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Just a reminder. Christians started the war on Christmas

Delvianna

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Note: Due to some kind of bug on the forums, if I quote this post and it includes the links within "Link 1" and "Link 2", it encounters an error and refuses to post this reply. So I had to edit the quote to remove the links themselves (so it only says "Link 1" and "Link 2" as simple text), but someone can go back to the original post to look at them. But anyway, let's talk about them.
I gave other places to actually research because I don't have the time to write a detailed thought out response and give exact information, so I gave a general answer. I did the same with your reply to me without giving this a point by point breakdown. When it comes to sol, scholars assume it refers to sol due to certain information like timing, linguistics and historical context. But I don't have the time to give all of that citation.

So I'm going to bow out of this conversation entirely and ignore future responses from everyone. I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time to adequately debate this. As I said earlier, everyone accounts for themselves. So your research is your own. Once my cat stops crying in pain and bumping into things, I might revisit this. But I just can't right now.
 
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JSRG

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I gave other places to actually research because I don't have the time to write a detailed thought out response and give exact information, so I gave a general answer.

Obviously, there are things that are higher priorities than arguing on the Internet. A message is not automatically owed a response. Still, the problem, is how those other places you cited offer no evidence to support your claims about Ra. One is just a non-scholarly source making a claim without evidence, and the other, while a scholarly source, doesn't say anything that supports your claim, at least none that I could find, and indeed the fact it doesn't would seem to diminish it (if there was such a tradition of bringing in palm trees to the home to celebrate Ra, wouldn't this scholarly article about the usage of palm trees and palm branches in religions, primarily the Egyptian religion, mention it?).

This is, unfortunately, very common in these sorts of things. People point to such-and-such custom of Christmas and claim it was co-opted by pagans. Setting aside the problem that there is frequently a very lengthy period of time between the alleged pagan custom and the start of the Christmas one (again, Christmas trees started around the year 1500, so we can be pretty sure they weren't taking it from some ancient Egyptian practice that had been dead for a very long time), often no one is able to provide evidence of the pagan custom to begin with.

I did the same with your reply to me without giving this a point by point breakdown. When it comes to sol, scholars assume it refers to sol due to certain information like timing, linguistics and historical context. But I don't have the time to give all of that citation.

If you are talking about the Chronograph of 354, it is certainly plausible, even probable, that "Natalis Invicti" on December 25 referred to Sol and thus was a mention of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti in its "Natalis Invicti". However, it isn't certain, and thus it is possible that the holiday's origin comes even later than that; that is an argument Stephen Hijmans (professor of Roman Art and Archeology), mentions in this article:

Regardless, the point is that even if the Chronograph of 354 was referring to a celebration of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, it also refers to a celebration of Christmas. It therefore provides no evidence of any celebration of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti prior to Christmas. And if it didn't predate Christmas, then the whole idea that Christmas's date was taken from this other holiday collapses.

There is also some evidence, albeit disputed, for a belief in a December 25 going back earlier, possibly to the early third century or earlier (I wanted to post more on this, but unfortunately Christian Forums presently has some kind of bug that refuses to post my message if I include certain links). This is clearly prior to Dies Solis Natalis Invicti. But even if we were to disregard those and accept the Chronograph's mention of Christmas sa the first recorded instance, we still run into the same bottom line: We have no references to this festival prior to a time we know Christmas was celebrated. And if it came afterwards, as is certainly possible, if there was any imitation it would have been the other way around, with them copying Christmas.
 
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Delvianna

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Obviously, there are things that are higher priorities than arguing on the Internet. A message is not automatically owed a response. Still, the problem, is how those other places you cited offer no evidence to support your claims about Ra. One is just a non-scholarly source making a claim without evidence, and the other, while a scholarly source, doesn't say anything that supports your claim, at least none that I could find, and indeed the fact it doesn't would seem to diminish it (if there was such a tradition of bringing in palm trees to the home to celebrate Ra, wouldn't this scholarly article about the usage of palm trees and palm branches in religions, primarily the Egyptian religion, mention it?).

This is, unfortunately, very common in these sorts of things. People point to such-and-such custom of Christmas and claim it was co-opted by pagans. Setting aside the problem that there is frequently a very lengthy period of time between the alleged pagan custom and the start of the Christmas one (again, Christmas trees started around the year 1500, so we can be pretty sure they weren't taking it from some ancient Egyptian practice that had been dead for a very long time), often no one is able to provide evidence of the pagan custom to begin with.



