• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Can You Sin in Heaven?—Apologist Sean McDowell Gives Surprising View

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
185,949
68,409
Woods
✟6,197,045.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Author and apologist Dr. Sean McDowellhas researched and discussed many aspects of the Christian life—including heaven. McDowell recently answered one of the toughest topics and questions with an approachable truth.

“Would you say that [people in heaven] can’t sin?” asked an audience member at a recent event.

Sean McDowell Says in Heaven, We’ll ‘See Sin for Exactly What It Is’

As an apologetics professor at Biola University, Sean McDowell speaks at schools, conferences, and universities. After taking a question from the audience from a recent event, McDowell jumped into a conversation about heaven.

Continued below.
 

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
11,266
6,569
Utah
✟887,667.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Author and apologist Dr. Sean McDowellhas researched and discussed many aspects of the Christian life—including heaven. McDowell recently answered one of the toughest topics and questions with an approachable truth.

“Would you say that [people in heaven] can’t sin?” asked an audience member at a recent event.

Sean McDowell Says in Heaven, We’ll ‘See Sin for Exactly What It Is’

As an apologetics professor at Biola University, Sean McDowell speaks at schools, conferences, and universities. After taking a question from the audience from a recent event, McDowell jumped into a conversation about heaven.

Continued below.
There will be no sin in heaven.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
11,266
6,569
Utah
✟887,667.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If you take away our free will, are we really the same person?
How can we make a free will choice to Love God and others with our whole being if we do not have free will?
First comes temptation ... then the fall. There will be no temptation to sin when we get to heaven ... there is no temptation to sin in heaven.

If satan had not tempted Adam & Eve ... would they have sinned? No

If satan had not tempted the angels to sin would they have sinned? No

I don't want to sin ... but I sometimes yield to the temptation of satan and I do sin .... and I ask for forgiveness and repentance ... thank you Lord Jesus for your love and grace. AMEN!!

Looking forward to the day this no longer happens and won't even cross my mind. AMEN!!!

Our freewill in heaven and going forward will be for good only. Our will being in line with that of the creator.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
43,700
13,823
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟917,922.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
First comes temptation ... then the fall. There will be no temptation to sin when we get to heaven ... there is no temptation to sin in heaven.

If satan had not tempted Adam & Eve ... would they have sinned? No

If satan had not tempted the angels to sin would they have sinned? No

I don't want to sin ... but I sometimes yield to the temptation of satan and I do sin .... and I ask for forgiveness and repentance ... thank you Lord Jesus for your love and grace. AMEN!!

Looking forward to the day this no longer happens and won't even cross my mind. AMEN!!!

Our freewill in heaven and going forward will be for good only. Our will being in line with that of the creator.
I've sometimes wondered about this myself. I mean, where was Satan before he was in the garden tempting Eve? He was Lucifer, one of the highest-ranking angels in Heaven, and was tempted to try to take God's place. A third of all the other angels agreed with him. It didn't work out so well for any of them, and are now destined to end up in the eternal flames in the end--all after originally being in Heaven.
It makes me wonder if any of us after millions of years in Heaven would get to a point where we decide that we want "more", and are tempted to stray off course, and then wind up banished to a lesser creation where a newly created set of living beings would be subject to us trying to lead them away from God.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
11,641
9,680
65
Martinez
✟1,203,030.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Author and apologist Dr. Sean McDowellhas researched and discussed many aspects of the Christian life—including heaven. McDowell recently answered one of the toughest topics and questions with an approachable truth.

“Would you say that [people in heaven] can’t sin?” asked an audience member at a recent event.

Sean McDowell Says in Heaven, We’ll ‘See Sin for Exactly What It Is’

As an apologetics professor at Biola University, Sean McDowell speaks at schools, conferences, and universities. After taking a question from the audience from a recent event, McDowell jumped into a conversation about heaven.

Continued below.
I have a big problem with this persons apologetics especially when it is couched with the current culture. His quote:

“I actually think when we get to heaven, we see sin clearly for exactly what it is,” McDowell argued. “The lure is completely gone.”

