Seems to me the question should be applicability: the different ways that the various books should be understood. Which books describe a whole peoples evolving understanding of God. Which invite an individual relationship with God. Which are instructions for running a church. And so on.

That said, if inerrancy remains crucial - so to speak - for faith, then theres trouble ahead. It seems highly likely that certain aspects of the Bible result from purely human decision making.
 
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I dont understand the obsession with error vs perfection.

Seems to me the question should be applicability: the different ways that the various books should be understood. Which books describe a whole peoples evolving understanding of God. Which invite an individual relationship with God. Which are instructions for running a church. And so on.

That said, if inerrancy remains crucial - so to speak - for faith, then theres trouble ahead. It seems highly likely that certain aspects of the Bible result from purely human decision making.
It's a question of whether you accept the Bible because you have faith in Christ, or you have faith in Christ because you read about it in the Bible.
 
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durangodawood

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It's a question of whether you accept the Bible because you have faith in Christ, or you have faith in Christ because you read about it in the Bible.
Interesting. A lot of people say the Bible is the sole gateway to knowing Jesus.

Im not a Christian tho. This is all just how it seems to me from the outside.
 
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rjs330

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One of the ways in which this fear is subdued is by holding up scripture as inerrant. It provides something which literalists believe to be solid and indisputable. Despite the complexities of scripture, the literalist/fundamentalist believes there is only one interpretation - and it is the interpretation which they just happen to possess.

First of all there is no fear. That's kind of a silly thing to claim. You completely misunderstand the issue and the position. I don't know what you mean by the complexities of scripture. Are the scriptures that complex? No they aren't. I'm not sure where you get the idea they are.

Secondly inerrancy only applies to the original manuscripts and does not apply to all translations. However that cannot be used to disavow what we do have. We literally have thousands of ancient manuscripts that clearly set to rights that what we have is very close to what was written and there is little to dispute.

Certainly translation from the Greek or Hebrew can lose a bit of clarity when translated into other languages. We all know that translating from one language into another is not always accurate to the original words. One of the best examples of this comes from Christ's questions to Peter. "Do you love me" and Peter's responses. The Greek words are different and offer real clarity. Yet they are simply translated as love. The thing is we have scholars and linguists today that help us with these things.

We can ve assured that what we do hold in our hands is an accurate representation of the inerrent scriptures and doesn’t alter significantly from originals. Not enough anyway to say that it cannot be trusted.

You also misunderstand the literalist view. The literalist view simply holds that we understand scripture literally unless it clearly isn't. Its actually takes into consideration all the elements of language and writing. A literalist will not say everything in scripture must be taken literally. That actually violates literary rules and understanding. When Christ said he stands at the door and knocks, we know he's not actually standing at a literal door and knocking. When God says he gathers his children under his wings we know that it does not mean God has actual wings with feathers etc.

I don't know what you mean by interpretation. What do we need to interpret? Does not scripture speak for itself? I don't understand this my interpretation is different than your interpretation stuff. That makes no sense.

I think there is actually more fear from the liberal side of biblical interpretation. A side that says we cannot trust scripture to be inerrant or literal because it messes with our worldview and I personal belief systems. The world might laugh at us or make fun of us or reject us because we actually believe what it says. That puts you in a position to out more stock into a fallible man's belief rather than an infallible God.
 
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rjs330

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It's a question of whether you accept the Bible because you have faith in Christ, or you have faith in Christ because you read about it in the Bible.

Paul wrote beautifully about this. Most people accept the Bible because they have faith in Christ. They hear about Christ first then they believe. After that they are start accepting the scriptures.

Although today there most certainly have been people to have found faith in Christ because they did read and study the Bible.

So I am not sure what you are trying to convey here. I found faith in Christ by hearing the preaching at a young age. I was no Bible scholar.

My faith in his word came later as I really began to study it.
 
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MarkSB

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I dont understand the obsession with error vs perfection.

Seems to me the question should be applicability: the different ways that the various books should be understood. Which books describe a whole peoples evolving understanding of God. Which invite an individual relationship with God. Which are instructions for running a church. And so on.

Yeah, I agree. And I imagine that when many of the authors wrote the books, this is what they no doubt had in mind. I think the bible offers a very different and more encouraging perspective when viewed in this way vs. viewing it strictly as a literal history book.


That said, if inerrancy remains crucial - so to speak - for faith, then theres trouble ahead. It seems highly likely that certain aspects of the Bible result from purely human decision making.