If you are talking about the Chronograph of 354, it is certainly plausible, even probable, that "Natalis Invicti" on December 25 referred to Sol and thus was a mention of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti in its "Natalis Invicti". However, it isn't certain, and thus it is possible that the holiday's origin comes even later than that; that is an argument Stephen Hijmans (professor of Roman Art and Archeology), mentions in this article:

Regardless, the point is that even if the Chronograph of 354 was referring to a celebration of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, it also refers to a celebration of Christmas. It therefore provides no evidence of any celebration of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti prior to Christmas. And if it didn't predate Christmas, then the whole idea that Christmas's date was taken from this other holiday collapses.

There is also some evidence, albeit disputed, for a belief in a December 25 going back earlier, possibly to the early third century or earlier (I wanted to post more on this, but unfortunately Christian Forums presently has some kind of bug that refuses to post my message if I include certain links). This is clearly prior to Dies Solis Natalis Invicti. But even if we were to disregard those and accept the Chronograph's mention of Christmas sa the first recorded instance, we still run into the same bottom line: We have no references to this festival prior to a time we know Christmas was celebrated. And if it came afterwards, as is certainly possible, if there was any imitation it would have been the other way around, with them copying Christmas.
Bro, I have said TWICE now, I don't have time for this. No empathy for my situation huh? Just main focus on replying to me, wanting to be right, and reply with giant responses of text? Unbelievable. Tear apart my lack of evidence, go for it. I've told you multiple times why. I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME. You are more concerned with being right and posting your opinion, to make sure all your arguments are met while you ignore my reason why my lack of evidence is falling through the cracks. No empathy, no understanding, you just want your point to be out there. Bravo. Congratulations. Consider that you won the argument. I don't have time for this, or to deal with inconsiderate people either. Good-bye.
 
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JSRG

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Bro, I have said TWICE now, I don't have time for this. No empathy for my situation huh? Just main focus on replying to me, wanting to be right, and reply with giant responses of text? Unbelievable. Tear apart my lack of evidence, go for it. I've told you multiple times why. I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME. You are more concerned with being right and posting your opinion, to make sure all your arguments are met while you ignore my reason why my lack of evidence is falling through the cracks. No empathy, no understanding, you just want your point to be out there. Bravo. Congratulations. Consider that you won the argument. I don't have time for this, or to deal with inconsiderate people either. Good-bye.
I don't think my post was not offering empathy, though obviously I can only see it from my point of view--I meant it to actually be the opposite. I opened my post acknowledging that I had no problem if you wanted to stop responding, hence my statement of "there are things that are higher priorities than arguing on the Internet" and "a message is not automatically owed a response" which was me attempting to offer empathy in regards to explaining why I wasn't going to insist you continue to respond. (in some fairness, that point could have been better stated by me--I wrote more on that but felt it was redundant, so I clipped off some of it, but in retrospect maybe it should have been kept) I was fully expecting you to drop it as you indicated and that would be the end of it. The reason I wrote so much in reply was because you in your post chose to reiterate or make new claims and I therefore thought it was appropriate to respond to them, and--for the benefit of others reading--allow me to better clarify some things I said.

Again, I'm not insisting you continue to reply. I just felt that if you were going to bring up the points again, I should respond.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Critics:

“What on earth would compel a person to post images of them beating up a universally beloved figure?” someone else chimed in.

“So warming to see the symbol of Christmas generosity and cheer get beaten to a bloody pulp!” another person wrote.

Indiana state Sen. Chris Garten's response:

“Lots of intolerance, swearing, and outrage on display over a few AI pics I had a blast designing with my kids,” Garten said. “Some of you clowns are just insufferable. Hopefully your negativity stays in the comments and not directed at your families.”

“Merry Christmas, snowflakes!” he added.
 
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Tuur

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essentialsaltes

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And this is in Kitchen Sink because?
Kitchen Sink covers pretty much anything, by design. It's not political, it's certainly not news. No real ethics involved. Seems a pretty good place to park it.
 
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Nithavela

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The war on christmas is just a manifestation of some christian's desperate desire to be martyrs for their faith. Of course without all the nasty business that usually comes with it. It's martyrdom light. Hold the suffering, just the (self-)righteousness, please.
 
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