This person clearly has no understanding of what Jesus Christ of Nazareth did for humanity and how it is transferred into " incorruption".

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51–53,)

Incorruption means the transformed, immortal state of the resurrection body, which is not subject to death, deterioration, or the effects of sin.

The incorruptible state granted to believers in the New Heaven and New Earth signifies the complete and final eradication of sin, not merely a resistance to it. As explained in scripture, our Father explicitly forbids anything that defiles from entering the eternal city (Revelation 21:27), confirming that sin simply does not exist there, allowing the redeemed to live in a reality of absolute holiness and perfection.

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Be blessed.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,916
1,938
✟1,029,076.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
First comes temptation ... then the fall. There will be no temptation to sin when we get to heaven ... there is no temptation to sin in heaven.
Jesus was “tempted” while here on earth, so why can we not be tempted in heaven and not sin like Christ avoided sinning?
If satan had not tempted Adam & Eve ... would they have sinned? No
What you are saying: “Satan caused Adam and Eve to sin”, which takes the “blame” for their sinning away from them, so how is that what you are saying? Satan did not tell Eve to eat, but Eve did what she was wanting to do and satan helped her to justify what she wanted to do with lies.
If satan had not tempted the angels to sin would they have sinned? No
You do not know that. Why not: “If not satan than someone else?"
I don't want to sin ... but I sometimes yield to the temptation of satan and I do sin .... and I ask for forgiveness and repentance ... thank you Lord Jesus for your love and grace. AMEN!!
Do you know how not to sin?

Have you ever been around a group of Christians who know how to keep from sinning?
Looking forward to the day this no longer happens and won't even cross my mind. AMEN!!!

Our freewill in heaven and going forward will be for good only. Our will being in line with that of the creator.
So is satan (the tempter) here on earth the only reason you sin?
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
11,266
6,569
Utah
✟887,667.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I've sometimes wondered about this myself. I mean, where was Satan before he was in the garden tempting Eve? He was Lucifer, one of the highest-ranking angels in Heaven, and was tempted to try to take God's place. A third of all the other angels agreed with him. It didn't work out so well for any of them, and are now destined to end up in the eternal flames in the end--all after originally being in Heaven.
It makes me wonder if any of us after millions of years in Heaven would get to a point where we decide that we want "more", and are tempted to stray off course, and then wind up banished to a lesser creation where a newly created set of living beings would be subject to us trying to lead them away from God.
God promises there will be no more sin for eternity. We won't be tempted to sin because satan and his minions are destroyed. Like it says ... first comes the temptation (to sin) THEN the fall.

As far as free will goes ... satan and all the angels had that (they made their choice) as far as humanity goes they/we had/have our choice. The choices come about when we are tempted ... satan is the one who instigates temptation not God. It will be impossible for us to sin because we won't be tempted (for eternity)

James 1:13: "When tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone".

Satan was in heaven before he tempted Adam and Eve.
Exalted Angel: Lucifer was a beautiful, wise, "anointed cherub" close to God's throne, as suggested by Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.
He desired God's place and was envious of God's plan to create man in His image, leading to jealousy and rebellion against God's authority.
He wasn't tempted by an external force but by his own internal desires to exalt himself above God,
Sin didn't come from outside; it began with Lucifer's internal desire for worship and power belonging only to God, rooted in his own perfection and freedom of choice.
The "War in Heaven": This rebellion led to open conflict, described in Revelation 12, resulting in Lucifer and his followers being cast out to earth. This heavenly conflict became the backdrop for the struggle between good and evil that plays out on Earth, with Satan tempting humanity to continue his rebellion ... continuing onward until Jesus returns
 
Upvote 0

Hawkins

Member
Site Supporter
Apr 27, 2005
2,754
429
Canada
✟328,249.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Heaven, not only that the angelic temptation is gone but also that we are all "bound by" love. Faith and repentance are a test of one's being correctable. If we are correctable then we can be holy to live with the sin-incompatible God. On the other hand, love is like how you protect your own 5 year old son. You won't do anything to harm him but to protect him at all cost. Sin harms God, there's a reason why loving God is above all commandments because in Heaven we won't sin to harm God but to "protect" Him at all cost.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
11,266
6,569
Utah
✟887,667.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Jesus was “tempted” while here on earth, so why can we not be tempted in heaven and not sin like Christ avoided sinning?