It is rather unfortunate (and ironic) that in their vehement defense of a literal interpretation of scripture, some Christians seem more than willing to compromise their morality and integrity.

I don't think it's usually a conscious decision - and I think the people who do it really believe they are defending what is good and right. I took a somewhat literalist view of scripture for quite some time... however, I never vehemently defended genocide or the slaughtering of children, and those positions are, needless to say, difficult for me to understand.

I think, for me at least, part of the motivation for not putting aside the literalist interpretations was the fear that the whole thing (faith in God in general) would just fall apart. This is the danger that the literalists preach, but it isn't true. When I look at non-literalist Christians, I see Christians who seem to have a deeper faith than the one that is put forth by fundamentalist Christians. Fundamentalism, in my opinion, seems to promote a more superficial faith. I'm not stating that as a universal truth, of course - but at the extreme end of the spectrum that certainly seems to be the case.
 
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MarkSB

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First of all there is no fear. That's kind of a silly thing to claim. You completely misunderstand the issue and the position.

Well, I don't know anyone's heart, so I can't say what your specific motivations are. But I believe that for at least some literalists, fear is part of the equation. That's not to say that it's the sole motivation, or that it's a necessary component of believing in bible literalism.

I don't know what you mean by the complexities of scripture. Are the scriptures that complex? No they aren't. I'm not sure where you get the idea they are.

There are books upon books which go into various interpretations of scripture. If scripture wasn't complex, theology as we know it wouldn't exist. People go to churches to have a (hopefully) trained preacher dive deeper into scriptures so they can gain a better understanding of their meaning. Bringing scriptures back to their original language will often reveal greater depth and things which weren't immediately apparent (or apparent at all) in the translated text. Understanding cultural context and Jewish custom also adds to the understanding of scripture, far above and beyond what is immediately apparent in the text.

Sure, there are parts of scripture which can be easily understood through a "plain reading" of the text. Love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. But the "plain reading" principle cannot be applied to every part of the bible (I would say it cannot be applied to large parts of the bible), and someone who has studied biblical scholarship I assume would understand that. I would say that the story from Samuel that was referenced by Graham falls firmly into the realm of text from the bible which cannot be understood at face value - because it raises questions about the nature of God, the cultural context in which it was written, etc.

Another perfect example are the verses in 1 Timothy which forbid women from speaking in the church. Understanding the circumstances in the Ephesian church at that time can provide great insight into why Paul may have said some of the things that he said, and why some of his words appear to be in conflict* with other parts of scripture. These things are not immediately apparent when the text from 1 Timothy is taken at face value. When Paul wrote his letters, he didn't know that they would be assembled into a book and interpreted by some as universal church law. With those thoughts in mind, don't you think it is quite disingenuous to say that the cultural context should not be considered, as some interpretations of the text promote? To say that the cultural context should not be considered is to suppress knowledge and God-given intelligence and inquisitiveness. It is only an attempt to control.

And to be clear - I don't know what your position is on women speaking and teaching in the church. But it is a prime example of how the complexities of scripture can lead to different interpretations, and how more closely examining the text (rather than simply taking it at "face value") can provide more clues to the underlying purpose, meaning, and implications of what was being said.


Secondly inerrancy only applies to the original manuscripts and does not apply to all translations. However that cannot be used to disavow what we do have. We literally have thousands of ancient manuscripts that clearly set to rights that what we have is very close to what was written and there is little to dispute.
Certainly translation from the Greek or Hebrew can lose a bit of clarity when translated into other languages. We all know that translating from one language into another is not always accurate to the original words. One of the best examples of this comes from Christ's questions to Peter. "Do you love me" and Peter's responses. The Greek words are different and offer real clarity. Yet they are simply translated as love. The thing is we have scholars and linguists today that help us with these things.

I think you're contradicting yourself when you say that scripture is not complex and can be understood through a plain reading, but then you say we have scholars and linguists for translation and interpretation. Which is it? Scholars and linguists aren't needed for books that can be understood through a plain reading.

We can ve assured that what we do hold in our hands is an accurate representation of the inerrent scriptures and doesn’t alter significantly from originals. Not enough anyway to say that it cannot be trusted.
You also misunderstand the literalist view. The literalist view simply holds that we understand scripture literally unless it clearly isn't. Its actually takes into consideration all the elements of language and writing. A literalist will not say everything in scripture must be taken literally. That actually violates literary rules and understanding. When Christ said he stands at the door and knocks, we know he's not actually standing at a literal door and knocking. When God says he gathers his children under his wings we know that it does not mean God has actual wings with feathers etc.

