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The law, the commandments, and Christians.
- Thread starter Xeno.of.athens
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Not really. There are several ECFs to choose from. I’m from the camp that does not believe that the apocrypha is inspired.
There is no preponderance of the evidence. In fact the people to whom the OT was given to do not recognize the apocrypha as inspired.
You don’t think that the reformation was necessary? The corruption of the CC had to come to an end. The reformation was inevitable and logical.
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I read the Bible and go to church not just read the Bible. I’m also a deacon so I teach and learn at my church. Do you read the Bible and attend church too?
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fhansen
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The evidence is about what the eastern and western Christian churches actually did. We don't strictly follow the Jewish religion even though it foreshadows Christianity, just as Jesus neither danced or mourned to anyone else's tunes (Matt 11:16-19). And, again, the Hebrew canon probaly wasn't even finalized until after Jesus time here.
Yes, and teach as well. Again, however, it's not only about you or me but about the Body, a corporate and universal faith and understanding received at the beginning. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism".
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Which does not guarantee that there is no error but just merely how your church built up your tradition.
But actually we did early on. In fact one of Jerome’s arguments related to the Jews acceptance of the apocrypha. The councils also used the testimony of the Jewish historian Josephus. I still can’t post quotes.
But you assume that one Lord, one faith, one baptism refers to your church. It does not. Once again, the body of Christ is the sum total of believers not just the adherents of a particular church.
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LOL.
Valletta
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Incorrect. Different groups of Jews had different opinions as to what constituted Holy Scripture during the time of Christ on earth. Only later did one group become the vast majority of Jews, a group that rejected Jesus and the Gospels and the Deuterocanonicals. Those who followed Christ had no obligation to follow those Jews, and instead decided upon a 73 book Bible in the late 300s. All European Bibles were 73 books, even in the same order decided upon by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, until reformation times.
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Valletta
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Jerome footnoted that the Jews rejected the deuterocanonicals, as any good Bible scholar would have done. Jerome flat out stated he followed the decision of the Catholic Church and that he should not be attacked for doing so. That the councils used or considered the testimony of Josephus as well as others is quite proper, the ultimate decision by the Catholic Church was to establish a 73 book canon.
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The fact remains that Jerome had the same problem that the Jews had with the apocrypha which is that they were not recognized as scripture. In fact the books were written during the intertestamental period between Malachi and the birth of Jesus were most everyone agrees that there were no prophetic utterances. Josephus believed the same.
Even within the Catholic Church during the reformation there was no unity regarding the apocrypha. For example, Cardinal Cajetan, who opposed Luther, wrote a commentary in 1518 titled “A Commentary on All the Historical Books of the Old Testament” in which he did not include the apocrypha.
A second example would Cardinal Ximenes who made a distinction between the apocrypha and the Old Testament in his book “Complutensian Polyglot” (1514-1517).
So there was no unity in the Catholic Church regarding the apocrypha which is why it was decided in the counter reformation council of Trent to make it official and have a 73 book Bible.
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Valletta
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Jerome had no problem, Jerome accepted the deuterocanonicals as per the judgement of the Catholic Church. Let me add that the Catholic Church chose the Greek Septuagint because the Apostles used it. Jerome noted the decision of the group of Jews as any Biblical scholar would, but left no doubt that he was following the decision of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church made it clear that there was no reason to follow teachings of a group of Jews that had rejected the Gospels and rejected Jesus. Martin Luther has a problem, not Jerome, in that he tried to get a number of books dropped from the Bible. Luther was successful with getting some books, but not all he wanted, dropped from the Protestant version of the Bible. Seven of the 73 were dropped.
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Don’t ignore historical fact. Even John of Damascus in the eighth century agreed with Athanasius and Jerome that the books of the apocrypha were not canonical and should be placed in a separate category.
The problem with that thought is that the Septuagint was translated by Alexandrian Jews which translated many books to Greek in addition to the actual canon. The Jews never accepted it as depicting the canon and the apostles and Jesus were Jewish so what does that tell you.
Secondly there is no evidence that the Septuagint initially contained the apocrypha or that Jesus and the epistles used it. For one, the earliest MSS of the Septuagint dates to the 4th century which does not show that the apocrypha was part of the Septuagint before then. Also, none of the NT writers quoted them which adds to the evidence that they might not have been part of the septuagint or that the apostles and Jesus agreed with the Jews that the apocrypha was not scripture.
The seventh book ecumenical council accepted the canons of the council of Trullo which had accepted the canon as proposed by Athanasius and Amphilochius which rejected the apocrypha. Again there was no ecumenical consensus regarding the apocrypha as canonical.
Luther thought the same as the two Cardinals that I posted as examples, and you ignored, in my last post (353). The books of the apocrypha did not drop from the Protestant canon as you claim but were merely relegated to a different section just as Jerome had done in the vulgate. The newer translations do not include the apocrypha.
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fhansen
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The fact remains that the Catholic and Eastern churches shouldn't and don't care what Jerome or Josephus has to say about the canon. Luther and other Refomers contested the canonicity of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation in the New Testament. Does that fact mean that we can and should also doubt the inspiration of those books now?
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But wait so now historical evidence no longer matters to you? Sweet, there goes your “my church is the original church” argument.
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fhansen
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History apparently impresses you only when it serves your purposes, which the NT controversy does not. The truth is that, when it comes to the OT we've presented opposing historical positions rather than ignore history.
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Because we are presented with opposing views is the very reason why you can’t be dogmatic about your claims. As a historian I run into that occasionally which merely means that more information is needed to make an objective interpretation. Historiography is important.
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fhansen
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So you're really going to maintain that disagreement on truth means the truth cannot be determined? Again, we have a situation where figures in history contested the inspiration and canonicity of certain New Testament books. According to your methodology, we must discount those books as being inspired.
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