What you are saying: “Satan caused Adam and Eve to sin”, which takes the “blame” for their sinning away from them, so how is that what you are saying? Satan did not tell Eve to eat, but Eve did what she was wanting to do and satan helped her to justify what she wanted to do with lies.

You do not know that. Why not: “If not satan than someone else?"

Do you know how not to sin?

Have you ever been around a group of Christians who know how to keep from sinning?

So is satan (the tempter) here on earth the only reason you sin?
All of Mankind inherits a rebellious nature because of the fall and because we are born into a sinful world ... ALL will indeed sin.

Humans didn't receive a "sinful desire" directly implanted by Satan; instead, they were tempted to choose sin, and the consequences of that choice the sinful nature and became part of their heritage ...

the desire to sin will be gone in heaven because glorified believers will be completely transformed to be like Christ, free from the sinful nature, and in God's presence where sin cannot exist; we will have free will but only to choose what is right and holy, with no temptation or internal pull towards evil. Our nature will be purified, our wills aligned with God's, and the ability to sin will be removed as part of complete redemption, similar to how God Himself cannot sin (no we will not be gods, not suggesting this)

God gave Adam and Eve a clear warning and a choice (free will) .... if you eat of the tree you will die ... satan said you will not surely die. Eve believed a lie (deceived). Eve allowed Satan's lie to overshadow God's truth, believing Satan that she wouldn't die but become wise like God. There won't be any lies in heaven.

John 1
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.

We are constantly being sanctified by the Lord, with His help we can do much better but we will never be perfect (without sin) until Jesus returns

True sinless perfection is only achieved at the Second Coming when believers are glorified, but this doesn't negate the present call to grow in Christ by the Holy Spirit, striving for character transformation, and being "perfect" (complete) in Him now*,* through faith, even while acknowledging our ongoing struggle with sin until the end. It's about a present, empowered process of sanctification, not a future, human-achieved state, emphasizing dependence on Christ for completion.

** Imputed Righteousness: Through faith in Jesus, believers are clothed in His perfect righteousness, making them legally perfect in God's eyes.

Philippians 1:6

AMP
I am convinced and confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will [continue to] perfect and complete it until the day of Christ Jesus [the time of His return].

"Jesus was “tempted” while here on earth, so why can we not be tempted in heaven and not sin like Christ avoided sinning?"

True .... tempted by who? Satan .... Satan (the tempter) will be destroyed and God does not tempt anyone. Jesus was the only one who did not fall unto temptation that's why he is our savior ... He never sinned.

Again, satan is the tempter ... NOT God and satan will be completely destroyed and when we are glorified we will have a complete sinless perfection

Now think about this ... If Adam and Eve had never been tempted ... would we be in this mess? No we would not.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,916
1,938
✟1,029,076.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
All of Mankind inherits a rebellious nature because of the fall and because we are born into a sinful world ... ALL will indeed sin.

Humans didn't receive a "sinful desire" directly implanted by Satan; instead, they were tempted to choose sin, and the consequences of that choice the sinful nature and became part of their heritage ...
All mature adults will sin, but that does not require any change in our “nature”, since we had, from scripture, a change in knowledge and not nature, so are you defining this change in “knowledge” as a change in nature?

Scripture does not even suggest man “inherited a new rebellious nature”, but we did gain knowledge of good and evil, so is knowledge itself bad?

Adam and Eve with the nature they had and only one way to sin, sinned, so why would our nature have to change with knowledge of tons of ways to sin, for us to sin?

Eve had a desire to eat from the tree without the serpent speaking up, so now do you want to add Adam and Eve with satan to your list of what caused you to sin?
the desire to sin will be gone in heaven because glorified believers will be completely transformed to be like Christ, free from the sinful nature, and in God's presence where sin cannot exist; we will have free will but only to choose what is right and holy, with no temptation or internal pull towards evil. Our nature will be purified, our wills aligned with God's, and the ability to sin will be removed as part of complete redemption, similar to how God Himself cannot sin (no we will not be gods, not suggesting this)
Is sin the problem or is it unforgiven sin, which is the problem?