Literalists (or more accurately, fundamentalists) believe that every word in the bible was basically sanctioned by God, as if He were holding the pen Himself, do they not? That is where the difference lies. The bible makes much more sense when you view it as writings made by people, which depict how a culture developed and wrestled with their religion and their relationship with God over time, ultimately culminating in the coming of His chosen one, who would show the true way.

Don't you think it is very possible that in the bible, God lets the people tell the story?

I don't know what you mean by interpretation. What do we need to interpret? Does not scripture speak for itself? I don't understand this my interpretation is different than your interpretation stuff. That makes no sense.

I think there is actually more fear from the liberal side of biblical interpretation. A side that says we cannot trust scripture to be inerrant or literal because it messes with our worldview and I personal belief systems. The world might laugh at us or make fun of us or reject us because we actually believe what it says. That puts you in a position to out more stock into a fallible man's belief rather than an infallible God.

I don't think worldview needs to be even considered to see the fundamentalist's interpretation as being flawed. The bible itself begs to be interpreted in a manner which is contrary to the fundamentalist view. A bible that is interpreted through the lens of fundamentalist inerrancy is rife with contradictions - with the violence that the OT claims to be sanctioned by God being a prime example. When you put the fundamentalist view aside and interpret the bible on its own terms, you begin to see the story of a people and how their view of God developed over time.



*Link here, since it wouldn't let me put it in the middle of the text:
 
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First of all there is no fear. That's kind of a silly thing to claim. You completely misunderstand the issue and the position. I don't know what you mean by the complexities of scripture. Are the scriptures that complex? No they aren't. I'm not sure where you get the idea they are.
I do not mean to trod across your valiant defense of your Scriptures, but I would think that any God worthy of worship would be slightly more complex than what the finest scholars might deduce.
 
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durangodawood

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....I think, for me at least, part of the motivation for not putting aside the literalist interpretations was the fear that the whole thing (faith in God in general) would just fall apart. This is the danger that the literalists preach, but it isn't true. When I look at non-literalist Christians, I see Christians who seem to have a deeper faith than the one that is put forth by fundamentalist Christians. Fundamentalism, in my opinion, seems to promote a more superficial faith. I'm not stating that as a universal truth, of course - but at the extreme end of the spectrum that certainly seems to be the case.
Literalist faith seem brittle to me. Susceptible to all manner of challenges, from scholarship to personal good sense and moral insight. I also hear people say it degrades the book into something of an idol, and that does ring true.
 
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I dont understand the obsession with error vs perfection.

What is the scripture wrong about?
Seems to me the question should be applicability: the different ways that the various books should be understood. Which books describe a whole peoples evolving understanding of God. Which invite an individual relationship with God. Which are instructions for running a church. And so on.

The scriptures are not about a people's evolving understanding of God. The scriptures are about God revealing himself to people and their response to him. Its about who God actually is and who mankind actually is. Its about showing how mankind cannot have a relationship with God because he is holy and we are wicked. Its about God making a way for us to have that relationship with him and the sacrifice he made to do so.

It is also about the history of God doing that, all paving the way for that to happen.

It also is a book of what God wants for his church and how his people should be.
 
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rjs330

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Yeah, I agree. And I imagine that when many of the authors wrote the books, this is what they no doubt had in mind. I think the bible offers a very different and more encouraging perspective when viewed in this way vs. viewing it strictly as a literal history book.

Scripture is both. It is a spiritual guidebook and it is history.
Well, I don't know anyone's heart, so I can't say what your specific motivations are. But I believe that for at least some literalists, fear is part of the equation. That's not to say that it's the sole motivation, or that it's a necessary component of believing in bible literalism.

You should do more asking then. I've know literalists for years and fear has nothing to do with their positions.
There are books upon books which go into various interpretations of scripture. If scripture wasn't complex, theology as we know it wouldn't exist. People go to churches to have a (hopefully) trained preacher dive deeper into scriptures so they can gain a better understanding of their meaning. Bringing scriptures back to their original language will often reveal greater depth and things which weren't immediately apparent (or apparent at all) in the translated text. Understanding cultural context and Jewish custom also adds to the understanding of scripture, far above and beyond what is immediately apparent in the text.

What you are talking about is clarity, not interpretation. As i learned in my training and understanding of the languages, it is not about interpretation but about clarity. You could read all of scripture without any of those books and understand it well enough. All those books and commentaries and study guides and whatever else do is offer an individuals thoughts on tge scriptures. Often offering a deeper insight and clarity of tge original languages. But they are not offering different interpretations. You make it sound like the scriptures can have completely different meanings. As if there is no meaning but different people assign to it. In essence it has no real meaning because we all interpret it differently. Thats nonsense. There might be things that are hard to understand sometimes. Peter says that about Paul's writings. But that doesnt mean we can all interpret it however we want. In fact he says that is very bad.

Jewish customs come FROM scripture when scripture is involved. Understanding scripture helps understand Jewish customs. Not tge other way around.
But the "plain reading" principle cannot be applied to every part of the bible (I would say it cannot be applied to large parts of the bible), and someone who has studied biblical scholarship I assume would understand that. I would say that the story from Samuel that was referenced by Graham falls firmly into the realm of text from the bible which cannot be understood at face value - because it raises questions about the nature of God, the cultural context in which it was written, etc.

We should always start with plain reading. If you want to go deeper and don't know the original languages we do have books that can help. But those books help in clarifying things for us. They don't completely alter the meaning for us.

Yes the scripture should be taken at face value. Just because you can't wrap your personal belief system around it, doesnt mean it can't be. God doesn't a I ways explain his reasons for doing what he does. Thats where faith and trust come in. I don't have faith and trust in God because he does what I think is right. I have faith and trust in God because he IS God and I am not. His ways are not my ways and his thoughts are not my thoughts and I'm okay with that. Sure, can I acknowledge that I don't understand, yeah. Can I ask the questions? Sure. But will I get tge answer in this life? Probably not. And I'm okay with too, because I believe in Him and I know that whatever he does is right and just even if I don't understand it. Just because you struggle with Samuel doesnt mean its not accurate and true. It just means you don't understand it. God has never asked you to understand all his ways. If you struggle with that then that is between you and him.
 
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rjs330

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I think you're contradicting yourself when you say that scripture is not complex and can be understood through a plain reading, but then you say we have scholars and linguists for translation and interpretation. Which is it? Scholars and linguists aren't needed for books that can be understood through a plain reading.

Im not contradicting at all. Scholars and linguists help with clarity and depth. They do not alter the the meaning. We have very good translations. Scholars are involved in that. Very smart and intelligent linguists who translate for us. We can read the scriptures just fine and understand them well enough. When you go deeper with the languages you will find they do not completely alter the text and assign a completely different meaning to it. It helps with clarity, but it doesn't alter meaning. If tgat were not true we couldn't actually read the Bible in any language because we couldn't trust any translation. We would all have to be fluent in original Hebrew and Greek. And that's nonsense.
With those thoughts in mind, don't you think it is quite disingenuous to say that the cultural context should not be considered, as some interpretations of the text promote? To say that the cultural context should not be considered is to suppress knowledge and God-given intelligence and inquisitiveness. It is only an attempt to control.

The problem is that "cultural context" is often used to dismiss the teachings. Its often used like, "we don't need to believe or follow that because it's just cultural". That dismisses the authority and inspiration of scripture. You also have to allow that scripture interprets scripture. If you read one thing and then later read something else, then its time to do bit of studying. Thats why Paul told Timothy to study the word, so he could rightly divide it.

Plain reading of scripture dies not mean casual reading. It means studying it. Knowing it. Learning it. Thats what we should be doing. And too many of us don't. We go to church on Sunday, hear a pastor teach us some things and never pick up the book again. You won't understand or learn much that way.
Literalists (or more accurately, fundamentalists) believe that every word in the bible was basically sanctioned by God,

No they don't. Thats a completely false understanding. God did not dictate scripture and the writer was not his secretary.
The bible makes much more sense when you view it as writings made by people, which depict how a culture developed and wrestled with their religion and their relationship with God over time, ultimately culminating in the coming of His chosen one, who would show the true way.

The writers wrote under the inspiration of God. Which means what they wrote is true. God wanted tgem to write what they wrote. Yes its about a peoples relationship with God. What God told them, how God guided them, how they responded to him and how he responded to them. How God worked in his people to eventually bring the messiah. It is all true. And Gid inspired them to write the truth. The good, the bad and the ugly.
A bible that is interpreted through the lens of fundamentalist inerrancy is rife with contradictions - with the violence that the OT claims to be sanctioned by God being a prime example. When you put the fundamentalist view aside and interpret the bible on its own terms, you begin to see the story of a people and how their view of God developed over time.