What is your answer for why God allows people to sin and why He allowed satan into the Garden?

Everything that is happening and God is allowing to happen seems to be in order to help willing individuals (including Adam and Eve) in fulfilling their earthly objective.
God gave Adam and Eve a clear warning and a choice (free will) .... if you eat of the tree you will die ... satan said you will not surely die. Eve believed a lie (deceived). Eve allowed Satan's lie to overshadow God's truth, believing Satan that she wouldn't die but become wise like God. There won't be any lies in heaven.
Specifically, the Bible gives us the reason Eve ate and it was not because she believed satan, look: “6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.”

It was all what the woman desired and not because she believed satan, but satan did help her carrying out her sinful desire.
John 1
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.

We are constantly being sanctified by the Lord, with His help we can do much better but we will never be perfect (without sin) until Jesus returns

True sinless perfection is only achieved at the Second Coming when believers are glorified, but this doesn't negate the present call to grow in Christ by the Holy Spirit, striving for character transformation, and being "perfect" (complete) in Him now*,* through faith, even while acknowledging our ongoing struggle with sin until the end. It's about a present, empowered process of sanctification, not a future, human-achieved state, emphasizing dependence on Christ for completion.
Read further: 1John 2: 1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Yes! All mature adults do sin, but John talks about in the future and is writing this so they might not sin again and makes future sins strictly contingent with “but if” and not “but when”.
** Imputed Righteousness: Through faith in Jesus, believers are clothed in His perfect righteousness, making them legally perfect in God's eyes.
I do not believe Adam and Eve’s sin was imputed on us (we all sin) and I do not see Christ’s righteousness being imputed on us.
Philippians 1:6

AMP
I am convinced and confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will [continue to] perfect and complete it until the day of Christ Jesus [the time of His return].

"Jesus was “tempted” while here on earth, so why can we not be tempted in heaven and not sin like Christ avoided sinning?"

True .... tempted by who? Satan .... Satan (the tempter) will be destroyed and God does not tempt anyone. Jesus was the only one who did not fall unto temptation that's why he is our savior ... He never sinned.

Again, satan is the tempter ... NOT God and satan will be completely destroyed and when we are glorified we will have a complete sinless perfection

Now think about this ... If Adam and Eve had never been tempted ... would we be in this mess? No we would not.
If the whole problem is with satan in the Garden, then why did God allow satan to be there?

We can see satan’s purpose for being in the Garden and roaming the earth, if we understand man’s objective, so what is man’s objective?
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
43,700
13,823
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟917,922.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
As far as free will goes ... satan and all the angels had that (they made their choice) as far as humanity goes they/we had/have our choice. The choices come about when we are tempted ... satan is the one who instigates temptation not God. It will be impossible for us to sin because we won't be tempted (for eternity)


He desired God's place and was envious of God's plan to create man in His image, leading to jealousy and rebellion against God's authority.
He wasn't tempted by an external force but by his own internal desires to exalt himself above God,
Sin didn't come from outside; it began with Lucifer's internal desire for worship and power belonging only to God, rooted in his own perfection and freedom of choice.
I edited your quote down to the points you made that I wanted to address.
You say Satan made his choice as we also do. But he was able to make that choice and it resulted in him being banished from Heaven. That's what makes me wonder if we'll be able to do the same.
And the jealousy that he experienced for God's position--couldn't we end up feeling that, or something similar? Perhaps a jealousy that someone you really, really disliked here on Earth ended up in Heaven with far more rewards than you? Or maybe you'll be really upset with God that a loved one here on Earth was someone you were certain was saved, but in Heaven you discovered they were lost and are gone forever?
You said that Satan wasn't tempted by an external force but rather his own internal desires. Wouldn't we have internal desires when we're in Heaven?
 
Upvote 0