No its not. There are no contradictions. Its the liberal views tgat has tge world view in mind instead of tge Biblical one. The view of God himself is at stake here. I often hear from the liberal view, God would never..." Well how do you know? The scripture clearly states he did. It also states he will. Is the scripture lying? Is the writer telling a falsehood? If that is the case they certainly are not inspired. Were they just mistaken? If that is tge case then the writer cannot be trusted with anything they wrote because they could be mistaken about everything. And once again they were not inspired by God to write mistakes.

You know its okay to wrestle with God over his actions. Question him, wrestle with him. But always know he is God and he is in control. He would never act unrighteously. So whatever he does and whatever he commands is righteous and just. Even if you or I don't understand it. That is what faith is about.

When you take the Bible on its own terms you don't need to try and offer excuses for God's words, commands or actions as some sort of cultural misunderstanding. We should have faith in the Gid who IS and not in the God we want.
 
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rjs330

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Sure, it's not murder when God/the military/the government does it. Killing people in general is murder except when God, the government/military or someone I like does it. Yeah, it's been explained and excused.


Who has said it does? Certainly not I. Who are you to tell me that I don't care about "the innocent"? Why don't you not tell falsehoods about me?


He neither forbid nor commanded ME to protect someone else. He told ME that this world is of little concern compared to the kingdom to come. When I protect or seek to protect others, it is by MY own volition, my own free will.


What is it with you guys who focus on women getting raped all the time? It is horrific whether it happens to a man, a woman or a child, imo. Does stopping rape and murder necessitate killing? You imply that this is the only way. You also are implying that this would be how I show love - do you believe that? No, this is a deflection from my actual point to make this all about some terribly distorted version of me.


And as I recall, Lot offering his daughters up to be raped and murdered in lieu of the strangers was considered so virtuous that he was spared from destruction.

Why would it be murder if God commanded it? Not all killing is murder.

When you say stuff like the Bible doesn't support self defense or defense of your family, you are saying the innocent don't matter by the evil doer does. What else does it mean if that's not it?

He commanded you to love others. Protecting the innocent is part of that. Do you think the good Samaritan is only about helping people after they have been robbed and left for dead? And yes it is up to you. Are you saying you shouldn't help or wouldn't help?

I use a horrific scenario fir a reason. You didn't answer the question. Why? You come across a woman being raped and murdered what do you do to save her? Calling the police wont help, she'll be dead before they get there. Can you wrestle him? Yes, then you and her are dead. You did nothing. Your only realistic option is to kill him. What do you do? Its most certainly okay if you are a pacifist. There are those out there. And im not saying you should not be one. Its okay if you are.

This really isnt about you. Its about your statements. Statements that seem to say that all killing is murder. If that us not what you are saying then say so. Give us an example when killing is not murder.

You recall the story of Lot incorrectly. The Bible dies not say it was a virtuous thing he did. No where does it say he was righteous for doing it. There was no one there found righteous. God was simply merciful to Lot for the sake of Abraham. So don't twist scripture.
 
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rjs330

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I do not mean to trod across your valiant defense of your Scriptures, but I would think that any God worthy of worship would be slightly more complex than what the finest scholars might deduce.

God himself said that his ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts. So yes we cannot fully comprehend God in our current state.

God has revealed himself to us in scrulipture. What he hasn't done is explain everything there is to explain. He has told us about himself but he hasn't told us the why he has done everything he has done. We couldn't comprehend it anyway. We can't comprehend a completely holy, incorruptible, righteous, loving and just God that is all knowing and all powerful. Thats impossible.

What he has chosen to reveal is what he has chosen to reveal. He does not answer to you or me. We answer to him.

Scripture is not so complex that it is beyond understanding. Those that claim so, are no different than those who taught only the priests can understand and the regular folks were not allowed to read it. Scholars are not the only people who can understand scripture. Paul and Peter wrote to the people most often. Letters read to the people. Obviously some were written to individuals such as Timothy in guidance to overseers. But most, including the gospels were written for all.
 
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BCP1928

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Abraham didn't fail
It depends on how you look at it. God tested him by ordering him to make a blood sacrifice of his own son. Abraham showed himself willing to do it and God never spoke to him again.
 
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